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Author Topic: NK fires short range missile // escalating NK - US tensions  (Read 248 times)
Quickseller
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April 17, 2019, 11:54:51 PM
Last edit: May 04, 2019, 01:43:23 AM by Quickseller
 #1

There is a report that North Korea recently filed a "new tactical guided weapons firing test" today. This is according to North Korea's state run media.

North Korea has previously not conducted any ballistic weapons tests since late 2017, as Trump had successfully deescalated US-NK relations that appeared to be heading to war.

Talks to fully denuclearize North Korea broke down during the last summit between North Korea and US President Trump, when NK wanted sanctions removed in exchange for something less than a full, verifiable denuclearization.

The US military had not detected any kind of missile launch recently, however this alleged test is likely meant to send a message to the US of NK's capabilities.

What will this lead to? Will the US ease on economic sanctions, while getting less than a full denuclearization? Or will the US pursue a regime change, covert or otherwise?

There has not been a war between two counties that both have nuclear weapons, and if NK is able to develop a working missile that a nuclear bomb can be attached to, going to war with NK will become very complicated.

Paywall: https://www.wsj.com/articles/kim-jong-un-sends-message-to-trump-with-military-visit-11555497814?mod=hp_lead_pos4

Update:
May 3, 2019
North Korea just fired a short range missile according to the South Korea defense ministry

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April 18, 2019, 12:08:07 AM
 #2

Good.  This should help them defend their country from imperial invasion. Sanctions are America's way of taking their frustrations out on helpless poor people when they can't get other wealthy overlords to cave to demands and its really disgusting. 

The US had no intention to denuclearize the peninsula and only wanted NK to get rid of their weapons while keeping ours.  I think Trump got confused about what denuclearization of the peninsula meant and it took him months to figure it out. 
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April 18, 2019, 12:10:55 AM
 #3

Good.  This should help them defend their country from imperial invasion. Sanctions are America's way of taking their frustrations out on helpless poor people when they can't get other wealthy overlords to cave to demands and its really disgusting. 

The US had no intention to denuclearize the peninsula and only wanted NK to get rid of their weapons while keeping ours.  I think Trump got confused about what denuclearization of the peninsula meant and it took him months to figure it out. 
You are crazy.

I don't think anyone was ever claiming the US was going to denuclearize, and I am not aware of any compelling reason why we should.

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April 18, 2019, 12:36:23 AM
 #4

North Korea is a tool of China, that taken in context the actions of North Korea become more transparent.

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April 18, 2019, 02:27:27 AM
 #5

Good.  This should help them defend their country from imperial invasion. Sanctions are America's way of taking their frustrations out on helpless poor people when they can't get other wealthy overlords to cave to demands and its really disgusting.  

The US had no intention to denuclearize the peninsula and only wanted NK to get rid of their weapons while keeping ours.  I think Trump got confused about what denuclearization of the peninsula meant and it took him months to figure it out.  
You are crazy.

I don't think anyone was ever claiming the US was going to denuclearize, and I am not aware of any compelling reason why we should.
The same reason anyone should?  FWIW, I don't think anyone should denuclearize but people are always pushing for it.  

-The goal of the summits was "complete and irreversible denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula"
-South Korea is part of the Korean peninsula
-The US is obligated to protect South Korea and Japan under its nuclear umbrella treaty
-The US has military presence in South Korea

Based on all of those things, moving towards the "complete and irreversible denuclearization of the Korean peninsula" would require a combination of removing US presence, removing US nuclear capabilities, ending the nuclear umbrella protections, or getting rid of our offensive nuclear arsenal.  

That is the way it has always been communicated and the way North Korea always seen it but of course Washington said those words and meant "just north korea".  They had to say "korean peninsula" to avoid sounding so flagrantly one-sided and hypocritical from the start.  
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April 18, 2019, 06:50:09 AM
 #6

North Korea is a tool of China, that taken in context the actions of North Korea become more transparent.
Yes, China is a close ally of North Korea, and is probably the only reason they have been able to survive as long as they have. NK is a proxy of China whose goal is to prevent the US from exerting too much influence into the East.

I don't think NK is a sock puppet, or directly controlled by China, but is rather currently heavily influenced by China. This relationship could backfire if another country forms an alliance with NK that outweighs the Chinese-NK relationship, and NK is able to attach a Nuke to a long range short range missile, because the Chinese may find themselves right next to a unstable country that is no longer friendly with Nuclear weapons, and it would be dangerous to try to go to war with them.


Good.  This should help them defend their country from imperial invasion. Sanctions are America's way of taking their frustrations out on helpless poor people when they can't get other wealthy overlords to cave to demands and its really disgusting. 

The US had no intention to denuclearize the peninsula and only wanted NK to get rid of their weapons while keeping ours.  I think Trump got confused about what denuclearization of the peninsula meant and it took him months to figure it out. 
You are crazy.

I don't think anyone was ever claiming the US was going to denuclearize, and I am not aware of any compelling reason why we should.
The same reason anyone should?  FWIW, I don't think anyone should denuclearize but people are always pushing for it. 

-The goal of the summits was "complete and irreversible denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula"
-South Korea is part of the Korean peninsula
-The US is obligated to protect South Korea and Japan under its nuclear umbrella treaty
-The US has military presence in South Korea

Based on all of those things, moving towards the "complete and irreversible denuclearization of the Korean peninsula" would require a combination of removing US presence, removing US nuclear capabilities, ending the nuclear umbrella protections, or getting rid of our offensive nuclear arsenal. 

That is the way it has always been communicated and the way North Korea always seen it but of course Washington said those words and meant "just north korea".  They had to say "korean peninsula" to avoid sounding so flagrantly one-sided and hypocritical from the start. 
The ultimate goal is to put an end to the risk of War/armed conflict on the Korean Peninsula.

The North Korean government is also not very nice, and has a long history of human rights violations, and heavy handed tactics to stop dissent within the country. It is also, along with Iran, a state sponsor of Terrorism. The NK government may not act rationally in trying to defend itself. The NK government has previously threatened to launch Nuclear Missiles to US cities.

Simply put, it is unacceptable for the NK government to have nuclear weapons capable of hitting targets allied with the United States. It appears to be the goal of the NK government to develop technology capable of hitting targets located in the US mainland.

The United States government does not act the same way the NK government acts, not by a large margin. When the US goes to war, it goes to great lengths to prevent civilian casualties. Wars, and military conflicts the US has been involved in over the past century have had the goal of solving other peoples problems, such as overthrowing tyrants, and dictators, and to stop the spread of communism/socialism, that has killed hundreds of millions of people over the past century.     

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April 18, 2019, 10:22:54 AM
 #7

The United States government does not act the same way the NK government acts, not by a large margin. When the US goes to war, it goes to great lengths to prevent civilian casualties. Wars, and military conflicts the US has been involved in over the past century have had the goal of solving other peoples problems, such as overthrowing tyrants, and dictators, and to stop the spread of communism/socialism, that has killed hundreds of millions of people over the past century.     

I dont think most people will agree to that:



I think this is what people call american exceptionalism. Smiley
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April 18, 2019, 12:32:07 PM
 #8

It is important to understand that NK already gave such denuclearization promises multiple times and every time they failed their promises as soon as they got some benefit.
This time looks exactly the same: Trump tried to force China not to export any oil to NK and this time China was ready to do it. As we know the economy of any country is not working without oil and NK is not an exception so Kim decided to start a conversation... Again...
Well, as we see not their dialogue failed and everything goes the same way as it was before.
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April 18, 2019, 01:26:07 PM
 #9

Its probably just more internal rhetoric as usual, possibly staged for the "masses" to be kept in check. This is a government whose primary principle is: military power first, and it also happens to be hereditary, not unlike the monarchies of the past.

"NK State media" is redundant. EVERYTHING in NK is State owned. Its a socialist state inspired by Stalin, of which Kim Il Sung (NK's founder) was a big admirer. things went bad when he died, with both China and Russia which were both pissed back then by the Stalinism of Kim.

So they poured everything into the military and had great famines socialism always produces (just like Mao). At the same time building things nobody wanted (such as that spaceship shaped hotel in Pyongyang) while the people remain in eternal poverty and suffering.


But oh, Imperialism™ bad, "communism" good, uh huh... See how well it worked in history: Socialism always does the same, coercion by the state. NK is a perfect example. The people there can only hope for a German style reunification, where the wealth of the south will revitalize the neglected and exploited north. But this can be traumatic at best. Decades of a socialism system does weird things to humans, not unlike what happened to the Soviet Union when it disbanded.

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April 18, 2019, 03:00:48 PM
 #10

It is important to understand that NK already gave such denuclearization promises multiple times and every time they failed their promises as soon as they got some benefit.

In the past, the US had lifted some sanctions and provided some aid to NK in exchange for this, however the US didn’t fall for this ploy this time around.

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April 19, 2019, 01:32:24 AM
 #11

Good.  This should help them defend their country from imperial invasion. Sanctions are America's way of taking their frustrations out on helpless poor people when they can't get other wealthy overlords to cave to demands and its really disgusting. 

The US had no intention to denuclearize the peninsula and only wanted NK to get rid of their weapons while keeping ours.  I think Trump got confused about what denuclearization of the peninsula meant and it took him months to figure it out. 
You are crazy.

I don't think anyone was ever claiming the US was going to denuclearize, and I am not aware of any compelling reason why we should.

As I recall the matter, Trump promised Rocket Boy that the US would protect NK if they were invaded. That's what reversed the tables, and what negated the merit of being a nuclear power. I don't see a promise to denuclearize the peninsula as any kind of a statement about what and where the US might keep its nukes. These days they can be fired from ships, submarines, aircraft and then the cruise missiles have a range of 600-1000 miles.

I am sure many people do not know about the gradual process by which the Cold War was ended. We are clearly on that road with NK. The strip of land between N and SK, many, many land mine fields have been cleared. There are many signals as to this process occurring.

As for the tactical missile. If I had to bet, I would wager NK has a customer or two who expressed an interest in intermediate range missiles.....
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April 19, 2019, 09:29:25 AM
 #12

North Korea is a tool of China, that taken in context the actions of North Korea become more transparent.

The status quo is beneficial to China. Not only do it maintain a buffer state between it and US ally SoKor, it also gets to exploit NoKor's natural resources for cheap. It really is the only reason NoKor haven't collapsed yet.

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April 19, 2019, 08:38:09 PM
 #13

It is impossible to take anything that North Korea takes seriously, it is in their best interests to act like they have an effective military and all the latest weapons. While I have no doubt they could do some serious damage to surrounding countries, that is more due to the sheer amount of manpower and less to do with technology.

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April 20, 2019, 02:13:08 PM
 #14

The ultimate goal is to put an end to the risk of War/armed conflict on the Korean Peninsula.

The North Korean government is also not very nice, and has a long history of human rights violations, and heavy handed tactics to stop dissent within the country. It is also, along with Iran, a state sponsor of Terrorism. The NK government may not act rationally in trying to defend itself. The NK government has previously threatened to launch Nuclear Missiles to US cities.

Simply put, it is unacceptable for the NK government to have nuclear weapons capable of hitting targets allied with the United States. It appears to be the goal of the NK government to develop technology capable of hitting targets located in the US mainland.

The United States government does not act the same way the NK government acts, not by a large margin. When the US goes to war, it goes to great lengths to prevent civilian casualties. Wars, and military conflicts the US has been involved in over the past century have had the goal of solving other peoples problems, such as overthrowing tyrants, and dictators, and to stop the spread of communism/socialism, that has killed hundreds of millions of people over the past century.     
The ultimate goal is to put an end to the risk of War/armed conflict on the Korean Peninsula.

The American government is also not very nice, and has a long history of human rights violations, and heavy handed tactics to stop dissent around the world. It is also, along with Saudi Arabia, a state sponsor of Terrorism. The US government may not act rationally in trying to defend itself. The US government has previously used Nuclear weapons and invaded countries without provocation.

Simply put, it is unacceptable for the US government to have nuclear weapons. It appears to be the goal of the US government to deploy technology capable of hitting targets located in DPRK

The DPRK government does not act the same way the US government acts, not by a large margin. NK doesn't go to war, so it doesn't have to pretend it goes to great lengths to prevent civilian casualties. Wars, and military conflicts the DPRK has been involved in over the past century have had the goal of defending itself from American invasion and occupation

It is important to understand that NK already gave such denuclearization promises multiple times and every time they failed their promises as soon as they got some benefit.
This time looks exactly the same: Trump tried to force China not to export any oil to NK and this time China was ready to do it. As we know the economy of any country is not working without oil and NK is not an exception so Kim decided to start a conversation... Again...
Well, as we see not their dialogue failed and everything goes the same way as it was before.


"Stop defending yourself and we will let your people eat" is not diplomacy, its more like extortion
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April 21, 2019, 05:22:25 PM
 #15

....
The DPRK government does not act the same way the US government acts, not by a large margin. NK doesn't go to war, so it doesn't have to pretend it goes to great lengths to prevent civilian casualties. Wars, and military conflicts the DPRK has been involved in over the past century have had the goal of defending itself from American invasion and occupation...

It's well understood that the unprovoked war by NK on SK in 1950 had as its goal unifying Korea as one communist nation.

Since 1950 the difference in economic growth of the two Koreas is breathtaking.

South Korea's economy has surpassed that of its neighbor to the north many times over. North Korea's GDP was estimated to be $40 billion in 2015, while that of South Korea was $1.92 trillion for the same period. South Korea's GDP per capita in 2015 was estimated to be $37,600, while North Korea's was $1,700. South Korea’s trade volume was a gigantic $1.07 trillion in 2013. By comparison, North Korea reported a relatively minuscule $7.3 billion.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/040515/north-korean-vs-south-korean-economies.asp
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April 21, 2019, 06:46:21 PM
Last edit: April 21, 2019, 06:56:51 PM by coins4commies
 #16

....
The DPRK government does not act the same way the US government acts, not by a large margin. NK doesn't go to war, so it doesn't have to pretend it goes to great lengths to prevent civilian casualties. Wars, and military conflicts the DPRK has been involved in over the past century have had the goal of defending itself from American invasion and occupation...

It's well understood that the unprovoked war by NK on SK in 1950 had as its goal unifying Korea as one communist nation.

You are talking about a conflict that should have only been a civil conflict within Korea and not a world war where the US tries to dictate what happens on the other side of the world.  To state "unprovoked" so matter of factly makes me believe you have no bothered to look into the details.  I invite you to take a deeper, more precise look into the history for historical context.  I know most people won't care to learn about the detailed history of the situation (or they would have already?) but I will put it out here for you anyway.  


First, you need to learn about the People's republic of Korea, the first post-war government, established according to the will of the Korean people at the end of Japanese rule, and rejected by the US who wanted to control the fate of Korea themselves.  They placed South Korea under the authoritarian rule of an American general and suppressed the people's repubic.  
Quote
Appointed as military governor, Hodge directly controlled South Korea as head of the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 1945–48).[75] He attempted to establish control by restoring Japanese colonial administrators to power, but in the face of Korean protests quickly reversed this decision.[76] The USAMGIK refused to recognize the provisional government of the short-lived People's Republic of Korea (PRK) due to its suspected Communist sympathies.
In the South,  localized governing committees were outlawed and PRK political leaders were imprisoned, murdered or suppressed in some way.
Quote
The idea was not popular among Koreans and riots broke out.[62] To contain them, the USAMGIK banned strikes on 8 December 1945 and outlawed the PRK Revolutionary Government and the PRK People's Committees on 12 December 1945.[79] Following further large-scale civilian unrest,[80] the USAMGIK declared martial law.
more
Quote
The military governor Lieutenant-General John R. Hodge refused to recognize the PRK and its People's Committees, and outlawed it on 12 December.[4]:p.57 He later stated, "one of our missions was to break down this Communist government".[6]:p.202 On July 19, 1947, Lyuh Woon-hyung was assassinated by a right-wing Korean.[4]:p.65
The US mission was to assert its will in Korea and its right there in that quote.  The people did not want this.  You can't just skip over all of this and talk about the puppet regime.  


Meanwhile in the North...

Quote
When Soviet troops entered Pyongyang on August 24, 1945, they found a local People's Committee established there, led by veteran Christian nationalist Cho Man-sik.[4]:p.54–57 Unlike their American counterparts, the Soviet authorities recognized and worked with the People's Committees[5]:pp.105–107[6]:p.227–228 By some accounts, Cho Man-sik was the Soviet government's first choice to lead North Korea.

Up until 1950, there were still Koreans fighting for their country in the South, and the North knew this and wanted to liberate the South to unite the country.  Keep in mind, it was one Korea before the US divided it.   Kim Il Sung tried to peacefully unite the country through elections but puppet Rhee was not having it
Quote
On 7 June 1950, Kim Il-sung called for a Korea-wide election on 5–8 August 1950 and a consultative conference in Haeju on 15–17 June 1950. On 11 June, the North sent three diplomats to the South as a peace overture that Rhee rejected outright.[

Before calling the preemptive strike "unprovoked,  have to consider who Rhee was, how he came to power, and what is intentions were.
Quote
President Harry Truman installed Syngman Rhee as dictator. South Korea’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission recently estimated that Rhee killed from 100,000 to 200,000 political prisoners.

Rhee bragged about invading the North. “South Korea’s neurotic right-wing government leaders clamor stridently for United States help to ‘unify’ Korea — that is, for the South to conquer the North,” wrote Andrew Roth in the Nation magazine (Aug. 23, 1949).

Truman emissary John Foster Dulles went to South Korea five days before the war erupted. Dulles had been managing partner of Sullivan & Cromwell, the Rockefellers’ law firm and would become President Dwight Eisenhower’s secretary of state.

Dulles egged on Rhee, who had constantly launched attacks on the North. A half-billion dollars had been lavished on the South Korean puppet army and it was expected to roll over the North.
The US had no business intervening but the truth is that American capitalists were so butthurt about the "loss of china"  (as if china belonged to them in the first place) that they had to make an example of the next country that tried to control its own destiny.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_of_China
It sounds so absurd that if I didn't know any better, I'd think the notion was made up by anti-americans, but it really is an accurate portrayal of how US policy felt about a certain side winning a civil war on the other side of the planet.  

Quote

Since 1950 the difference in economic growth of the two Koreas is breathtaking.


You mean since 1976?  Another key detail you either didn't know or choose to omit in order to sound more convincing.  North Korea was more economically advanced than South Korea for 25 years and didn't stagnate until the 80s.  So many people form such strong opinions with so little information and without even bothering to look into context.
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April 21, 2019, 06:58:24 PM
 #17

Nearly every military conflict during the Cold War was effectively a proxy war between the West and the Communist countries. The Communists were doing the same thing the US was doing (intervening) via the North.

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April 21, 2019, 07:19:37 PM
 #18

....
The DPRK government does not act the same way the US government acts, not by a large margin. NK doesn't go to war, so it doesn't have to pretend it goes to great lengths to prevent civilian casualties. Wars, and military conflicts the DPRK has been involved in over the past century have had the goal of defending itself from American invasion and occupation...

It's well understood that the unprovoked war by NK on SK in 1950 had as its goal unifying Korea as one communist nation.

You are talking about a conflict that should have only been a civil conflict within Korea and not a world war where the US tries to dictate what happens on the other side of the world.  To state "unprovoked" so matter of factly makes me believe you have no bothered to look into the details.  I invite you to take a deeper, more precise look into the history for historical context.  I know most people won't care to learn about the detailed history of the situation (or they would have already?) but I will put it out here for you anyway.  


First, you need to learn about the People's republic of Korea, the first post-war government, established according to the will of the Korean people at the end of Japanese rule, and rejected by the US who wanted to control the fate of Korea themselves.  They placed South Korea under the authoritarian rule of an American general and suppressed the people's repubic.  
Quote
Appointed as military governor, Hodge directly controlled South Korea as head of the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 1945–48).[75] He attempted to establish control by restoring Japanese colonial administrators to power, but in the face of Korean protests quickly reversed this decision.[76] The USAMGIK refused to recognize the provisional government of the short-lived People's Republic of Korea (PRK) due to its suspected Communist sympathies.
In the South,  localized governing committees were outlawed and PRK political leaders were imprisoned, murdered or suppressed in some way.
Quote
The idea was not popular among Koreans and riots broke out.[62] To contain them, the USAMGIK banned strikes on 8 December 1945 and outlawed the PRK Revolutionary Government and the PRK People's Committees on 12 December 1945.[79] Following further large-scale civilian unrest,[80] the USAMGIK declared martial law.
more
Quote
The military governor Lieutenant-General John R. Hodge refused to recognize the PRK and its People's Committees, and outlawed it on 12 December.[4]:p.57 He later stated, "one of our missions was to break down this Communist government".[6]:p.202 On July 19, 1947, Lyuh Woon-hyung was assassinated by a right-wing Korean.[4]:p.65
The US mission was to assert its will in Korea and its right there in that quote.  The people did not want this.  You can't just skip over all of this and talk about the puppet regime.  


Meanwhile in the North...

Quote
When Soviet troops entered Pyongyang on August 24, 1945, they found a local People's Committee established there, led by veteran Christian nationalist Cho Man-sik.[4]:p.54–57 Unlike their American counterparts, the Soviet authorities recognized and worked with the People's Committees[5]:pp.105–107[6]:p.227–228 By some accounts, Cho Man-sik was the Soviet government's first choice to lead North Korea.

Up until 1950, there were still Koreans fighting for their country in the South, and the North knew this and wanted to liberate the South to unite the country.  Keep in mind, it was one Korea before the US divided it.   Kim Il Sung tried to peacefully unite the country through elections but puppet Rhee was not having it
Quote
On 7 June 1950, Kim Il-sung called for a Korea-wide election on 5–8 August 1950 and a consultative conference in Haeju on 15–17 June 1950. On 11 June, the North sent three diplomats to the South as a peace overture that Rhee rejected outright.[

Before calling the preemptive strike "unprovoked,  have to consider who Rhee was, how he came to power, and what is intentions were.
Quote
President Harry Truman installed Syngman Rhee as dictator. South Korea’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission recently estimated that Rhee killed from 100,000 to 200,000 political prisoners.

Rhee bragged about invading the North. “South Korea’s neurotic right-wing government leaders clamor stridently for United States help to ‘unify’ Korea — that is, for the South to conquer the North,” wrote Andrew Roth in the Nation magazine (Aug. 23, 1949).

Truman emissary John Foster Dulles went to South Korea five days before the war erupted. Dulles had been managing partner of Sullivan & Cromwell, the Rockefellers’ law firm and would become President Dwight Eisenhower’s secretary of state.

Dulles egged on Rhee, who had constantly launched attacks on the North. A half-billion dollars had been lavished on the South Korean puppet army and it was expected to roll over the North.
The US had no business intervening but the truth is that American capitalists were so butthurt about the "loss of china"  (as if china belonged to them in the first place) that they had to make an example of the next country that tried to control its own destiny.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_of_China
It sounds so absurd that if I didn't know any better, I'd think the notion was made up by anti-americans, but it really is an accurate portrayal of how US policy felt about a certain side winning a civil war on the other side of the planet.  

Quote

Since 1950 the difference in economic growth of the two Koreas is breathtaking.


You mean since 1976?  Another key detail you either didn't know or choose to omit in order to sound more convincing.  North Korea was more economically advanced than South Korea for 25 years and didn't stagnate until the 80s.  So many people form such strong opinions with so little information and without even bothering to look into context.

Actually I can and am ignoring your drivel and that is justified because I'm only looking at the economic picture.

A bit more of that, from the same reference.

North Korea operates under a tightly controlled command or planned economy, which is often labeled an unreformed dictatorial economy.

South Korea, which is a mixed economy, has seen significant growth, putting it in the top 20 countries by GDP in the world.

Some more interesting facts.

https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/south-korea.north-korea
Men live to average age 79 in NK, 66 in SK. Female 86 to 75. Infant mortality, SK 3.0/1000 NK 22/1000.
Severely underweight children < 5 years of age SK 0.7%, NK 15%

Got a few problems there with your commie paradise, buddy?
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April 21, 2019, 11:25:50 PM
 #19

Commies got definitely some correct points wrt the usa.

Since the US became the world super power the game was either submit to the US or get bombed to the stoneage.

Being bombed to the stoneage and being communist at the same time is probaly the worst possible combination ever.


Edit:

Being bombed to the stoneage doesnt necessary involve real bombs and rockets.
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April 22, 2019, 07:51:09 AM
 #20

Do you believe in NK media. I have read earlier that their state media broadcast  that their King is no earthly man and do not pass shit.
Did you believed in that shit story too?

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