USA BTC KYC Supposed Regulations On In/Out Transactions. Effects? Poll!

[Searing]

Well. as long as I'm making 'dubious' polls on stuff, here is another one.

On the 'supposition' that the outgoing Trump Administration and not liking BTC/Crypto in any manner, doing yet more 'dubious' regulations but this time

having BTC/Crypto in their sites. They announce the supposed 'clarity' regulations on all exchanges must keep track of KYC (Know Your Customer) on all

transactions (both ends) in and out? There is also a 'possibility' of the above is true that everyone in USA would have to declare self-hosting wallets like

Bitcoin Paper Wallets and Trezor, etc. Yeah, it would really, really suck. But for now lets just go with the idea that KYC can even be done in/out on a USA exchange

vs everyone just ignoring USA exchanges on such a rule and doing KYC on overseas exchanges instead if you are a USA citizen.

Well, the first thing, obviously, from this FU BTC/Crypto last gasp of the Trump Administration would be this would not be uncommon. The former Trump Adiminstration

is making confusing and dubious rule changes and FUD for lots of stuff before the Biden Administration comes in, just to muddy the waters. Why Not? All of the parties

making, in particular, this 'supposed' clarity Bitcoin/Crypto regulation are out of office before Biden swears in as President. So no harm/fall can befall them. So why not?

Things that come to mind:

Could, if limited to USA Exchanges like Coinbase, even be able to DO KYC for in/out transactions on everything? Especially if I suspect this 'supposed' regulation

would go in by 1/1/2021. I think not!

Would not the 'push-back' by Gemini Trust and Coinbase and Square etc just stop this 'dubious' last minute regulation in its tracks?

Would not the Biden Administration seeing this and all the other 'dubious' last minute executive orders and regulations coming out of the former Trump Administration

simply not put a ban on anything done in the last 6 months of the election of such stuff? That is what I'd do to nip this massive FUD in most areas, including BTC/Crypto.

Anyway, a small 'horror' story...what if..kinda thing here.

What do you think would happen if such was actually attempted and pushed out here before the January 20th, 2021 swearing in of the Biden Administration?

Reply below and/or take the poll.

Sorry, bored in the pandemic..thus this 'what if" on this 'supposed' soon to be announced clarity of regulation and FUD.

links below

Coinbase CEO

https://www.coindesk.com/coinbase-ceo-trump-administration-may-rush-out-burdensome-crypto-wallet-rules

Trump Administration's take on this.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/04/top-currency-regulator-says-to-expect-clarity-in-coming-weeks-on-bitcoin.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/12/us/politics/treasury-cryptocurrency.html

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/treasury-secretary-mnuchin-says-there-is-strong-support-to-regulate-digital-currencies-2020-12-07

U.S. Lawmakers say Back Off!

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/us-lawmakers-tell-mnuchin-to-back-off-from-potential-crypto-wallet-regs-2020-12-09

Anyway, your thoughts? Consider taking the Poll!

Brad

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[1715477906]

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[Searing]

Reserved.

[Searing]

FinCEN Proposes KYC For Withdrawing Cryptocurrency To Private Wallets 12/18/2020

I 'believe' this only applies to USA BTC/Crypto Exchanges like Coinbase?

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/fincen-proposes-kyc-for-withdrawing-cryptocurrency-to-private-wallets

This shoe just dropped. To me it does not look like that big a deal....and was expected...but I know zip, others on here?

Smarter than myself? I also started a thread for more details. (Hey, it's over my head, need smarter analysis!)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5301400.msg55864903#msg55864903

Brad

[MoreStamps.Global]

It was highly anticipated and I don't think it is that much of an impact. Yes, it affects larger volume indeed but p2p will be a way out. What do you think?

[BrewMaster]

it is like saying that whoever owns cash must report the exact amount, where they keep it (in which pocket) and where they spend it. they can force it all they want but it is not possible!

everything else that involves one part being centralized like using exchanges was already regulated a couple of years ago and they have all been reporting both in and out transactions from their wallets to the authorities. so there is nothing left to change.

[Searing]

it is like saying that whoever owns cash must report the exact amount, where they keep it (in which pocket) and where they spend it. they can force it all they want but it is not possible!

everything else that involves one part being centralized like using exchanges was already regulated a couple of years ago and they have all been reporting both in and out transactions from their wallets to the authorities. so there is nothing left to change.

The proposed Treasury Regulation is so 'vague' I can't figure out if it even applies to individuals. Like I send over $10k to my buddy in Iowa...via 2 blockchains....say for the

purpose of mining equipment we want to split and run on say the Bitcoin blockchain. Do I have to report this because it is 2 private wallets? Or does the Treasury

regulations only apply to in/out of fiat with cryptocurrency address in whatever particular currency like USD you want to get in and out for KYC?

Also, even if I was supposed to do KYC for my buddy on the above, could I now say 'he has a Coinbase account so I don't have to do KYC because he already

has been 'vetted' in his Coinbase account with KYC? The regulation does say know the party at the other end and KYC, right?

Cluster! I suppose we should be thankful the Trump Administration did not just try to out and out ban BTC/Crypto. I mean they were discussing Martial Law

for crying out loud. I suppose banning BTC/Crypto is on the agenda for the week after Xmas instead?

Brad

[20kevin20]

I guess it would be both a success and a failure on the government's side. While this can clearly not be imposed for everyone, it would make it a pain in the arse to use cryptocurrencies in the USA which would certainly slow down the adoption and crash the price for a while. But I care more about the adoption and potential highly negative effects this would have over BTC than the price crashing.

It may be hard to impose it for all USA citizens using Bitcoin, but would you risk getting caught? Who would?

[Searing]

I guess it would be both a success and a failure on the government's side. While this can clearly not be imposed for everyone, it would make it a pain in the arse to use cryptocurrencies in the USA which would certainly slow down the adoption and crash the price for a while. But I care more about the adoption and potential highly negative effects this would have over BTC than the price crashing.

It may be hard to impose it for all USA citizens using Bitcoin, but would you risk getting caught? Who would?

Again, from what I can tell from the dubious and vague Bitcoin/Cryptocurrency regulations that have been proposed, is that it ONLY will be 'at least only', 'enforceable in the United

States and on Bitcoin/Crypto going in and out of USA based Know Your Customer (KYC) exchanges. NOT, to my buddy and me exchanging Bitcoin/Crypto vs 2 private, say

paperwallet transactions. (Although, from the amounts going overseas...that may not a apply simply because you are going outside the USA, I'm more than unclear on that

part of the 'side-action' of BTC/Crypto transactions outside the USA and overseas)

The whole think 'hopefully' is such a muddled, rushed out, with no consultation from anybody and no real public comment process..not to mention that the courts really,

really, hate vague stuff..as seen in this rushed out BTC/Crypto regulations proposal...it all will come to nothing.

EXCEPT, I can see the Biden Administration either leaving in or adding to a reformed version of these proposed regulations that all BTC/Crypto in and out of a USA

exchange, in addition to the current KYC stuff, has to go to an address you specify...in other words, I make a new paper wallet and tell say Coinbase that this is MINE

and Coinbase, with my current KYC ONLY pays out Bitcoin/Crypto to such an 'owned' wallet that I swear is my own. That way the government has an easier way to control

KYC to the masses. I also suspect if it is more than $10k you have to do the usual (auto on Coinbase site say) click a box or complete a form that this is NOT for

illicit purposes. The reason I think this is that it would limit all KYC stuff on USA exchanges to 1 address going out..so if they did go after somebody they would have this

ONE starting place and 'confirmed' only to be used address to track blockchain from.

I guess I could live with such, but I really, really, think this is likely the only way in/out centralized way of BTC/Crypto to fiat or USD any government can control.

I just hope they don't exchange the same logic to regular bank accounts and you have to 'pin' any BTC/Crypto address as a run through with them as well.

I suppose that will be the next step.

Brad

[20kevin20]

I honestly don't think it'll come to nothing. They're testing the waters in a subtle attempt to find out whether there'll be a strong rejection of their idea from the community or not. In the end, they'll probably just keep on coming up with more and more regulations until we can't have it anymore and the community starts to strongly oppose them.

Be it enforcing KYC for all addresses one person owns or forcing exchanges to accept deposits from and withdrawals to only 1 single address, it's bad in both cases and it makes me believe they're looking forward to coming up with even more absurd regulations. They have a big advantage, and that is the fact that most people just don't care. The amount of people actually interested in keeping Bitcoin's fundamental ideas strong and going is way too small for them to care. When most of the Bitcoin users are profit-seekers, it's pretty much a lost battle for us.

[Searing]

I honestly don't think it'll come to nothing. They're testing the waters in a subtle attempt to find out whether there'll be a strong rejection of their idea from the community or not. In the end, they'll probably just keep on coming up with more and more regulations until we can't have it anymore and the community starts to strongly oppose them.

Be it enforcing KYC for all addresses one person owns or forcing exchanges to accept deposits from and withdrawals to only 1 single address, it's bad in both cases and it makes me believe they're looking forward to coming up with even more absurd regulations. They have a big advantage, and that is the fact that most people just don't care. The amount of people actually interested in keeping Bitcoin's fundamental ideas strong and going is way too small for them to care. When most of the Bitcoin users are profit-seekers, it's pretty much a lost battle for us.

Yep, that is how centralized power and the status quo works (some countries status quo may be ok...not so much in some banana republics...it depends)

so gov't/status quo/banks/wealthy/powerful status quo will push and push, and 'mostly' get frustrated...

Bitcoin was made in a 'decentralized' format for a reason and international use and as an alternative to

centralized power/money and finance...so again, some regulations may be there....like I said in/out from fiat and back in/out to Bitcoin...on say exchanges...only

beyond that massive pushback..and indeed...remember al bank coins and gov't cons, etc will always be 'centralized' (can add money like a federal reserve) and/or

based 1 to 1 to say USD or whatever..thus the same inflation that applies to printing money would apply to the centralized gov't currencies.

Thus, in such a scenario of economic downturn, people would still turn to decentralized Bitcoin/Crypto to get around inflation and/or the printing of more virtual coins

with in either case 'diluting' the value of centralized bank coins or 1-1 to fiat coins or gov't coins. The reality would always shine through when the market forces

of the world tank. So even if such digital currencies of a centralized or gov't nature above are made..when times are hard everyone will still run to Bitcoin/Crypto

that is decentralized ...just like now with fiat when it all hits the skids all currencies lose ground to the US dollar. This is the 'genius' of Satoshi!

Brad

[figmentofmyass]

i think this is mostly about preventing exchanges from being used to transmit money to third parties on behalf of customers, as opposed to more orwellian notions like forcing citizens to declare bitcoin holdings.

---not to imply that i'm thrilled about these incoming regulations or anything.

U.S. Lawmakers say Back Off!

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/us-lawmakers-tell-mnuchin-to-back-off-from-potential-crypto-wallet-regs-2020-12-09

i don't wanna get my hopes up too much, but that's comforting to see!

[davis196]

it is like saying that whoever owns cash must report the exact amount, where they keep it (in which pocket) and where they spend it. they can force it all they want but it is not possible!

everything else that involves one part being centralized like using exchanges was already regulated a couple of years ago and they have all been reporting both in and out transactions from their wallets to the authorities. so there is nothing left to change.

Well,the government officials don't view cryptocurrencies are an alternative(or a new form) of cash and fiat money.They view cryptocurrencies as digital financial assets only.
This seems to me like another bureaucratic BS.Such new rules won't help for increasing the tax revenue or reducing money laundering that is conducted inside crypto exchange platforms.
I don't think that this has anything to do with politics.The Trump administration didn't care that much about the crypto industry.The Biden administration won't care that much about the crypto world as well.

[x4mlxymk]

More likely the Federal Reserve will end the Dollar's reign,by mass printing more dollars.
Anyway,the US dollar might not be a world's reserve currency after 10-20 years,but it will remain the national currency of USA,as long as USA continues to exist in the next centuries.
USA still has the strongest economy in the world,which means that the US dollar will still be very strong,even though it won't be a reserve currency for many central banks around the world..

[DoublerHunter]

^ For me whatever happens, KYC will never be a threat to BTC. It actually helps BTC to build trust in consumers and attracts people who would like to have securities. KYC will help BTC for that matter.  As a matter of fact, this KYC is only harmful to the entities and individuals who are doing some grey stuff. Let us consider the fact that from time to time, centralization could be a partner of cryptocurrency in the future.

[Darker45]

I am looking at it as a moderate threat so I voted for it, but I think it will only slow down adoption to a certain extent but not really dump price. However grave the threats are from government regulators, they do not invalidate the basic arguments of Bitcoin. As a matter of fact, they might actually even make them stronger and more valid, that we should try to find alternative ways to get away from the choking government's claws.

Finally, this only matters because the US is playing a vital role in the crypto market, at least for now. But it can easily be observed how the market has actually spread across the world.

[pooya87]

The real question is whether we are going to see the start of a mass migration of all bitcoin related businesses to outside of US.
For example the more restrictions and stupid rules enforced by exchanges, the less customers they are going to get which means less profit and finally they will face a decision to either shut down shop or migrate.
It has happened in the past too but it was a state-wide migration not country-wide.