If we support projects coming out of China, are we supporting the CPC?

[alani123]

There are plenty of cryptocurrency related projects that are sanctioned in china, such as NEO, Qtum, Ontology, NEO, Tron and Bytom. Provided that the communist party of China gets involved in all levels of corporate dealing within their country, I would go as far as to say that those projects wouldn't be an exception by being centered around cryptocurrency. For them to be allowed to operate in China, it'd be necessary (as with all other companies), to continuously be consulting with the government so "the best interest" of the peoples is always accounted for in their actions.

Many western companies have bowed to this type of subversion, accepting the rhetoric of the the communist party, only to be allowed to operate in china and access their economy. Some are still failing to do so, with one of the most notable examples being perhaps Facebook who after years of attempts might have started to give up. But how about the projects in crypto that were created in china, or specifically made for China?

Should the rest of the world accept those projects? And aside of potential profits, should we, as cryptocurrency enthusiasts show support for projects that are cooperating with the Chinese communist party? If you're in crypto because you love freedom, then I think we're all clear on the abuses of the party and their suppression of basic freedoms. How then, would cryptocurrency in China be of any assistance if all the people there are bombarded with are government sanctioned projects? Would those projects sustain their immutability and neutrality if they were to be used for anti-government purposes for example? Would they remain neutral as bitcoin would, where anyone seeking to control it would have to overcome the strongest computing network of the planet?

Some might say that ANY cryptocurrency project would be good for China, even if its controlled by the government, because it could act as a gatewway to real cryptocurrency. But is that good enough when a government is allowed to control every aspect of life and even seeks to expand in cryptocurrency.

The mere fact that the party seems to promote so called blockchain projects, seems suspicious to me. Why would they promote supposedly immutable and decentralized networks if not for seeking control over them? Maybe it's just an attempt to funnel money to China from the west.

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[Spendulus]

....

The mere fact that the party seems to promote so called blockchain projects, seems suspicious to me. Why would they promote supposedly immutable and decentralized networks if not for seeking control over them? Maybe it's just an attempt to funnel money to China from the west.

Why would you presume that a so called blockchain project was anything remotely similar to what Satoshi  defined as a blockchain?

[Mometaskers]

I might use them begrudgingly. China intends to have its own crypto, that's why it made a 180° on cryptos and allowing these "blockchain" to exist, for now. I'd always look at these projects with suspicion. Remember, every money you give them is a bullet...

[alani123]

I might use them begrudgingly. China intends to have its own crypto, that's why it made a 180° on cryptos and allowing these "blockchain" to exist, for now. I'd always look at these projects with suspicion. Remember, every money you give them is a bullet...

To me, a good question to ask would be to what extent those projects I mention in the OP could be in depended from decisions of the government? This is trully a hard question and I'm sure there'd be quite a few supporters of such projects in the west also that would like to defend them. But I haven't seen this topic of discussion raised often. 

[Mometaskers]

I might use them begrudgingly. China intends to have its own crypto, that's why it made a 180° on cryptos and allowing these "blockchain" to exist, for now. I'd always look at these projects with suspicion. Remember, every money you give them is a bullet...

To me, a good question to ask would be to what extent those projects I mention in the OP could be in depended from decisions of the government? This is trully a hard question and I'm sure there'd be quite a few supporters of such projects in the west also that would like to defend them. But I haven't seen this topic of discussion raised often. 

The thing with Chinese companies is that even if it's funded with minimal government interference, that can come at any time. Soon they could be forcing you to sell of your share in the company or you are falling off a wall in Provence. It's would be hard to determine how involved these projects are with their government and whether they'd even disclose that.

I'm assuming that could also happen to any blockchain that could start there unless it is truly anonymous and the creators manage to completely hide their identities (which would be tough doing in China). And even then, anything that benefits the Chinese economy, benefits the CPC. 

[chaoscoinz]

Be extremely careful supporting projects from any country that is outside of your own. Research your country's laws and practice your Due Diligence. A guy from the U.S just got arrested for teaching citizens of North Korea about different Blockchains and cryptocurrencies.

"The prominent hacker and Ethereum developer Virgil Griffith was arrested by the US government Friday after he spoke at an April conference on blockchain technologies in North Korea. The US government considers his presentation to be a transfer of technology—and therefore a violation of US sanctions."

quote source: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/12/us-ethereum-developer-arrested-for-violating-north-korea-sanctions/

[franky1]

im from britain and white.
(i say that because most racists think i must be one of the opposition if im defending such)

so im not chinese yet even i can see that most of these topics about china seem to sound too much like american writers who have just finished watching fox news and now want to rant some racist idea of why to hate another country they have never visited.

i love how people think that china is a dictatorship. and yet they have elections and even special economic and cultural zones where different rules apply.

i love how people think that china is america's enemy and yet america do alot of trade with them. most things you buy has some linkage to being sourced via china

i love how people think that america is the most popular country, yet it only has 25% of the population china has

i think sometimes people need to actually buy a plane ticket and travel to countries and truly experience them. rather than just believe the fox news hype

[coins4commies]

In America, we live under the biggest cloud of propaganda I have seen anywhere in the world including China. Another one is that people think China is backwards and that people live deprived lives with no freedom to shop or even earn money.

[alani123]

im from britain and white.
(i say that because most racists think i must be one of the opposition if im defending such)

so im not chinese yet even i can see that most of these topics about china seem to sound too much like american writers who have just finished watching fox news and now want to rant some racist idea of why to hate another country they have never visited.

i love how people think that china is a dictatorship. and yet they have elections and even special economic and cultural zones where different rules apply.

i love how people think that china is america's enemy and yet america do alot of trade with them. most things you buy has some linkage to being sourced via china

i love how people think that america is the most popular country, yet it only has 25% of the population china has

i think sometimes people need to actually buy a plane ticket and travel to countries and truly experience them. rather than just believe the fox news hype

I've heard varying opinions on China's political system and I've also had many things told to me by my Chinese friends. Everyday life is not what concerns me in this topic though.

We also know from western businessmen as well as in many cases, local ones, how the CPC oppresses opportunities and how favoritism affects entry to the heavily controlled market. We know for a fact that for any foreign company to open up shop there, they would have to take in government agents to overview their activities. With that level of control, could cryptocurrency projects operating out of China escape the controls? Would those cryptos remain free and untamed, with their network remaining decentralized and immutable if the government suddenly changed its mind on crypto? It's a tough question. But if the answer is that those currencies could be used for anti-government activities at any point and in any way (as BTC could), then I con't see why the communist party would support them

[franky1]

sorry to tell you this but for the last nine years cryptocurrenies have been working in china
sorry to tell you this but for the last nine years cryptocurrenies have been working in china but not actually been "owned by china"
chinese companies and foreign companies have been able to trade and operate freely

take american companies. they find it cheaper and easier to operate in china than to manufacture things in america
take chinese companies. they find it easy and profitable to sell their products to america

the whole 'china owns mining' is just a racial slur. might aswell be saying 'china owns gaming graphics'

the funnier part is most of the mining pools tagged as chinese actually have facilities operating in several countries. but racist people think they are 100% chinese
once you peal away the racial slur and examine the examples of those tagged pools. some are cinese owned but multi-country operated, some are multi-country/company owned and happy syndicate/cooperate together and some are not even chinese at all.

yet if you look at how new york handled the bitlicence you can actually see that america can be more heavy handed then china where stupidly if a company in any other country just serves a NY resident in the form of an exchange. the company needs to ban the customer or buy a bitlicence

more people have used IP bans and proxy services to circumvent american laws, rather than than china

even news about american companies trying to set up mining farms in america getting rejected becomes astonishing but apparent where as setting up a mining farm in china has obviously had successes

there are many things when you look at china on fox news and get told how barbarian they are but yet america are the same.
take american protests i can show you loads of news reports of how lots of americans get arrested due to protesting and how american police can get too heavy haned and people get injured, hurt and even die at the hands of american police.

its funny when you hear news that china uses waterguns and pepper spray and america thinks its barbaric torture and over kill. but if an american cop uses a gun.. well thats just happy america being america

[alani123]

@franky1
Would you trust in the ability of projects whose development team is based in china to make independent decisions?

If we consider tech companies, the Chinese GOVT has been especially pushing for installing government officials directly into them. To my knowledge, this isn't the case to many countries other than China.
We have very clear indications that this is actually happening actually:
https://www.ft.com/content/055a1864-ddd3-11e9-b112-9624ec9edc59
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/23/china-to-place-government-officials-in-100-companies-including-alibaba.html

I'm wondering, if this is happening to some of the strongest private companies operating in china, could cryptocurrency projects keep themselves out of it? I doubt that they could. In my view, any crypto project based in China is in danger to lose its ability to make decisions independently, and being more prone to censorship whether this happens in an obvious or non obvious way.

We've seen huge and successful companies that operate out of China doing this to their user generated content. TikTok is a prime example: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-how-tiktok-censors-videos-that-do-not-please-beijing

[darkangel11]

But if you are so concerned about donating money to China, maybe you should stop living? If you look at your home products at least 50% will be made in China. I have a lot of electronics at home, easily 10k USD worth of stuff made in China. I have a chinese-made smartphone, computer mouse, even clothes made in China. Let me check the keyboard... oh, it's made in Taiwan... wait, that's also China. My iiyama monitor, a japanese brand, of course made in China. I have a some Philips appliances. All have labels "designed in Holland, made in China". If I were to throw out every Chinese-made product in my house I'd probably be left with my Japanese watch, car made in the EU and some things from Korea.

[russel123456]

I think we should not support them. Because I don't trust Chinese people. They are making money illicit way from internet. Basically, in crypto space most of scammers are Chinese people.

[alani123]

But if you are so concerned about donating money to China, maybe you should stop living? If you look at your home products at least 50% will be made in China. I have a lot of electronics at home, easily 10k USD worth of stuff made in China. I have a chinese-made smartphone, computer mouse, even clothes made in China. Let me check the keyboard... oh, it's made in Taiwan... wait, that's also China. My iiyama monitor, a japanese brand, of course made in China. I have a some Philips appliances. All have labels "designed in Holland, made in China". If I were to throw out every Chinese-made product in my house I'd probably be left with my Japanese watch, car made in the EU and some things from Korea.

It's one thing to utilize cheap production for everyday use products via international trade and another to invest in tokens... Guess which one is more tangible.

[franky1]

@franky1
Would you trust in the ability of projects whose development team is based in china to make independent decisions?

If we consider tech companies, the Chinese GOVT has been especially pushing for installing government officials directly into them. To my knowledge, this isn't the case to many countries other than China.
We have very clear indications that this is actually happening actually:
https://www.ft.com/content/055a1864-ddd3-11e9-b112-9624ec9edc59
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/23/china-to-place-government-officials-in-100-companies-including-alibaba.html

I'm wondering, if this is happening to some of the strongest private companies operating in china, could cryptocurrency projects keep themselves out of it? I doubt that they could. In my view, any crypto project based in China is in danger to lose its ability to make decisions independently, and being more prone to censorship whether this happens in an obvious or non obvious way.

in america when setting up an exchange government want there to be an official there. 'compliance officers'
remember al the concerns about amazon alexa spying on peoples conversations and cia wanting apple to put a backdoor into its encrypted phones.
how about gun manufacturers being very buddy buddy bribing government with lobby grants
its funny that in america' its thought... 'its ok america are cute' but other countries are the devil

when you look at what gets manufactured and how america actually gets things made in china because its legally easier and cheaper than doing it in america just shows which country is more open

again in america mining pools have to apply to set up business in the area. many states have a 'not im my back yard' mentality and declined such applications
america have not yet actually approved an ETF
..
oh and this:

We've seen huge and successful companies that operate out of China doing this to their user generated content. TikTok is a prime example: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-how-tiktok-censors-videos-that-do-not-please-beijing

when a company starts it doesnt know whats right or wrong and so becomes exrta cautious to avoid costly legal risks.. then when they expand they realise they can have more freedom as they learn to understand the legal risks.

“In TikTok’s early days we took a blunt approach to minimising conflict on the platform, and our moderation guidelines allowed penalties to be given for things like content that promoted conflict, such as between religious sects or ethnic groups, spanning a number of regions around the world,” the company said. “As TikTok began to take off globally last year, we recognised that this was not the correct approach, and began working to empower local teams that have a nuanced understanding of each market. As we’ve grown we’ve implemented this localised approach across everything from product, to team, to policy development."

“The old guidelines in question are outdated and no longer in use. Today we take localised approaches, including local moderators, local content and moderation policies, local refinement of global policies, and more. We also consult with a number of independent local committees and are working to scale this at a global level, including forming an independent committee of leading industry organisations and experts to continually assess these policies."

so although your guardian link makes presumptions and opinions of doomsday. other sources of information such as tiktok themselves show it was their own initial policy they developed that was too heavy handed. and they realised they need to relax it a little