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Author Topic: Thailand files complaint against Bitcoin Seasteader  (Read 1008 times)
TECSHARE
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April 19, 2019, 11:53:16 AM
Merited by theymos (10), Welsh (4), malevolent (3), vapourminer (1), Gyrsur (1), jojo69 (1), BobLawblaw (1), Phil_S (1), Toxic2040 (1), GrosWesh (1)
 #21

https://i.imgur.com/aQX7O7S.gifv

GREAT NEWS! I got contact from Chad Elwartowski (AKA Elwar) via PM earlier this morning notifying me that he and his girlfriend have been able to escape to nearby Vietnam via boat. They are in good spirits, but still are not out of the woods yet as they still need to leave the region for fear of local intergovernmental relations leading to his potential extradition back to Thailand. As a result for their own safety they will not be posting again until they are home, but he wanted me to thank all of you on his behalf for your kind words and well wishes, and said he hopes to be back on the forum posting soon. He didn't give me much other information for obvious reasons, but at least we know he has made it out of the country, which is very good news. Hopefully we can help bring awareness to this issue so others do not find themselves in a similar situation in the future. Godspeed Elwar.


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April 19, 2019, 04:45:25 PM
 #22

https://i.imgur.com/aQX7O7S.gifv

GREAT NEWS! I got contact from Chad Elwartowski (AKA Elwar) via PM earlier this morning notifying me that he and his girlfriend have been able to escape to nearby Vietnam via boat.

Thank goodness the Thai authorities didn't managed to catch up with them. Hoping they to get out of Vietnam soon.


A yacht - or a cruise ship. I remember watching a documentary about a family living in a yacht, a couple and a son and daughter. I think that setup is much easier to move around.

Maybe Elwar and his people lived on boats for a while. I think he wants to make something more permanent.


Perhaps. That gulf does seem to be the best place to start constructing in that area.

 
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April 22, 2019, 02:01:35 PM
 #23

Might may not make right, but it seems to make what exists.

Too bad Elwar didn't do his thing further out to sea. As it is, many countries claim 200 miles out, even though they formally state only 12 miles.

This shows that no matter how peaceful or "tiny" you are, "they" always want control.

Elwar and others need to find some place that is far enough away from all lands that nobody will even notice them.

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April 22, 2019, 11:24:06 PM
 #24

The below is from an email I received from The Seasteading Institute. The link address, below, doesn't have anything about the Thai problem (that I can see). Rather, it goes to a page that advertises Seasteading.


Floating Islands Leader Urges Leniency for Offshore Couple



Seasteaders Offer to Help Thailand With Rising Sea Levels

San Francisco, April 22, 2019 -- The chairman of the Seasteading Institute (https://www.seasteading.org/) Patri Friedman, urged compassion for a couple whose floating home was seized last week by the Thailand government, declaring that “their actions were no threat to Thai sovereignty” and “our organization works with governments and not against them”.

American Chad Elwartowski and his Thai partner Nadia Supranee Thepdet were not aboard when the Thai navy boarded the platform they had called home for several months. Thai authorities revoked the visa of Chad, an early bitcoin investor, and charged him and his partner with violating Thai sovereignty by floating the cabin 14 nautical miles off the west coast of the Thai island of Phuket.

Friedman said he “was shocked and saddened last week by media reports that this couple was charged with treason – punishable in Thailand by death or life imprisonment – simply because no one had filed paperwork for the floating home. This is like charging someone with a capital crime for not registering their car.”

He added “For Chad and Nadia, it was the realization of a romantic dream to live openly and peacefully on the ocean...I am deeply relieved to see that officials are considering dropping the death penalty.”

Friedman, grandson of Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman, suggested instead that “Thai authorities should follow the lead of the United Nations, who recommend floating cities be part of the global community's new arsenal of tools in the fight against climate change.”

Using statistics from a recent United Nations High-Level conference on Sustainable Floating Cities in New York in early April, Friedman pointed to the Thai capital: “Seasteading concepts can help cities like Bangkok which are increasingly at risk of flooding. Some parts of the city are sinking by around two centimetres a year, while sea levels in the Gulf of Thailand are rising.”

He concluded that “we look forward to future partnerships with states, NGOs, and communities to test new ideas and solutions for all. We would be honored and delighted to share our research with the Thai government, as sustainable floating cities are a key tool to address climate change and other 21st century challenges.”

About The Seasteading Institute

The Seasteading Institute (TSI) is a United States 501(c)(3) non-profit. Our mission is to enable seasteading communities – floating cities – where pioneers can peacefully test new laws and political systems and inspire change in governments around the world.  We work on this mission through research and education with individuals, organizations, and governments. Our current main initiative is sustainable seasteading through facilitating the creation of the first floating city.

As a non-profit organization dedicated to the entire seasteading movement, our role is not to build seasteads, but to empower others to do so. Our Floating City Project envisions a model wherein a nation and a company will establish a public-private partnership to construct and operate a floating city with significant legal autonomy that functions as an integrated and efficient product to meet the needs of citizens. This project builds on over a decade of engineering and legal research, political and maritime industry diplomacy, and building a community of aspiring seasteaders.
For press inquiries contact press@seasteading.org.
 
Seasteading Institute Founder’s Full Statement On Peaceful Platform Near Thailand

I founded The Seasteading Institute in 2008 to enable seasteading communities – floating cities – where pioneers can peacefully test new laws and political systems and inspire change in governments around the world. Our decade of legal research advocates for a variety of strategies within current international law, such as flagged vessels, and partnering with innovative and progressive governments.

A few months ago, a diverse group of activists, engineers, and writers, aided by Thai shipyards, built and launched a platform from Thailand. It was anchored outside territorial waters, as verified by GPS records. This remarkable achievement in affordable ocean technology was done in partnership with Thai shipyards and could help humanity adapt to rising sea levels.

The platform’s first two occupants were a cosmopolitan couple, Chad Elwartowski of America and Nadia Supranee Thepdet of Thailand. For Chad and Nadia, it was the realization of a romantic dream to live openly and peacefully on the ocean, where they released videos of their adventure.

I was shocked and saddened last week by media reports that this couple was charged with treason – punishable in Thailand by death or life imprisonment – simply because no one had filed paperwork for the floating home. This is like charging someone with a capital crime for not registering their car.

I urge compassion for these two brave seasteaders, as their actions were no threat to Thai sovereignty. I am deeply relieved to see that officials are considering dropping the death penalty. This is in Thailand’s best interests, as by threatening a harmless couple with death for a minor infraction, Thailand would only be threatening their own tourism industry.

Instead, Thai authorities should follow the lead of the United Nations, who recommend floating cities be part of the global community's new arsenal of tools in the fight against climate change. Seasteading concepts can help cities like Bangkok which are increasingly at risk of flooding. Some parts of the city are sinking by around two centimetres a year, while sea levels in the Gulf of Thailand are rising.

Our mission is to help humanity by settling the blue frontier, and so our organization works with governments, not against them. We support following international and local laws and look forward to future partnerships with states, NGOs, and communities to test new ideas and solutions for all. We would be honored and delighted to share our research with the Thai government.

While we don’t have enough specifics on this incident to comment on the various legal claims, we do know the United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea. Beyond territorial waters, the world’s oceans are the “common heritage of humanity”, not some unclaimed free-for-all. But neither should they be a death sentence.

Rather, sustainable floating cities are a key tool to address climate change and other 21st century challenges. Please join me in spreading the message that humanity needs its seasteaders in action – not in jail, in hiding, or in the grave.

Patri Friedman,
Founder and Chairman of the Board,
The Seasteading Institute
San Francisco, California, April 22, 2019.

P.s. Some news reports have erroneously stated that our organization directly represents those involved. We wish to clarify that, to best support seasteading in general, we don’t represent or speak on behalf of any particular individual.

Additionally, while we publish general research on international law for educational purposes, local regulations, precedents, and interpretations vary around the world. We do not, and cannot, provide legal advice or representation, and recommend with the utmost vigor that anyone attempting anything like seasteading obtain independent legal counsel.


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April 23, 2019, 05:43:33 AM
Last edit: April 27, 2019, 01:44:11 PM by ðºÞæ
 #25

Might may not make right, but it seems to make what exists.

Too bad Elwar didn't do his thing further out to sea. As it is, many countries claim 200 miles out, even though they formally state only 12 miles.

This shows that no matter how peaceful or "tiny" you are, "they" always want control.

Elwar and others need to find some place that is far enough away from all lands that nobody will even notice them.

Cool
200 Nautical miles is the Exclusive economic zone (fishing rights, oil drilling....., no one else is allowed to commercially operate within)
12 Nautical miles is for most countries the Territorial sea extention, some still have the old 3 Miles or something else.
Crossing that line you are "in the country".

The US does have a 24 mile Contiguous zone. Internal waters, (lakes and rives) a country has total sovereignty.



What the Thai Navy did is a act of Piracy.

Quote
From the eighteenth century until the mid twentieth century, the territorial waters of the British Empire, the United States, France and many other nations were three nautical miles (5.6 km) wide.
Originally, this was the length of a cannon shot, hence the portion of an ocean that a sovereign state could defend from shore.



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April 27, 2019, 01:09:59 PM
 #26

Any news updates on this?
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April 27, 2019, 04:07:34 PM
 #27

Might may not make right, but it seems to make what exists.

Too bad Elwar didn't do his thing further out to sea. As it is, many countries claim 200 miles out, even though they formally state only 12 miles.

This shows that no matter how peaceful or "tiny" you are, "they" always want control.

Elwar and others need to find some place that is far enough away from all lands that nobody will even notice them.

Cool
200 Nautical miles is the Exclusive economic zone (fishing rights, oil drilling....., no one else is allowed to commercially operate within)
12 Nautical miles is for most countries the Territorial sea extention, some still have the old 3 Miles or something else.
Crossing that line you are "in the country".

The US does have a 24 mile Contiguous zone. Internal waters, (lakes and rives) a country has total sovereignty.



What the Thai Navy did is a act of Piracy.

Quote
From the eighteenth century until the mid twentieth century, the territorial waters of the British Empire, the United States, France and many other nations were three nautical miles (5.6 km) wide.
Originally, this was the length of a cannon shot, hence the portion of an ocean that a sovereign state could defend from shore.


However, the reasons they say they did it might not be the official reasons. The official reasons just might have to do with interactions between Thailand and Elwar or Nadia that made them legally liable for other things. Wasn't the company that made the spar in Thailand? Isn't Nadia a Thai citizen? What else might there be?

Remember, Elwar's visa was revoked. The real reason might be something else entirely.

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April 27, 2019, 06:42:04 PM
 #28




I just hope this is not the same Elwar...

https://www.reddit.com/r/TREZOR/comments/begdhm/my_trezor_is_not_recognized_by_any_computer/


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April 27, 2019, 06:59:44 PM
 #29

If you look at that guys post history, I would say it probably is.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/bagpv2/this_is_fine/ekdhf0k/

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April 27, 2019, 07:34:38 PM
 #30

Well it looks like that was posted before he talked to Tecshare so hopefully he got it figured out..
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April 28, 2019, 11:56:08 AM
 #31

Unfortunately, this was expected. There were just too close to the coast. Seasteading can only be considered safe if you're more than 200 miles from any country. I guess Elwar must relocate to the middle of the Pacific...

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April 28, 2019, 12:45:52 PM
 #32

However, there are many near-surface, ocean plateaus where nobody would care. Some of them are within the 200 miles. Yet, nobody would care.

The Caribbean to the edge of the Atlantic is full of such places. Elwar would have to start over, and rebuild his seastead. And he would have to haul it by boat, or at least install a motor on it. If he gets safely away from Thai authorities 100%, he can start over.

Personally, I would like to see him succeed. I think that he isn't doing anyone wrong, or harm, or damage, in any way. Let him get advice on this, and start over. After all, the first settlers in the Americas had their share of trouble. We have many more options than they did.

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April 28, 2019, 01:33:36 PM
 #33

Do you think this - https://www.trackcoinmarket.com/en/crypto-news/33524/prime-suspect-bitcoin-scam-arrested-thailand - has anything to do with Elwar?

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April 28, 2019, 02:28:47 PM
 #34


Hmmm... Do you think the Thai authorities simply wanted to steal his bitcoins? If they managed to arrest him do you think they would have been able to take it? Like, maybe they'd force him to give it up in exchange for retracting charges? I mean, the crime they accuse him of is punishable by death.
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April 28, 2019, 02:35:46 PM
Last edit: April 28, 2019, 04:05:16 PM by ðºÞæ
 #35

No, story is form last year.


Unfortunately, this was expected. There were just too close to the coast. Seasteading can only be considered safe if you're more than 200 miles from any country. I guess Elwar must relocate to the middle of the Pacific...
No, they where in international waters. 200 miles it total garbage. Three quarters of countries with a coastline claim 12 Nautical Miles as Territorial sea, including Thailand. The further out the higher the cost and difficult to patrol/enforce/defend. A small wooden boat with limited power can not establish communication to shore if to far out to sea. Without communication Thai or other coast guard wont know what a vessel intentions are, chasing ever single one of them 24/7 hundreds of miles offshore is crazy expensive.

Elwars and his girlfriend issue at hand is that going to and from the seastead would require getting in contact with immigration.
Going to the seastead leaving Thailand must get visa stamp. Going from the seastead to Thailand, informing the Thai authorities that you indent to enter the county. Failing to do so is illegal country enter/exiting.
Thai Navy has no right to enter the seastead is it is outside there jurisdiction. Taking it over is a "invasion" of the micro-nation or piracy.

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April 28, 2019, 05:27:28 PM
Last edit: April 28, 2019, 06:11:45 PM by ðºÞæ
 #36

However, there are many near-surface, ocean plateaus where nobody would care. Some of them are within the 200 miles. Yet, nobody would care.

The Caribbean to the edge of the Atlantic is full of such places. Elwar would have to start over, and rebuild his seastead. And he would have to haul it by boat, or at least install a motor on it. If he gets safely away from Thai authorities 100%, he can start over.

Personally, I would like to see him succeed. I think that he isn't doing anyone wrong, or harm, or damage, in any way. Let him get advice on this, and start over. After all, the first settlers in the Americas had their share of trouble. We have many more options than they did.

Cool

Thats one failed such place https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/republic-of-minerva
also
http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/Republic_of_Rose_Island
how is this
http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/Principality_of_Sealand






Seasteading or Liberland are not the only pushes for freedom.
The words situation now is similar to 1989 USSR to many pushing for freedom at to many places, only a matter of time before the first really succeed for the long term.

To my knowledge they attempt to buy Gibraltar.
https://www.freesociety.com/

There are lots of places which could be bought cheaply, but most are to far away. For years UK has been looking for people moving to Pitcairn Islands, no-one is interested to move there.

The way forward, A society based on voluntary interactions instead of government force.

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April 28, 2019, 06:54:06 PM
 #37

The WSJ published an article today online.

According to the article, Elwar was *only* living in the seastead, did not own it, nor choose the location. He apparently was planning on investing in the company that sells them, but that never materialized. The Thai government also towed the seastead back to land early last week.

I searched for his facebook, and Elwar posted that he and his wife are safe, and is avoiding social media to avoid making a mistake that will reveal his location.

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April 28, 2019, 08:54:04 PM
 #38

However, there are many near-surface, ocean plateaus where nobody would care. Some of them are within the 200 miles. Yet, nobody would care.

The Caribbean to the edge of the Atlantic is full of such places. Elwar would have to start over, and rebuild his seastead. And he would have to haul it by boat, or at least install a motor on it. If he gets safely away from Thai authorities 100%, he can start over.

Personally, I would like to see him succeed. I think that he isn't doing anyone wrong, or harm, or damage, in any way. Let him get advice on this, and start over. After all, the first settlers in the Americas had their share of trouble. We have many more options than they did.

Cool

Thats one failed such place https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/republic-of-minerva
also
http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/Republic_of_Rose_Island
how is this
http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/Principality_of_Sealand






Seasteading or Liberland are not the only pushes for freedom.
The words situation now is similar to 1989 USSR to many pushing for freedom at to many places, only a matter of time before the first really succeed for the long term.

To my knowledge they attempt to buy Gibraltar.
https://www.freesociety.com/

There are lots of places which could be bought cheaply, but most are to far away. For years UK has been looking for people moving to Pitcairn Islands, no-one is interested to move there.

The way forward, A society based on voluntary interactions instead of government force.

Elwar isn't attempting to form any nation. He's just trying to live. Just as there are pirates in every form, pirate nations exist, as well. There are boat groups all over the world. Few are trying to start a nation. They are all just living.

Cool

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April 28, 2019, 11:47:39 PM
 #39

The WSJ published an article today online.

According to the article, Elwar was *only* living in the seastead, did not own it, nor choose the location. He apparently was planning on investing in the company that sells them, but that never materialized. The Thai government also towed the seastead back to land early last week.

I searched for his facebook, and Elwar posted that he and his wife are safe, and is avoiding social media to avoid making a mistake that will reveal his location.

Well, Elwar's getting famous, the WSJ is writing about him! He can be proud of that. Actually, I believe he was lucky, and that Thailand has been nice. It would have been much worse if he had chosen to seastead near the US, Russia or China.

I wonder if Thailand has issued a search warrant against him (a local lawyer could check that). Then, he would be in real trouble.

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April 28, 2019, 11:55:00 PM
 #40

The WSJ published an article today online.

According to the article, Elwar was *only* living in the seastead, did not own it, nor choose the location. He apparently was planning on investing in the company that sells them, but that never materialized. The Thai government also towed the seastead back to land early last week.

I searched for his facebook, and Elwar posted that he and his wife are safe, and is avoiding social media to avoid making a mistake that will reveal his location.

Well, Elwar's getting famous, the WSJ is writing about him! He can be proud of that. Actually, I believe he was lucky, and that Thailand has been nice. It would have been much worse if he had chosen to seastead near the US, Russia or China.
All the major news outlets have written about him. An American (potentially) facing the death penalty overseas is usually big news.

I wonder if Thailand has issued a search warrant against him (a local lawyer could check that). Then, he would be in real trouble.
According to the article, no warrant has been issued yet:
Quote from: wsj
Police say they are figuring out whether to request an arrest warrant for endangering Thai sovereignty
He is still in hiding, I have no clue where, hopefully on his way out of Thailand, and surrounding countries if he isn't already out.

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