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Author Topic: The invite and account section should be locked for newbies  (Read 530 times)
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May 12, 2019, 10:52:45 AM
Merited by redsn0w (1)
 #1

Just my 2 cents about this.

99% of the posts here (and threads) are from newbies for selling stolen/hacked accounts. (bet 365 Neteller skill PayPal, whatever)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=234.0

Why don't we limit this illegal spam restricting the subsection only for Jr +?


I've tried to report posts and tag users but is useless they keeping coming with new accounts to create more spam

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May 12, 2019, 10:58:10 AM
 #2

Just my 2 cents about this.

I see your 2-cents and I raise you 2-cents! That section is impossible to navigate. Finding a legitimate seller is nearly impossible and almost every thread in that section is breaking the rules. I don't know if Jr + would actually solve the problem, but it would be a step in the right direction. Limiting which users can access which sections further is disheartening, but at a certain point it is just necessary.

I used to thoroughly enjoy that section, for all of the cool accounts/invites that were offered; these days it's just hacked forum accounts, paypals, etc.
There's been an update to the rules of that section
Quote
Accounts on sites that require KYC such as bank accounts, PayPal, etc. are assumed to be hacked unless you explain why they're not hacked.

With any luck that will be the precursor to additional moderation within that section, breathe some life back into it.
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May 12, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
 #3

Mixed feelings about this.

Yes, Newbies post a lot of spam offers, but if you start restricting them, you're also going to severely  limit users who come to this forum purely to actually sell some legitimate stuff for Bitcoin, (and thus don't have a JR member+ account).
+ The red tagged Jr+ members will just keep bumping their offers. I don't see them stopping anytime soon. eg https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5128128.0

Perhaps prevent <Jr members from bumping, or people with <-2 trust score (although that's also open to abuse obviously...)

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May 12, 2019, 11:05:13 AM
 #4

I will throw my two into the pot..
I noticed that we had a spate of bans for spam accounts recently this should help some what with the amount if spam being posted.

I think the market place should be restricted a rank higher that noob ranking this would help in more ways that one.

1. Users might think twice about posting a scam listing if they are in danger of losing a higher ranked account.
2. Being unable to just create a "throw" away account just to post advert without spending the time on the forum to build up reputation will dampen the scammers down a fair bit.
3. It's almost impossible to find good sellers on the forum anymore dew to the sheer volume of posting there.

Agreed there should be some kind of rank before being allowed to sell on the forum this will help protect members somewhat and possibly bring the rate of posting down in that section.

DELTATRADER Coming Soon!!!!
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May 12, 2019, 11:05:45 AM
Merited by The Pharmacist (2)
 #5

you're also severely going to limit users who come to this forum purely to actually sell some legitimate stuff for Bitcoin

I sincerely wonder what percentage of newbies showing up to the forum are actually bringing something legitimate and of value to the Accounts & Invites section. That kind of data would make decisions like this a lot more practical to make; we would be able to somewhat predict the affect this would have on new-arrivals based on how many of them are honestly contributing members of that section.
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May 12, 2019, 07:45:51 PM
 #6

If this is done newbies would feel a unwanted in the forum even though some are guilty of the offence I don't think it's only newbies that makes that board unhealthy.
Still also there is a report button that can come in handy when you see a post that is out of place
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May 12, 2019, 07:55:38 PM
 #7

Reporting such as topic isn't going to help prevent scams or spams. I am strongly agree with OP idea. It might help prevent spam and scam by nebiwe account. After getting tag they are coming with new accounts. So hide that section would help forum for spams and scams. It's true most of account sells thread created by newbie account.

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May 12, 2019, 08:23:14 PM
 #8

I think the existing rules should be enforced in the invites section. I think this will solve most of the problems described in the OP, but we can revisit a few weeks or a month after the rules start to be actually enforced.
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May 12, 2019, 08:57:21 PM
 #9

Account buy-sell issues has been a real concern for our community and current actions against this kind of activators is enough strict IMO. I hope if we continue our job strictly to stop them then obviously it will discourage them from doing this.

After observing the final result of account buy-sell issues upcoming users will be  careful enough which will keeo tgem far from it too. So changing rules isn't going to be a proper solution where its better to let newbies know that account sell or buy is strictly prohibited here.

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May 12, 2019, 09:02:40 PM
 #10

That kind of data would make decisions like this a lot more practical to make; we would be able to somewhat predict the affect this would have on new-arrivals based on how many of them are honestly contributing members of that section.
Couldn't have said it better myself.  I've heard that argument a lot, that restricting scamming newbies from doing X will inhibit legitimate newbies from doing X.  And I have to say just from personal observation that a huge number of new members who try to do deals here are scammy as hell.  If they get called out for trying to scam, they just ditch their account and create a new one to start over with.

Unless we actually have data on this, I'd be in favor of restricting newbies from starting new threads in Invites & Accounts, and a bunch of other restrictions as well.  Yes, it might inconvenience an honest newcomer from selling an account, but I think more good would come from it than harm.  I think honest newbies are the exception rather than the rule.

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May 12, 2019, 09:12:54 PM
 #11

It doesn't really matter IMO if we limit the restrictions to jr member+ or not. We would just see more abuse of merits from users ranking up newbie accounts or users buying copper member status.

Only real thing to do is not allow sales of accounts.

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May 12, 2019, 10:26:29 PM
 #12

Today you came up with an idea for invites & account section mess.
Previously someone else came up with ideas for digital goods section mess. Thread!
Before that, I came up with an idea to restrict newbies in major boards to keep it safe from spam & scam. Thread!

There is no doubt that there is a need for cleaning the mess and to do something now to prevent future messes after the clean up.

They just keep coming back with new accounts after they get tagged in their previous account. As an example, account sellers, they might have created 1000s of account.

It is more likely that we haven't proposed any solid idea about the issue yet, but we should all give some thoughts on it to find a solid solution.

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May 12, 2019, 10:42:14 PM
 #13

It doesn't really matter IMO if we limit the restrictions to jr member+ or not. We would just see more abuse of merits from users ranking up newbie accounts or users buying copper member status.

Only real thing to do is not allow sales of accounts.

Soon or later they will end their airdropped merit if mods will start to ban those Jr+. Are those Jr+ bannable for selling stolen/hacked (kyc) account? No Idea.

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May 12, 2019, 11:00:06 PM
 #14

Are those Jr+ bannable for selling stolen/hacked (kyc) account? No Idea.
Selling accounts are only discouraged, not lead to bans, with current forum rules. Demotions of Junior Member which did not received a single merit in September of 2018 is a good one to wipe out shitty Junior Members. That, in turn, led to massive bans of re-promoted Junior Members (from demoted ones) due to their shady things discovered. I don't think bans on accounts that started bitcointalk.org's account sellings will be implemented (for all ranks, not only Junior Member rank - but higher ranks don't stupid enough to starts threads for account sellings), because it is somehow uncontrollable. Sellers can easily do it in others channels, in Discord, Telegram, etc.

Restricting rights to create threads in the Invite & account section is more appropriately, in my opinion.

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May 12, 2019, 11:02:24 PM
 #15

Selling accounts are only discouraged,

I think that is only about for this forum's accounts but I can be wrong. This thread is about account sold with passport/card ID/Drive card etc.

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May 13, 2019, 12:04:39 PM
 #16

Many platforms ask for some personal files so maybe this forum is one of the trusted places to sell/buy using Bitcoin.
Set Limiting base on ranks will be negative in the long term.

Just as the problem of Spam paid posts *through the merit system has been solved,* devising a better market mechanism rather than trust system will be much better than imposing rank restrictions.

Starting with a welcome message, banning self-moderated topics, locked topics, imposing more restrictions to ensure the legality of the account will be important steps.

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May 13, 2019, 08:00:52 PM
 #17

I think I found the answer, all of them should be banned.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1785577.0

Quote
You are only allowed to sell accounts/invites that you legally obtained yourself or through legitimate trades. If you did anything illegal in order to obtain an item, then you can't trade it on bitcointalk.org. Anyone found breaking this rule will be banned.

Quote
Accounts on sites that require KYC such as bank accounts, PayPal, etc. are assumed to be hacked unless you explain why they're not hacked.


So if mods starts to ban them, and we will get the newbie restriction that section will be most likely fixed.

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May 13, 2019, 08:08:07 PM
 #18

I don't like blanket-restricting newbies from doing things. Report the posts selling KYC accounts without an explanation as to why they're not hacked -- newbies doing this should be nuked on sight. Also report excessive bumping or topics-per-user. If reports aren't handled well, I'll add another moderator (probably based largely on report stats).

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May 13, 2019, 09:36:54 PM
 #19

I don't like blanket-restricting newbies from doing things. Report the posts selling KYC accounts without an explanation as to why they're not hacked -- newbies doing this should be nuked on sight. Also report excessive bumping or topics-per-user. If reports aren't handled well, I'll add another moderator (probably based largely on report stats).
Please see this thread.

There is a list of ~15 threads without an explanation of how they are not hacked. Most appear to be unbanned as of a week ago. When I last checked.

Thanks.
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May 13, 2019, 10:05:55 PM
 #20

!

Please see this post.

Report the posts
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May 14, 2019, 05:49:35 AM
 #21

I was thinking posting about it would have the same effect as "reporting the posts". I went to report the posts in my thread and most of them are already deleted, and I reported the rest.

I also took some hours to go through 5 pages (goes back about 2.5 days) of the invites section to check for rule violations. I have exactly 100 unhanded reports, and I started with one or two I believe. Most violations were for not deleting old bumps, and there were a lot of KYC verified accounts for sale without an explanation as to how they are not hacked. There was also a small number of excessive bumping and selling similar items in multiple threads. Only one post in each thread was reported, so the majority of threads I looked at had some kind of rule violation.

Hopefully this will lead to the invites section being more friendly and more interesting.
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May 14, 2019, 09:45:53 AM
 #22

I've reported around 30 posts bumps/sellers to see how it will be handled, so far I noticed the bumps are handled very fast while the account selling thing it requires more time (this is pretty logical btw).

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May 14, 2019, 11:58:34 AM
Merited by coinlocket$ (1)
 #23

Some accounts I don't ban because I can't ban them if they aren't newbies so I wait until a Global Moderator acts on the report, with some if the seller can provide the documents used for verification I assume they either belong to them, or they found someone desperate enough who's willing to provide document scans or selfies for a small fee. If they're selling hacked accounts then I assume the accounts even if verified would come without the assorted documents photos/scans. I'm sending a PM to theymos anyway for a clarification.

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May 14, 2019, 12:02:28 PM
 #24

Yeah it's hard call I know, I've done the reports to test out the situation, most of those users (don't remember what I've reported) uses docs for different countries so most likely they can't sell their own documents.

Also most of them often talks about accounts.

(sorry if I spammed you with the report button  Grin )

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May 14, 2019, 12:23:43 PM
 #25

I thought that another rule of our marketplace was that you are not allowed to buy/sell anything that is illegal in either the buyer's country or the seller's country at the time of the transaction.
Using the documents, identity, social security, bank information or address information of another individual is identity theft, or at least fraud in most jurisdictions. At the very least, it is against the rules of the sites, and violating the terms of agreement with a legally sanctioned business is also against the law and can result in "damages".

I believe the rule was amended so that "assuming" they are legitimately obtained accounts should no longer be the protocol. I don't think the selling of government issued documents, like identification, should be allowed.
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May 14, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
 #26

Breaking a website's Terms of Service does not have to imply breaking the law.

I believe the rule was amended so that "assuming" they are legitimately obtained accounts should no longer be the protocol. I don't think the selling of government issued documents, like identification, should be allowed.

And it generally isn't, many accounts were banned for offering passports or similar stuff.

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May 14, 2019, 12:56:29 PM
 #27

Breaking a website's Terms of Service does not have to imply breaking the law.

I understand that, which is why I'm not advocating for people to be banned for bypassing profanity filters on gambling chat-rooms.

Quote
many accounts were banned for offering passports or similar stuff.

Then how is it any different to sell Social Security Numbers, Bank account details, government issued IDs, etc.?

I'm just confused how you can simultaneously say that people are banned for selling these documents, but then allow the account sales that include these documents.

with some if the seller can provide the documents used for verification I assume they either belong to them, or they found someone desperate enough who's willing to provide document scans or selfies for a small fee.
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May 14, 2019, 01:20:12 PM
 #28

quote

I go on a case-by-case basis, some sellers are plain fraudsters or carders and they should be banned, others may be satisfying a legitimate market demand, e.g. to people who get blocked by some bookie when they start winning too often. Of course if the seller is selling hacked accounts, or used someone's identity to verify these accounts without their consent, that's banworthy too.

A VBA (I imagine from some free pre-paid card acquired with no KYC) isn't also the same thing as a normal bank account.

And it seems even older Newbie accounts can't be banned by ordinary mods (or someone whitelisted them, or they have a Copper membership not showing), so that might also explain why it takes a while for them to get banned.

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May 14, 2019, 08:56:47 PM
Last edit: May 14, 2019, 09:59:31 PM by coinlocket$
 #29

Quick recap

I've reported around 200 messages and I tested what I need to know so I've reported all kind of posts

90% of them are handled fast (bumps) 3 of them are marked as bad, 2 of them I can agree with it they are "clever bumps" but this one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3169533.msg47203080#msg47203080 this one IMO should be considered a bump? (the poster has no removed the old post and this is a bump).

The newbie nuking take a lot more of time like https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5107934.msg49659419#msg49659419

he says Accounts, so his idea is to sell more than 1 account, and of course, he can have only 1 account with his data.

Same as https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5127700.msg50441171#msg50441171 "Accounts"

Just my 2 cents.


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May 14, 2019, 09:10:21 PM
 #30

Some accounts I don't ban because I can't ban them if they aren't newbies so I wait until a Global Moderator acts on the report, with some if the seller can provide the documents used for verification I assume they either belong to them, or they found someone desperate enough who's willing to provide document scans or selfies for a small fee. If they're selling hacked accounts then I assume the accounts even if verified would come without the assorted documents photos/scans. I'm sending a PM to theymos anyway for a clarification.
I don’t think this is enough to conclude they are not hacked.

I imagine some business handle KYC via email and some businesses have very poor information security practices. If the email account or business is hacked, a seller would have access to these documents.

The person could also be providing faked/forged documents.
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May 16, 2019, 09:43:00 AM
 #31

Update: After under 2 days most of the reports (99% on a sample size of 200) are handled.

Some posts like this one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5137385.msg50887248#msg50887248 stay unhandled.

While a moderator can't ban Jr+, Can he at least delete these kinds of threads?

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May 16, 2019, 03:24:34 PM
 #32

Just my 2 cents about this.

I see your 2-cents and I raise you 2-cents! That section is impossible to navigate. Finding a legitimate seller is nearly impossible and almost every thread in that section is breaking the rules. I don't know if Jr + would actually solve the problem, but it would be a step in the right direction. Limiting which users can access which sections further is disheartening, but at a certain point it is just necessary.

I used to thoroughly enjoy that section, for all of the cool accounts/invites that were offered; these days it's just hacked forum accounts, paypals, etc.
There's been an update to the rules of that section
Quote
Accounts on sites that require KYC such as bank accounts, PayPal, etc. are assumed to be hacked unless you explain why they're not hacked.

With any luck that will be the precursor to additional moderation within that section, breathe some life back into it.
Make it a dollar. This guy has a good solution from.the problem and barely support to.it. Imagine that there will be no newbie selling fake accounts or.even scamming users that has the interest in buying high rank accounts. Probably there will be no scamming will going to happe. or it will reduce to minimal.

Good thing that OP has given his/her two cents. Nice approach of OP in solving the problem but the thing is that it needs to go for an approval for the admin before they will start doing their job and for the update.

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