Bitcoin Forum
April 25, 2024, 02:35:00 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Hardware wallets on USB pendrive  (Read 609 times)
pawanjain (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 2660
Merit: 713


Nothing lasts forever


View Profile
May 04, 2019, 02:37:20 PM
 #21

I must say guys that was an intriguing debate. No offence to anybody here but in my mind @bob123 has already won while @naska21 gave him a strong debate.
Hardware wallets are better than USB flash drives as an infected machine can lead to loss of coins. While it is hardly possible to be the victim of an infected machine in today's computer with GPT/UEFI, there will always remain a "minor" risk that can lead to loss of coins. This "Secure element" as you guys say, gives the edge to the hardware wallet which makes it more secure than a USB drive with air-gapped machine.

Anyway, if a user can't really afford the hardware wallet(while it is not relatively costly) he can definitely opt to use a USB drive in a "Truly air-gapped machine" as an alternative.
Another curiosity that is driving me crazy is the secure element that is put into the specialized chips of hardware wallets. What makes the secure element so secure and makes it stand exceptional from others?


I don't want to act like I am backing argue bot 'bob' - who has probably been arguing on the net for over 20 years now - but I can give you some personal knowledge from my experience. I do not know how similar a linux box [and you say you are using linux on a stick?] is to the newer tablets and phones on android, but despite tablets, and phones, saying the internet not being on according to the device, there was some sort of connection on the compromised device.
Didn't really got your point. What are you trying to say ?

███████████████████████████
███████▄████████████▄██████
████████▄████████▄████████
███▀█████▀▄███▄▀█████▀███
█████▀█▀▄██▀▀▀██▄▀█▀█████
███████▄███████████▄███████
███████████████████████████
███████▀███████████▀███████
████▄██▄▀██▄▄▄██▀▄██▄████
████▄████▄▀███▀▄████▄████
██▄███▀▀█▀██████▀█▀███▄███
██▀█▀████████████████▀█▀███
███████████████████████████
.
.Duelbits.
..........UNLEASH..........
THE ULTIMATE
GAMING EXPERIENCE
DUELBITS
FANTASY
SPORTS
████▄▄█████▄▄
░▄████
███████████▄
▐███
███████████████▄
███
████████████████
███
████████████████▌
███
██████████████████
████████████████▀▀▀
███████████████▌
███████████████▌
████████████████
████████████████
████████████████
████▀▀███████▀▀
.
▬▬
VS
▬▬
████▄▄▄█████▄▄▄
░▄████████████████▄
▐██████████████████▄
████████████████████
████████████████████▌
█████████████████████
███████████████████
███████████████▌
███████████████▌
████████████████
████████████████
████████████████
████▀▀███████▀▀
/// PLAY FOR  FREE  ///
WIN FOR REAL
..PLAY NOW..
1714055700
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714055700

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714055700
Reply with quote  #2

1714055700
Report to moderator
1714055700
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714055700

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714055700
Reply with quote  #2

1714055700
Report to moderator
1714055700
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714055700

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714055700
Reply with quote  #2

1714055700
Report to moderator
The forum strives to allow free discussion of any ideas. All policies are built around this principle. This doesn't mean you can post garbage, though: posts should actually contain ideas, and these ideas should be argued reasonably.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1714055700
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714055700

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714055700
Reply with quote  #2

1714055700
Report to moderator
1714055700
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714055700

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714055700
Reply with quote  #2

1714055700
Report to moderator
1714055700
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714055700

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714055700
Reply with quote  #2

1714055700
Report to moderator
pawanjain (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 2660
Merit: 713


Nothing lasts forever


View Profile
May 04, 2019, 02:46:23 PM
 #22


Another curiosity that is driving me crazy is the secure element that is put into the specialized chips of hardware wallets. What makes the secure element so secure and makes it stand exceptional from others?

We are not going to assist you in compromising a wallet, sorry.
LOL  Grin ,why would I want to compromise a trezor ?
Obviously I am not asking for component used to build the secure element. I am just asking for high level context. For example: the secure element may use a cryptographic hash function that makes the chip secure and makes the hardware wallet sign the transactions with greater safety.

P.S: I am not such a genius that I can compromise wallets by writing scripts/codes. I just tend to grasp knowledge about anything that grabs my interest and bitcoin is one of them.

Maybe you are on a powertrip.
I don't even know what powertrip means  Undecided  Roll Eyes

███████████████████████████
███████▄████████████▄██████
████████▄████████▄████████
███▀█████▀▄███▄▀█████▀███
█████▀█▀▄██▀▀▀██▄▀█▀█████
███████▄███████████▄███████
███████████████████████████
███████▀███████████▀███████
████▄██▄▀██▄▄▄██▀▄██▄████
████▄████▄▀███▀▄████▄████
██▄███▀▀█▀██████▀█▀███▄███
██▀█▀████████████████▀█▀███
███████████████████████████
.
.Duelbits.
..........UNLEASH..........
THE ULTIMATE
GAMING EXPERIENCE
DUELBITS
FANTASY
SPORTS
████▄▄█████▄▄
░▄████
███████████▄
▐███
███████████████▄
███
████████████████
███
████████████████▌
███
██████████████████
████████████████▀▀▀
███████████████▌
███████████████▌
████████████████
████████████████
████████████████
████▀▀███████▀▀
.
▬▬
VS
▬▬
████▄▄▄█████▄▄▄
░▄████████████████▄
▐██████████████████▄
████████████████████
████████████████████▌
█████████████████████
███████████████████
███████████████▌
███████████████▌
████████████████
████████████████
████████████████
████▀▀███████▀▀
/// PLAY FOR  FREE  ///
WIN FOR REAL
..PLAY NOW..
Artemis3
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2016
Merit: 1563


CLEAN non GPL infringing code made in Rust lang


View Profile WWW
May 04, 2019, 03:47:50 PM
Merited by ABCbits (1)
 #23

To "mimic" hardware wallet create bootable  USB drive   and install Kali Linux with  persistent storage. Install on that  persistence   partition  Electrum wallet. Use that USB stick  solely  offline with single purpose   to sign transactions created with watching-only copy of Electrum installed on online computer. Use QR codes to transfer unsigned/signed transactions to/from that USB stick with   cold Electrum wallet. Broadcast signed transaction via Electrum on your online machine.

NOT Kali, this is a VERY UNSAFE distro (runs as root). It is meant for attacks not protection, like a bunch of tools you take to a place for penetration testing on commission, not intended for installs or continued use. For protection you need the likes of Tails OS (also Debian based).

You could harden Kali the same way you would harden Debian, but even Debian is more secure by default, if you create and use an user with low privileges. Please do not bring bad habits from windows into linux, Don't run distros that run as root by default.

██████
███████
███████
████████
BRAIINS OS+|AUTOTUNING
MINING FIRMWARE
|
Increase hashrate on your Bitcoin ASICs,
improve efficiency as much as 25%, and
get 0% pool fees on Braiins Pool
Kakmakr
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3430
Merit: 1957

Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform


View Profile
May 05, 2019, 07:49:45 AM
 #24

To "mimic" hardware wallet create bootable  USB drive   and install Kali Linux with  persistent storage. Install on that  persistence   partition  Electrum wallet. Use that USB stick  solely  offline with single purpose   to sign transactions created with watching-only copy of Electrum installed on online computer. Use QR codes to transfer unsigned/signed transactions to/from that USB stick with   cold Electrum wallet. Broadcast signed transaction via Electrum on your online machine.

NOT Kali, this is a VERY UNSAFE distro (runs as root). It is meant for attacks not protection, like a bunch of tools you take to a place for penetration testing on commission, not intended for installs or continued use. For protection you need the likes of Tails OS (also Debian based).

You could harden Kali the same way you would harden Debian, but even Debian is more secure by default, if you create and use an user with low privileges. Please do not bring bad habits from windows into linux, Don't run distros that run as root by default.


Tails OS comes with Electrum client built into the OS, but you will have to mount a persistent volume for it to work. I do not know how secure a persistent volume is and if that negates the anonymous features of the OS if you do not "clean" boot with it.  Roll Eyes

It will be a bit of a schlep to configure Electrum every time with the Seed, if you do not use a persistent volume with Tails OS, but you will be 100% immune to Malware if you clean boot Tails OS every time you use it.  Wink

Nice thing, it is very small.  Wink

..Stake.com..   ▄████████████████████████████████████▄
   ██ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄            ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ██  ▄████▄
   ██ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ██████████ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ██  ██████
   ██ ██████████ ██      ██ ██████████ ██   ▀██▀
   ██ ██      ██ ██████  ██ ██      ██ ██    ██
   ██ ██████  ██ █████  ███ ██████  ██ ████▄ ██
   ██ █████  ███ ████  ████ █████  ███ ████████
   ██ ████  ████ ██████████ ████  ████ ████▀
   ██ ██████████ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ██████████ ██
   ██            ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀            ██ 
   ▀█████████▀ ▄████████████▄ ▀█████████▀
  ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄███  ██  ██  ███▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
 ██████████████████████████████████████████
▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀█▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█
▄▄█████████▄▄
▄██▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀▀██▄
▄█▀       ▐█▌       ▀█▄
██         ▐█▌         ██
████▄     ▄█████▄     ▄████
████████▄███████████▄████████
███▀    █████████████    ▀███
██       ███████████       ██
▀█▄       █████████       ▄█▀
▀█▄    ▄██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██▄  ▄▄▄█▀
▀███████         ███████▀
▀█████▄       ▄█████▀
▀▀▀███▄▄▄███▀▀▀
..PLAY NOW..
bob123
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624
Merit: 2481



View Profile WWW
May 06, 2019, 06:39:52 AM
Merited by bones261 (2)
 #25

All those were mostly  fishing type of attack that has potential to affect exclusively transactions signed by "hot" Electrum while trx signed by "cold" one remain immune.

No attack is targeting 'signed transactions' in any way.

That's not a surface for an attack. You either target the key storage or the signing process. But not the transaction itself.
If the transaction is signed, there is nothing which can be changed anymore.

The transaction has to be manipulated before signing, which can happen either on an online computer or offline computer (e.g. through compromised USB).



Another curiosity that is driving me crazy is the secure element that is put into the specialized chips of hardware wallets. What makes the secure element so secure and makes it stand exceptional from others?

A hardware wallet contains a hardened microcontroller with less interfaces than a normal microcontroller and a smaller attack surface.
The private keys are stored inside of (and never leave) the secure element.

Upon booting, it verifies the firmware (whether it has been tampered with) and only proceeds if the software running on the nano s is genuine.

The private keys can not be extracted out of the nano s, the only way to 'access' the private keys is to give it a transaction to be signed (which requires a verification on the device itself).
Extracting the private keys itself, is not possible.



NOT Kali, this is a VERY UNSAFE distro (runs as root). It is meant for attacks not protection, like a bunch of tools you take to a place for penetration testing on commission, not intended for installs or continued use.

Kali itself is not unsafe. Upon installation it doesn't create a normal user account, but this can be done with an one-liner.

The reason kali is not suitable for everyday-use is because it requires quite some configuration if you want to use it as your daily OS.



Tails OS comes with Electrum client built into the OS

It does, but it is outdated.
You won't be able to connect to an electrum server with the outdated version.

So, you'll need to download it anyway, which lets you also choose any other distro.

naska21
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1358
Merit: 635


View Profile
May 09, 2019, 08:07:41 AM
 #26

All those were mostly  fishing type of attack that has potential to affect exclusively transactions signed by "hot" Electrum while trx signed by "cold" one remain immune.

No attack is targeting 'signed transactions' in any way.

snip

Perhaps  you misunderstand me. FYI: what I meant they target destination address in transaction to be signed by "hot" Electrum. Sure, signed  transaction is resistant to any attack.
bob123
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624
Merit: 2481



View Profile WWW
May 09, 2019, 08:27:34 AM
 #27

All those were mostly  fishing type of attack that has potential to affect exclusively transactions signed by "hot" Electrum while trx signed by "cold" one remain immune.
No attack is targeting 'signed transactions' in any way.

snip
Perhaps  you misunderstand me. FYI: what I meant they target destination address in transaction to be signed by "hot" Electrum. Sure, signed  transaction is resistant to any attack.


Then your post now, makes no sense.

What i wrote 3 lines below your snip still applies:
The transaction has to be manipulated before signing, which can happen either on an online computer or offline computer (e.g. through compromised USB).

Note, that online computer refers to hot wallet and offline computer to cold wallet, in this case.

Manipulating the transaction (which is to be signed) is completely irrelevant from whether an internet connection is available on the computer or not.

keychainX
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 374
Merit: 53

Telegram @keychainX


View Profile WWW
May 21, 2019, 08:01:18 AM
 #28


Another curiosity that is driving me crazy is the secure element that is put into the specialized chips of hardware wallets. What makes the secure element so secure and makes it stand exceptional from others?

We are not going to assist you in compromising a wallet, sorry.
LOL  Grin ,why would I want to compromise a trezor ?
Obviously I am not asking for component used to build the secure element. I am just asking for high level context. For example: the secure element may use a cryptographic hash function that makes the chip secure and makes the hardware wallet sign the transactions with greater safety.

P.S: I am not such a genius that I can compromise wallets by writing scripts/codes. I just tend to grasp knowledge about anything that grabs my interest and bitcoin is one of them.

Maybe you are on a powertrip.
I don't even know what powertrip means  Undecided  Roll Eyes

Then read
https://www.ledger.com/2019/03/11/our-shared-security-responsibly-disclosing-competitor-vulnerabilities/

/KX

Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!