Collecting Community input needed>> Definitions used in our unique hobby

[krogothmanhattan]

 b) Do not trust the grading that much after I saw them grade a killyou, satori chips and fake coins.

This just came up in a different forum about regular silver coins.

Short version:
Do we need a "graded reliable" and "graded unreliable"

Long version:
Do we need / should we have a discussion out here in public, probably on a separate thread about the "quality" or "accuracy" of coin grading houses in regard to cryptos?
If we know "A" will grade something that has been driven over by a UPS truck with a MS65 but "B" will kick it back to you with a comment of *hell no* scribbled on the receipt should this information be more accessible?

As krogothmanhattan said about checking the load of a coin. Caveat Emptor!  BUT, if without digging through 100s of posts it becomes almost impossible. Even with a bit of digging I still don't know who graded the killyou coin.

Dave's logic behind making this more public --> Anything we can do to help remove scammers is good. Anything we can do to make scammers lives more difficult is good. If a new person does not know and does not look to find out that's on them.  If they don't know and we do but don't tell them and make it difficult to find out, that's on us.

Counter argument --> We are not your mom. It's not our job.  

Sorry for the rambling, but someone on the silver forum just did a test with PCGS grading and it ended...poorly...lets leave it at that.

-Dave

  Look at the thread I made https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3315347.0

 Also look at the Sol Noctis fake that was graded.

  You can also dig in here for any coin... another thread of mine https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5130318.0

  And here are the killyou graded coins https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2654522.0

  Graded Satori Chips https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2017-Satori-Japan-0-001-BTC-BCH-Bitcoin-Token-PRE-FORK-Poker-Chip-ANACS-MS-69-/202665545278?oid=163612737442

  Great comments all around on your post by the way.

[1714038819]

1714038819

[1714038819]

1714038819

[Agrawas]

  b) Do not trust the grading that much after I saw them grade a killyou, satori chips and fake coins.

This just came up in a different forum about regular silver coins.

Short version:
Do we need a "graded reliable" and "graded unreliable"

Long version:
Do we need / should we have a discussion out here in public, probably on a separate thread about the "quality" or "accuracy" of coin grading houses in regard to cryptos?
If we know "A" will grade something that has been driven over by a UPS truck with a MS65 but "B" will kick it back to you with a comment of *hell no* scribbled on the receipt should this information be more accessible?

As krogothmanhattan said about checking the load of a coin. Caveat Emptor!  BUT, if without digging through 100s of posts it becomes almost impossible. Even with a bit of digging I still don't know who graded the killyou coin.

Dave's logic behind making this more public --> Anything we can do to help remove scammers is good. Anything we can do to make scammers lives more difficult is good. If a new person does not know and does not look to find out that's on them.  If they don't know and we do but don't tell them and make it difficult to find out, that's on us.

Counter argument --> We are not your mom. It's not our job. 

Sorry for the rambling, but someone on the silver forum just did a test with PCGS grading and it ended...poorly...lets leave it at that.

-Dave

For me frankly, coming from the world for collectibles of Gold and Silver coins. PCGS and NGC are the benchmark, certain people do like ANACS due to their historical presence, but ICG is used by some small time dealers who like to scam collectors by showing higher grade. To me ICG is just there to make money from the items that PCGS and NGC don't accept or get rejected or grade extremely poor. I would rather have my coins in original packaging than sending to ICG.

Coming on this forum lot of people convinced me that ICG was infact great but one of the coins I recently received which was MS69 from ICG, looking at it closer at the coin store with some high tech devices, it couldn't be more than 60 or 62 that too if PCGS or NGC are even accepting these coins.


Another concern I have specially with loaded coins that gets graded, specially a company like ICG, I don't think they have the expertise like some of our forum members(krogothmanhattan, MJ, and few more) in checking the holograms seals and all. If I peel off the hologram unload the coin, stick back the hologram, do you think ICG will catch it everytime? I don't think so. This is one of the reason they are saying on their slabs that they don't guarantee or check for the loaded value.

I am sorry my fellow collectors, it might be bitter truth about ICG, but it's true, you can cross check that at any of your local coin dealers.

[ChiBitCTy]

  b) Do not trust the grading that much after I saw them grade a killyou, satori chips and fake coins.

This just came up in a different forum about regular silver coins.

Short version:
Do we need a "graded reliable" and "graded unreliable"

Long version:
Do we need / should we have a discussion out here in public, probably on a separate thread about the "quality" or "accuracy" of coin grading houses in regard to cryptos?
If we know "A" will grade something that has been driven over by a UPS truck with a MS65 but "B" will kick it back to you with a comment of *hell no* scribbled on the receipt should this information be more accessible?

As krogothmanhattan said about checking the load of a coin. Caveat Emptor!  BUT, if without digging through 100s of posts it becomes almost impossible. Even with a bit of digging I still don't know who graded the killyou coin.

Dave's logic behind making this more public --> Anything we can do to help remove scammers is good. Anything we can do to make scammers lives more difficult is good. If a new person does not know and does not look to find out that's on them.  If they don't know and we do but don't tell them and make it difficult to find out, that's on us.

Counter argument --> We are not your mom. It's not our job. 

Sorry for the rambling, but someone on the silver forum just did a test with PCGS grading and it ended...poorly...lets leave it at that.

-Dave

For me frankly, coming from the world for collectibles of Gold and Silver coins. PCGS and NGC are the benchmark, certain people do like ANACS due to their historical presence, but ICG is used by some small time dealers who like to scam collectors by showing higher grade. To me ICG is just there to make money from the items that PCGS and NGC don't accept or get rejected or grade extremely poor. I would rather have my coins in original packaging than sending to ICG.

Coming on this forum lot of people convinced me that ICG was infact great but one of the coins I recently received which was MS69 from ICG, looking at it closer at the coin store with some high tech devices, it couldn't be more than 60 or 62 that too if PCGS or NGC are even accepting these coins.


Another concern I have specially with loaded coins that gets graded, specially a company like ICG, I don't think they have the expertise like some of our forum members(krogothmanhattan, MJ, and few more) in checking the holograms seals and all. If I peel off the hologram unload the coin, stick back the hologram, do you think ICG will catch it everytime? I don't think so. This is one of the reason they are saying on their slabs that they don't guarantee or check for the loaded value.

I am sorry my fellow collectors, it might be bitter truth about ICG, but it's true, you can cross check that at any of your local coin dealers.

You're not wrong. PCGS and NGC are absolutely the pinnacle of coin graders..but they won't touch our coins..yet (I'm working on them). ICG and ANACS are honestly more of a "hold over" for me. Neither are up there w/NGC or PCGS but at least they're grading our coins. It's nice to have your coin graded, though I like it more so just as a great capsule to protect my coins with a side benefit of grading that is "mostly accurate". If NGC or PCGS did ever start grading, I'd crack my coins out of the other graders and get them re-graded.

[Agrawas]

  b) Do not trust the grading that much after I saw them grade a killyou, satori chips and fake coins.

This just came up in a different forum about regular silver coins.

Short version:
Do we need a "graded reliable" and "graded unreliable"

Long version:
Do we need / should we have a discussion out here in public, probably on a separate thread about the "quality" or "accuracy" of coin grading houses in regard to cryptos?
If we know "A" will grade something that has been driven over by a UPS truck with a MS65 but "B" will kick it back to you with a comment of *hell no* scribbled on the receipt should this information be more accessible?

As krogothmanhattan said about checking the load of a coin. Caveat Emptor!  BUT, if without digging through 100s of posts it becomes almost impossible. Even with a bit of digging I still don't know who graded the killyou coin.

Dave's logic behind making this more public --> Anything we can do to help remove scammers is good. Anything we can do to make scammers lives more difficult is good. If a new person does not know and does not look to find out that's on them.  If they don't know and we do but don't tell them and make it difficult to find out, that's on us.

Counter argument --> We are not your mom. It's not our job. 

Sorry for the rambling, but someone on the silver forum just did a test with PCGS grading and it ended...poorly...lets leave it at that.

-Dave

For me frankly, coming from the world for collectibles of Gold and Silver coins. PCGS and NGC are the benchmark, certain people do like ANACS due to their historical presence, but ICG is used by some small time dealers who like to scam collectors by showing higher grade. To me ICG is just there to make money from the items that PCGS and NGC don't accept or get rejected or grade extremely poor. I would rather have my coins in original packaging than sending to ICG.

Coming on this forum lot of people convinced me that ICG was infact great but one of the coins I recently received which was MS69 from ICG, looking at it closer at the coin store with some high tech devices, it couldn't be more than 60 or 62 that too if PCGS or NGC are even accepting these coins.


Another concern I have specially with loaded coins that gets graded, specially a company like ICG, I don't think they have the expertise like some of our forum members(krogothmanhattan, MJ, and few more) in checking the holograms seals and all. If I peel off the hologram unload the coin, stick back the hologram, do you think ICG will catch it everytime? I don't think so. This is one of the reason they are saying on their slabs that they don't guarantee or check for the loaded value.

I am sorry my fellow collectors, it might be bitter truth about ICG, but it's true, you can cross check that at any of your local coin dealers.

You're not wrong. PCGS and NGC are absolutely the pinnacle of coin graders..but they won't touch our coins..yet (I'm working on them). ICG and ANACS are honestly more of a "hold over" for me. Neither are up there w/NGC or PCGS but at least they're grading our coins. It's nice to have your coin graded, though I like it more so just as a great capsule to protect my coins with a side benefit of grading that is "mostly accurate". If NGC or PCGS did ever start grading, I'd crack my coins out of the other graders and get them re-graded.

If you really want to store them in a nice holder, why waste your money for grading, plenty of other exact same holders available to store the coins safely. But I do see your point it's a matter for satisfaction for few.

[krogothmanhattan]

Just the simple fact I have to send my coins to be graded thru a postal system or courier for that matter and there is a chance damage or loss can happen, makes me shudder!

Never gonna happen with my coins. Locked away they are and locked away they shall stay. Or buried  

[Agrawas]

Just the simple fact I have to send my coins to be graded thru a postal system or courier for that matter and there is a chance damage or loss can happen, makes me shudder!

Never gonna happen with my coins. Locked away they are and locked away they shall stay. Or buried  

Got an address for where they are locked up?? 

[DaveF]

And this does kind of prove my point
To find opinions of graders you have to go to page 2 of a discussion about definitions.
To then find out more specific information on things that ANACS has graded you have to click on one of the links that krogoth put in his reply.
There is no place that really says new people click here.
Anybody want to buy an original Ravenbit sticker. It's graded DF68


-Dave

[Agrawas]

Just the simple fact I have to send my coins to be graded thru a postal system or courier for that matter and there is a chance damage or loss can happen, makes me shudder!

Never gonna happen with my coins. Locked away they are and locked away they shall stay. Or buried  

Got an address for where they are locked up??  

  Sure I do..but your gonna have to go thru me first...and believe me son...you don't wanna have to go thru a guy like me.

  Nothing will ever take away my precious  
  

You calling me son and not willing to share the wealth??  

P.S. will delete all these useless but fun comments after 24hrs if people like, since they are not related to the topic..

[BobbyCoins]

HODL vs. SODL => "The key to HODL is knowing when to SODL" (from medium.com)
FODL => if you sell BTC, you are basically FODLing (in the medium to long run)
A NODL is this full node: https://www.nodl.it/
And BUIDL (I believe Vitalik came up with this term...) has been touted by crypto advocates as the thing people in the crypto space should really be focusing on.


Taking the BUIDL part more serious I worked out a draft of a collectible-grading-standard because coin-grading became a noticeably important topic recently. It can be applied by anybody at home, is easy recognisable and goal is getting similar results, regardless of who is grading.
Intention behind such a self-developed standard is, not to wait for grading-services to come up with anything; rather exactly the other way around => making others adopt "our" community developed standard because already the knowledge of a handful OGs here outperformes easily what not orange-pilled coin-graders ever will know.... and as a community I'm pretty sure we can judge (maybe by voting) truthfully and fair where assessments ned to be done... but have a look by yourself, I'm curious what you think about it...



Edit 4 example:



Denarium Custom Gold Plated 2018 - F0130
1266 coins produced
CoA: unopened/original packaging + receipt
Buyer funded with 0,01BTC
No fotos or copies of the pubKey anywhere ;-)

According to the above rules grading would be: C-BTC-BF-1-3-0

...while the "1" is my personal opinion about Denarium... in practice exactly here we should find a common and fair ground together (maybe by voting, maybe by all the experiences we allready have).

[Steeley]

Krog,

This is a great thread and a good project.

Looks like the lion share of terms are indentified at this point. However, I would add 'custom' to the this. A couple of creators (and coincidentally you can see an example of this in the picture above of the Denarium. Custom value is obvious to us as synonymous with buyer funded, however, it is worth noting it for the sake of orienting new people in the hobby. I find that the un-initiated are confused by what Custom Value means.

Steeley

[krogothmanhattan]

Hi guys.....wow...I completely forgot about this...will update soon.

  Its funny in 2017 I met a bunch of guys from here and I made custom made posters for them as follows...








    I have also used similar to poster in the back of my new coin..

    Di you HODL or have you SODL your bitcoin

     

[BobbyCoins]

I did a little bit of refining (although ranges of visual conditions are still lacking) which brings the overall grading to way more realistic results... you'll see at the example coin ;-)
Any suggestions, correction of spelling errors, definitions I might still get totally wrong are very welcome!



So there occure several changes to the example coin: C-BTC-CF-2-4+-3

"2" because I used 07/2015 as starting point (like Denarium states on their homepage to have started funding their coins), close to 7 years in business with no databreaches or open issues known to me means 3 steps up the trust-ladder. As much as I like the idea of open look-up databases... it makes the addresses prone to dust-transactions (which isn't affecting the rating for now).

"4+" is self-explaing.

"3" because of lack of meaningful divisions => the coin is as good as it can be (in relative terms a "0") although I'm fully aware that in other series other standards apply... like "Polished Plate - PP" an loads of other numismatic terms.

edit: even the smallest mistake is important here and needs to be corrected ;-)

[krogoth]

I did a little bit of refining (although ranges of visual conditions are still lacking) which brings the overall grading to way more realistic results... you'll see at the example coin ;-)
Any suggestions, correction of spelling errors, definitions I might still get totally wrong are very welcome!



So there occure several changes to the example coin: C-BTC-CF-2-4+-3

"2" because I used 07/2015 as starting point (like Denarium states on their homepage to have started funding their coins), close to 7 years in business with no databreaches or open issues known to me means 3 steps up the trust-ladder. As much as I like the idea of open look-up databases... it makes the addresses prone to dust-transactions (which isn't affecting the rating for now).

"4+" is self-explaing.

"3" because of lack of meaningful divisions => the coin is as good as it can be (in relative terms a "0") although I'm fully aware that in other series other standards apply... like "Polished Plate - PP" an loads of other numismatic terms.

edit: even the smallest mistake is important here and needs to be corrected ;-)

  Hi Bobby, Thanks for taking the time to do this...I will add to the OP once I am home on my safe PC and use my krogothmanhattan login. It looks good.

[aoluain]

Krog,

This is a great thread and a good project.

Looks like the lion share of terms are indentified at this point. However, I would add 'custom' to the this. A couple of creators (and coincidentally you can see an example of this in the picture above of the Denarium. Custom value is obvious to us as synonymous with buyer funded, however, it is worth noting it for the sake of orienting new people in the hobby. I find that the un-initiated are confused by what Custom Value means.

Steeley

what about considering "Custom Design"?

willi9974 has a coin currently which offers ^limitedcustom design
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5382457.0