Storing private keys on servers

[aliashraf]

[...] op claimed that HD wallets are not good because s/he was confused about what the concept is [...]

Where did OP say that ?

Maybe learn to read properly ? ..

OR may be you need to learn it:

Thanks bob123 for such a great clarification.

yeah the issue is I've to generate separate address for each user and in case of ethereum the hd wallets doesn't works like bitcoin where we can just select UTXOs and make a transaction.

bob123 gives the most optimal solution

It is where she applauded your irrelevant answer ignorantly and stated that hd wallets are not usefull because they don't work just like bitcoin! Obviously our newbie has read something (this is what newbies do) but her conclusion is absolutely wrong so she is going to make like thousands of key pairs (thanks to you) and figuring out how to save them! Ruining a cryptocurrency project probably in a third world country (again thanks to you and your desperate need for being applauded)
 

If instead of trying to show-off you bother to read op's inquiry it is more than obvious that s/he is trying to handle thousands of private keys because s/he is not aware of HD wallets and the feasibility of having one master key and thousands of bitcoin addresses assigned to users, it is why s/he asks about the security of keeping track of so many private keys supposedly on a server using a database.

OP never mentioned anything about 'keeping track of private keys', but on how to store them securely.
Also.. how do you come to the conclusion that OP does not know what a HD wallet is   He never mentioned anything which could lead to that conclusion.

it is the opening post of the topic:

Hi, I'm newbie in crypto world and working on a tranding platform. I've to generate separate addresses against every user and stuck at how to securely store the private keys. I've looked into the ecc encryption, AWS KMS, and hashicorp vault but the common thing among all the methods is, the decryption password or token is still stored on the server. So if the server got compromised everything is gone. Now my question is what is the best way to store the private keys. Thanks!  

See? OP thinks she has tons of private keys to save, she is a traditional web developer, she knows handling large numbers of data needs database services and servers and is worried about security of this scheme. This is a common pattern among newbies and I've encountered it a zillion times and without illiterate posters like you around I've always been helpful by introducing HD wallets to them and ensuring them there is no crisis at all and they need to keep just two keys safe master public key and master private key some more details and we are done.

In this case you distracted the user by discussing about an entirely irrelevant subject: cold vs hot wallets which was absolutely unnecessary. A typical  web application that is supposed to give its users bitcoin/crypto payment utilities does not have to handle refunds online at least in its first stages of development, there is no need to have any hot wallet at all!

Even with a HD wallet, you have to handle all private keys.

Good (and big) online services do not use a wallet software like electrum etc. to handle their keys. They build their own software (which obviously have to handle private keys..).

Irrelevant:
Your scenario is not applicable to all online services, most of them does not even need any form of hot wallet
Misinformation:
They don't keep track of 'private keys' there is just one private key to be kept secure for the hot wallet and it is not common case and is applicable to centralized exchange services and similar applications that are supposed to support withdraw/refund operations.

In the rest of your post you are rehashing your above claims wasting your and my time.

[bob123]

[...] op claimed that HD wallets are not good because s/he was confused about what the concept is [...]

Where did OP say that ?

Maybe learn to read properly ? ..

OR may be you need to learn it:

Thanks bob123 for such a great clarification.

yeah the issue is I've to generate separate address for each user and in case of ethereum the hd wallets doesn't works like bitcoin where we can just select UTXOs and make a transaction.

bob123 gives the most optimal solution

It is where she applauded your irrelevant answer ignorantly and stated that hd wallets are not usefull because they don't work just like bitcoin! Obviously our newbie has read something (this is what newbies do) but her conclusion is absolutely wrong so she is going to make like thousands of key pairs (thanks to you) and figuring out how to save them! Ruining a cryptocurrency project probably in a third world country (again thanks to you and your desperate need for being applauded)

You are just delusional.

Even with a HD wallet, you HAVE TO GENERATE multiple private keys (1 per address).

You obviously don't understand anything at all.. You DO NOT sign transactions with your SEED.. for gods sake.. better stop posting for a few years and learn all the basic stuff you don't know yet..

If instead of trying to show-off you bother to read op's inquiry it is more than obvious that s/he is trying to handle thousands of private keys because s/he is not aware of HD wallets and the feasibility of having one master key and thousands of bitcoin addresses assigned to users, it is why s/he asks about the security of keeping track of so many private keys supposedly on a server using a database.

OP never mentioned anything about 'keeping track of private keys', but on how to store them securely.
Also.. how do you come to the conclusion that OP does not know what a HD wallet is  He never mentioned anything which could lead to that conclusion.

it is the opening post of the topic:

Hi, I'm newbie in crypto world and working on a tranding platform. I've to generate separate addresses against every user and stuck at how to securely store the private keys. I've looked into the ecc encryption, AWS KMS, and hashicorp vault but the common thing among all the methods is, the decryption password or token is still stored on the server. So if the server got compromised everything is gone. Now my question is what is the best way to store the private keys. Thanks! 

See? OP thinks she has tons of private keys to save, she is a traditional web developer, she knows handling large numbers of data needs database services and servers and is worried about security of this scheme. This is a common pattern among newbies and I've encountered it a zillion times and without illiterate posters like you around I've always been helpful by introducing HD wallets to them and ensuring them there is no crisis at all and they need to keep just two keys safe master public key and master private key some more details and we are done.

OP HAS TO generate multiple private keys.
A HD wallet just says HOW TO create them.. But you still need 1 per address.. Is that really that hard to understand ?!

The point is.. he wants to keep them SECURE.. not HOW he creates them.. 


You have been helpful ? 
Name me a few web service which handle user funds where you 'helped' a newbie to set it up.. 

I'd love to start some penetration testing against those platforms.. probably wouldn't take more than a few hours to find severe vulnerabilities.. And you are the one to blame.

Even with a HD wallet, you have to handle all private keys.

Good (and big) online services do not use a wallet software like electrum etc. to handle their keys. They build their own software (which obviously have to handle private keys..).

Irrelevant:
Your scenario is not applicable to all online services, most of them does not even need any form of hot wallet
Misinformation:
They don't keep track of 'private keys' there is just one private key to be kept secure for the hot wallet and it is not common case and is applicable to centralized exchange services and similar applications that are supposed to support withdraw/refund operations.

In the rest of your post you are rehashing your above claims wasting your and my time.

I have never encountered such a large amount of nonsense in 1 person. You are a shame.

You can NOT SIGN transactions with your master private key.
You can derive your private keys from it, but you still need to use them to sign transactions..

So.. what do you do ? Create the private key, sign a transaction and delete it.. to 'not having to keep it'.. because of 'security' ?

Please stop being so delusional. Thats horrific. You don't have any clue on how to create a concept for an online service.
You probably can't even protect your own coins properly.



There is literally just 1 post from you which contains the truth:

I just filled all of the info and proved to be the foollest btctalk member ever.  I think it worth like 500 merits from theymos directly, I deserve legendary title because of it. 

This shows 1) how dumb you are and that you even know it and 2) that you are eager for merit.
That's not a good combination 

[aliashraf]

[...] op claimed that HD wallets are not good because s/he was confused about what the concept is [...]

Where did OP say that ?

Maybe learn to read properly ? ..

OR may be you need to learn it:

Thanks bob123 for such a great clarification.

yeah the issue is I've to generate separate address for each user and in case of ethereum the hd wallets doesn't works like bitcoin where we can just select UTXOs and make a transaction.

bob123 gives the most optimal solution

It is where she applauded your irrelevant answer ignorantly and stated that hd wallets are not usefull because they don't work just like bitcoin! Obviously our newbie has read something (this is what newbies do) but her conclusion is absolutely wrong so she is going to make like thousands of key pairs (thanks to you) and figuring out how to save them! Ruining a cryptocurrency project probably in a third world country (again thanks to you and your desperate need for being applauded)

You are just delusional.

Even with a HD wallet, you HAVE TO GENERATE multiple private keys (1 per address).

You obviously don't understand anything at all.. You DO NOT sign transactions with your SEED.. for gods sake.. better stop posting for a few years and learn all the basic stuff you don't know yet.

Stop your personal attacks!
1- GENERATING is irrelevant, to generate a key we need a piece of code and the master private key, so we don't need to save/keep track of the corresponding private keys for addresses we have assigned to our users who have made deposits/payments.

2- Accessing funds deposited by users is out of scopes of most online services, hence it is typically unnecessary to have the master private key stored on the server at all.

Stop spreading misinformation to justify your thirst for credit, you made a mistake I corrected it, user is now focusing on what I said instead of your bullshits about hot wallets and cold wallets.

Just stop it, otherwise I'll report your actions as personal attack and vandalism.

OP HAS TO generate multiple private keys.
A HD wallet just says HOW TO create them.. But you still need 1 per address.. Is that really that hard to understand ?!

The point is.. he wants to keep them SECURE.. not HOW he creates them..  

generating keys is done with a piece of code and a master public key no need to keep anything SECURE, there is no private key even one in the whole server to be saved and kept secure.

Even with a HD wallet, you have to handle all private keys.

Good (and big) online services do not use a wallet software like electrum etc. to handle their keys. They build their own software (which obviously have to handle private keys..).

Irrelevant:
Your scenario is not applicable to all online services, most of them does not even need any form of hot wallet
Misinformation:
They don't keep track of 'private keys' there is just one private key to be kept secure for the hot wallet and it is not common case and is applicable to centralized exchange services and similar applications that are supposed to support withdraw/refund operations.

In the rest of your post you are rehashing your above claims wasting your and my time.

I have never encountered such a large amount of nonsense in 1 person. You are a shame.

You can NOT SIGN transactions with your master private key.
You can derive your private keys from it, but you still need to use them to sign transactions..

So.. what do you do ? Create the private key, sign a transaction and delete it.. to 'not having to keep it'.. because of 'security' ?

Please stop being so delusional. Thats horrific. You don't have any clue on how to create a concept for an online service.
You probably can't even protect your own coins properly.

Nobody said to sign a transaction directly by your master private key but it is what happens indirectly:

1- User makes a deposit to an address that you've generated by your master public key online and assigned to him.

2- You decide to spend it for some reason

3- You run your wallet software, supplying your unique seed and the address you wish to spend from

4- Your software derives corresponding private and public key, generates the transaction, relays it to the network, erases the keys from the memory and you are done!

I know for a frustrated person who is desperately obsessed with his credit it is so hard to read and understand anything but try your best.

There is literally just 1 post from you which contains the truth:

I just filled all of the info and proved to be the foollest btctalk member ever.  I think it worth like 500 merits from theymos directly, I deserve legendary title because of it.  

It was April's fool joke and we had fun, it is how you read my posts as a stalker?   What's your IQ anyway?

EDIT:
It was more productive and helpful If you were arguing more politely and in a humble way, I think not only op but a lot of people who have not enough expertise in bitcoin and crypto technology have problems with keu management because they have no clue about how great HD wallets are. Most of these guys are very experienced in e-commerce and web application development and in most cases they simply need a simple integration of bitcoin as a payment system discussing hot/cold wallet issues with them is just wasting time and a distraction what they really need is a brief understanding of HD wallets.

[bob123]

~snip~
generating keys is done with a piece of code and a master public key no need to keep anything SECURE, there is no private key even one in the whole server to be saved and kept secure.
~snip~

That's enough for everyone to see that you are talking about something, which you have no knowledge of at all.

You don't understand how one should develop a concept for automatic withdrawals.
You don't understand that security plays a huge role, regardless of whether private keys are stored on the server or not.
You don't understand that one can steal funds of a badly constructed web server which handles user funds even without any private key.
You don't understand that your 'approach' (if you really want to call it approach) is just inefficient and retarded.


So, stop talking about HD wallets. That was NEVER the topic in this thread.
I know that you unfortunately can't understand this.. But in this case, just start getting some basic knowledge first before trying to help people (which results in delusional bad posts with zero quality / relevance).

[aliashraf]

~snip~
generating keys is done with a piece of code and a master public key no need to keep anything SECURE, there is no private key even one in the whole server to be saved and kept secure.
~snip~

That's enough for everyone to see that you are talking about something, which you have no knowledge of at all.

You don't understand how one should develop a concept for automatic withdrawals.
You don't understand that security plays a huge role, regardless of whether private keys are stored on the server or not.{ Are you joking?}
You don't understand that one can steal funds of a badly constructed web server which handles user funds even without any private key. { Joking again? stealing funds without keys? }
You don't understand that your 'approach' (if you really want to call it approach) is just inefficient and retarded.


So, stop talking about HD wallets. That was NEVER the topic in this thread.
I know that you unfortunately can't understand this.. But in this case, just start getting some basic knowledge first before trying to help people (which results in delusional bad posts with zero quality / relevance).

Automatic withdrawals is not the topic. It is what you know something about and you want to show-off with and has ruined the topic and distracted op for this.

Nobody has asked anything about user withdrawing funds ever! It is a trolling and show-off, what you are doing here.
Op is asking about a simple web application that assigns users addresses for their payments (invoices, ...) you deliberately distracted her to an irrelevant topic about hot vs cold wallets and now you are making excuses about it being about automatic withdrawals!

Who do you suppose op is? A centralized exchange developer? No! She is new to crypto, she got thousands of users and wants to assign them addresses (you don't assign addresses for withdrawals users do!), there is no glue to stick withdrawals to this topic.

Now try to overcome to your anger and realize what is going on here:
1- A newbie is confused about how to manage deposits/payments made by her users, concerned about saving/tracking/keeping secure corresponding private keys which she thinks their cardinality is the same as assigned addresses.

2- A person (Bob) with lots of merits comes and says nonsense about hot wallets and cold wallets which eventually he admits it is about automatic withdrawals!

3- The newbie says thank you to that person and is about to make the most tragic decision ever and ruining her project and bitcoin reputation in her local market.

4- Another person (Ali) with comparable rank intervenes and politely denounces Bob's recommendation as being helpful and gives the proper solution which is using a HD wallet properly.

5-Bob who is apparently very sensitive about his credit or hates Ali for some unknown reason, starts a shameful campaign against him to prove himself knowledgeable and Ali as being stupid or something.

How do you feel about this Bob?  

[bob123]

Automatic withdrawals is not the topic. It is what you know something about and you want to show-off with and has ruined the topic and distracted op for this.

Nobody has asked anything about user withdrawing funds ever! It is a trolling and show-off, what you are doing here.

Well, you obviously didn't read the OP properly (or you are not able to understand what you read):

Hi, I'm  [...] working on a tranding platform. [...]  and stuck at how to securely store the private keys. I've looked into the ecc encryption [...]

Sure, i forgot.. trading platforms don't offer their user to withdraw their funds 

Op is asking about a simple web application that assigns users addresses for their payments (invoices, ...) you deliberately distracted her to an irrelevant topic about hot vs cold wallets and now you are making excuses about it being about automatic withdrawals!

Yes. A trading platform which handles user funds is a 'simple web application'. 
You do realize that a trading platform consists of more than just assigning address to users in a database? 

Now try to overcome to your anger and realize what is going on here:
1- A newbie is confused about how to manage deposits/payments made by her users, concerned about saving/tracking/keeping secure corresponding private keys
2- A person (Bob) with lots of merits comes and says nosens about hot wallets and cold wallets which eventually he admits it is about automatic withdrawals!
3- The newbie says thank you to that person and is about to make the most tragic decision ever and ruining her project and bitcoin reputation in her local market.
4- Another person (Ali) with comparable rank intervenes and politely denounces Bob's recommendation as being helpful and gives the proper solution which is using a HD wallet properly.
5-Bob who is apparently very sensitive about his credit or hates Ali for some unknown reason, starts a shameful campaign against him to prove himself knowledgeable and Ali as being stupid or something.

How do you feel about this Bob? 

I feel like this:

Number 3)
He is going to ruin his project, because... he makes sure that all of his funds won't get stolen ? Or because.. he does secure his coins ? 

Number 4) is retarded.
Because no one talked whether he generates the private keys randomly or using a seed (which makes it a HD wallet).
So the "another person" was just coming and posting off-topic shit noone cared about, showing off how slow-minded he is. No one was talking about HOW to create the private keys..

Number 5)
Bob is very sensitive about bullshit being posted by people who don't know what they are talking about (ali).


Also.. why are you so obsessed with these stupid merits 
You get merit for good posts.. why can't you just stop talking about merits? Is it because you are jealous that i am in the list of the most merited user on this forum - and you are not ?

[aliashraf]

Automatic withdrawals is not the topic. It is what you know something about and you want to show-off with and has ruined the topic and distracted op for this.

Nobody has asked anything about user withdrawing funds ever! It is a trolling and show-off, what you are doing here.

Well, you obviously didn't read the OP properly (or you are not able to understand what you read):

Hi, I'm  [...] working on a tranding platform. [...]  and stuck at how to securely store the private keys. I've looked into the ecc encryption [...]

Sure, i forgot.. trading platforms don't offer their user to withdraw their funds  

Improve your attitude.

"A trading platform" used by a non-native English writer is not explicitly mentioning a cryptocurrency exchange. More importantly the problem for op is not how users withdraw (if ever) it is about how they deposit!

Op is worried about managing deposits, you are trying to cover the mess but you can't. Even with your weird scenariothat a person new to cryptocurrency is developing a centralized exchange (just because a non-native writer has used a loose term like trading platform) you should've noticed that what she is actually worried about: deposits/payments.

Otherwise and if it was about withdrawals why should op ever have mentioned anything about assigned addresses and private keys? Withdrawing funds by users how could ever be related to their deposit addresses?

Op is asking about a simple web application that assigns users addresses for their payments (invoices, ...) you deliberately distracted her to an irrelevant topic about hot vs cold wallets and now you are making excuses about it being about automatic withdrawals!

Yes. A trading platform which handles user funds is a 'simple web application'.  
You do realize that a trading platform consists of more than just assigning address to users in a database?  

No I don't realize  
An online shop that accepts bitcoin for instance is a simple application whether you believe it or not  
All you need is a HD wallet (off-line/cold), its master public key, a piece of code that derives addresses from this key, a database that keeps track of invoices and assigned addresses, a full node (preferably yours) that is regularly queried for pending invoices, and you are done!

The worst thing about your posts here is their effect on newbies: causing confusions that discourage people from adopting bitcoin by spreading misinformation about complexities that never exist.

[bob123]

"A trading platform" used by a non-native English writer is not explicitly mentioning a cryptocurrency exchange. More importantly the problem for op is not how users withdraw (if ever) it is about how they deposit!

Op is worried about managing deposits, you are trying to cover the mess but you can't. Even with your weird scenariothat a person new to cryptocurrency is developing a centralized exchange (just because a non-native writer has used a loose term like trading platform) you should've noticed that what she is actually worried about: deposits/payments.

Otherwise and if it was about withdrawals why should op ever have mentioned anything about assigned addresses and private keys? Withdrawing funds by users how could ever be related to their deposit addresses?

Did i ever mention it is a cryptocurrency exchange ? No.
But 'trading platform' implies that something is being traded.

He never mentioned how to handle deposits. He asked how to securely manage private keys on an online server. You still seem to lack the ability to understand what it is all about.

The main goal of a web service which handles user funds is to secure those funds. All of your so-called 'help' (a.k.a 'use HD wallet OP bro') doesn't help at all and is - in the best case - just spam.

No I don't realize 

We know that already. You made that more than clear.

An online shop that accepts bitcoin for instance is a simple application whether you believe it or not 

A trading platform is not an online shop.
Please don't tell me that you don't even understand the difference between those two..


Since we are drifting off-topic too much and you simply don't understand the importance of security in a crypto-based trading platform, i will stop replying to you from now on.
It is not a help for anyone reading this thread, and neither are you able to learn from it.

[aliashraf]

Did i ever mention it is a cryptocurrency exchange ? No.
But 'trading platform' implies that something is being traded.

He never mentioned how to handle deposits. He asked how to securely manage private keys on an online server. You still seem to lack the ability to understand what it is all about.

You have the spirit, but it is not enough.

I'm not the one in the aggressive position who insults others just because they have refuted his argument but it is getting seriously crazy:

Why in the hell anybody should ask anything about managing private keys other than handling  deposits/payments made by users?  

Op says he has to generate thousands of addresses for users and is worried about saving corresponding private keys and you are saying it is not about deposits/payments? What the hell it could ever be about?

Users asking for withdrawals (if ever) has absolutely nothing to do with addresses generated for their deposits/invoices, is it that hard to understand?

I need an apology from your side for being rude and reckless, otherwise don't expect much respect from my side ever.

I think it just happens, we make comments and sometimes we are not exactly right (like when we don't read the question carefully), it is not good practice to bite peers just because they've slightly corrected us, I've never seen such a behavior in this forum. You are in the edge of getting promoted, behave like a legendary member not a troll, please.

[jak3]

why will you even store your private keys on a server? why not a personal wallet. It's too obvious that no matter how strong a server is it can somehow get compromised and on the other hand a personal wallet on a phone or on the desktop is far more secure. servers store private keys for temporary reasons like for you so you can have a good user experiance. like trading or gambling on those servers, it is like your personal wallet on the server but yes for better security you have to take the security on your hands.