Ready to sue the miners?

[jseverson]

We don't need fees. If the miners aren't getting enough from the coin they mine, they can sit on it, and supply and demand should raise the price. At least until the people stop trying to make trades.

This should work in theory, but in this scenario you're basically expecting Bitcoin to continue to keep grow indefinitely to be able to offset the continuously halving block rewards. Once that stops being true, we risk hashrate dropping and compromising the network's security.

I would really prefer for fees to be negligible or even zero, but that poses problems to the economics behind the system.

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[1Referee]

In that sense you can just as easily sue wallet providers who are shit at estimating the right fees for their users. Or blame speculators who overpay by 100-200% even when the fees are much lower. Sue BitPay, Blockchain, etc for not upgrading to Segwit which unnecessarily makes people using their services and directly the rest pay higher fees.

High fees shows that Bitcoin's economic model works. Fees increase the way they are meant to increase. Why make a problem out of something that was set in stone on day 1?

[Ranly123]

Last time Bitcoin went wild was near the end of 2017. She went to about $20,000 a bitcoin.

Now we see that Bitcoin is going wild again. Why did Bitcoin fall the first time, from $20,000 at the end of 2017, to $3,500 by the end of 2018?

Basically because of miner's fees. Transacting in Bitcoin wasn't profitable, because miners got together and raised their fees so high that it wasn't worth trading Bitcoin.

So, it was the miners' fault that Bitcoin fell. Otherwise it would be at a million by now. So, are we ready to sue the miners if they increase their fees again?

Let's hear it. Find the miners and sue the pants off them if they raise their fees this time around. Who is with me on this line of thinking? What should our strategy be?

Well that would be another reason why Bitcoin fall to $3k. Basically miners mine the coins and then when it was about to harvest their labor, they sell and that's the start of price falling. I don't think we can do much about that situation and I suggest to just ride the tide then do the right decision when it comes to selling and buying bitcoins.

[waitforme]

Transaction fees not increased, it remains at 0.0005. But Bitcoin prices have increased, so 0.0005 is a high fee level? It has maintained this cost for many years. Please accept because this is a fixed fee and the price of Bitcoin increases so fast that its value increases. Bitcoin is about to reach $ 13k, and many people have become rich, but you are here for stupid questions. 

[slaman29]

Miners did not raise the fee. How can they? They just mine. The ones raising the fees are just ourselves. People still overpay in fees every day I can't believe it. If you're talking about what Bitmain did, however, okay there is that. but they didn't raise fees, they basically just spammed the network with their own txs so that other people couldn't get their txs into blocks.

[Jet Cash]

I think we should sue the government - they are making people buy electric cars, and wasting good electricity that could be used to keep down mining costs.

[franky1]

also its not the pools that are to blame for the fee's... pools dont write code that becomes bitcoins protocol, they didnt make the rules or make the lack of rules. it was the bitcoin core devs that decided on the uncontrolled wild west auction market of fee's rather than a structured fee formulae

You are one of the most trusted people in the forum on these issues. So you think the decisions are right now? Would it be better if miners could take the initiative? And does the difference between today's Bitcoin coding and Satoshi's original coding scare you too?

1. i dont want to be one of the most trusted people. i just want to counter the propaganda so that people can think independently and trust their own opinions/do their own research by having a valid counter argument to the lame stuff some spew out

2. comparing bitcoins ethos/purpose of 2009 to bitcoins ethos/purpose of 2019 things have changed dramatically. the devs went full on wild west with fee management rather than act like devs and code something. purely to then use the wild west as a reason to then say bitcoin is failing so they could promote their VC invested other networks for commercial gain.

3. pools are limited to what they can actually do. too much propaganda is placed on pools in regards to how deadly a 51% attack would be, however it wouldnt change rules, it would just change what transactions were confirmed vs unconfirmed in a chain re-org.

4. that said pools could decide to not include certain transactions as a boycott such as
avoid the discounted segwit transactions(false discount as its actually legacy=4x not segwit=/4)
avoid transactions that have less than 6 confirms
avoid transactions over $2
and so on.
the only problem is that there are over 20 pools. so while one pool might implement an initiative to try to change users fee habits. it would only affect 5-15% of blocks depending on how popular the pool is at mining

[franky1]

Miners did not raise the fee. How can they? They just mine. The ones raising the fees are just ourselves. People still overpay in fees every day I can't believe it. If you're talking about what Bitmain did, however, okay there is that. but they didn't raise fees, they basically just spammed the network with their own txs so that other people couldn't get their txs into blocks.

actually bitmain are known as the pool that prefers to 'empty block'.
its other pools that accept transactions from mixers that are 'spammy' and if you do some research you will see a few core devs that are highly motivated and involved in the mixer industry

[fiulpro]

What if one day you decide to buy a mining machine ,
What if one day you are also doing the same ?

It is not a matter of fact that they take very high amount of fee , infact what they take is generally what is universally taken all over the world.

Mining is hella expensive when it comes in form of the electricity bill that you have to pay , therefore the only thing I can think of is to sue them for all the carbon footprint that they have generated till now.

Even right now the fee is the same then why is the price climbing ?
It's about the market , not the fee , people who have to use it will use it regardless.

[bvyvjdidn]

People have always loved easy money. And when you can get the benefit without losing your money, then this suits many people and then we hear another story about the miner and the fraudster. I understand that the old mining systems need to be rebuilt in order not to harm the environment, but not everyone supports this position.

[jushfln]

I honestly do not understand people who are doing everything to achieve the receipt of funds through mining. When the blockchain says our system is decentralized, you expect it to be that the system is secure, because there is no single server that can be hacked. But now they even learned how to embed mining processes in other people's computers. Where does the world go? Why not use legitimate income?

Making money legally for some reason in the crypto world is not such a popular occupation. Although there are many possibilities. For example, many are now building their careers around content creation. And when you have excellent experience in the field of crypto investments, then taklimakan platform will encourage such people to share their experience. After all, the blockchain technology and cryptocurrency can have a good future. And the more people learn how to use crypto, the faster you can bring the world of the future closer from our fantasies.

[borrorofju]

People have always loved easy money. And when you can get the benefit without losing your money, then this suits many people and then we hear another story about the miner and the fraudster. I understand that the old mining systems need to be rebuilt in order not to harm the environment, but not everyone supports this position.

Smoking is also harmful, but it attracts many people. So is mining. It is necessary to look for easier ways for mining, so as not to harm the environment and do not anger the government. I think mobile miners have big chances to become a trend.

[juliatorba]

People have always loved easy money. And when you can get the benefit without losing your money, then this suits many people and then we hear another story about the miner and the fraudster. I understand that the old mining systems need to be rebuilt in order not to harm the environment, but not everyone supports this position.

Smoking is also harmful, but it attracts many people. So is mining. It is necessary to look for easier ways for mining, so as not to harm the environment and do not anger the government. I think mobile miners have big chances to become a trend.

That Iran, then China prohibit mining. But it does not stop anyone. Cryptocurrencies offer more equal opportunities for people from different countries to conduct transactions. But in general, it is too early to consider cryptocurrency as an investment. It is necessary to carry out a careful selection of the market and really come up with ways to regulate blockchain projects.

[Farul]

Isn't The One Who Drive Up The fee Is The Bitcoin User Itself?>
If People Wait For Their Transaction Instead Of Increasing Their Fee, Then The Transaction Fee Wouldn't Increasing Significantly
Sadly, We Human Are Selfish, We Want Our Transaction To Be Confirmed ASAP. So, We Increase Our Transaction Fee. Which Lead To Increase On Transaction Fee On The Network.

Mixer industry you say? I haven't used a mixer before but my assumption would be mixing would lead to preferring blocks filled with transactions to be mined vs empty ones as the coins and keep moving around quicker.

Franky1 Point Is Pretty Valid, Except For The Last One (Core-Dev Conspiracy).
1. Bitmain Clarification : https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5xfw0c/sorry_we_will_continue_mining_empty_blocks_this/
It Maybe Mainly Because They're One Of The Main BCH Supporter,(To Support Their Agenda) And Because They're A Jerk.

2. Even if There Is No Mixer, And If Miner Would Prioritize To Mine Full Block, The Block Will Always Full.
Didn't You Realize That There Are A Lot Of Transaction Lining Up To Be Confirmed?
And Since People Who Use Mixer Is "Rich" They Willing To Pay More Fee To Get Their Transaction Get Confirmed Faster. Which Lead To Increasing Transaction Fee.

[franky1]

I think Franky is about open development and is trying to somewhat educate the general forum about the current development team and process and introduce more development to the coin in general. Honestly I don't know if it's a great idea, too many developers means conflicting ideas and stalemates leading to stagnation instead of a concise goal and development path.

so winter 2015 core team announced segwit as a promotion of fee discounts of upto 4x
fee's at the time were only a few pennies and people were getting angry when fee's went up to $0.20
...
4 years later.. 2019. core still are dictating the rules and yet the community are still waiting for a fee fix...
yea... sticking to one team that had 4 years really worked(sarcasm)

if you knew how consensus worked in its truest form(not cores b*starded version) by learning about the byzantine generals theory. you would realise that having multiple teams where they could all propose their own idea's and then gradually compromise down to a single idea everyone agree's on. (such as an earlier 2015 compromise that occurred before core stepped back and went in their own roadmap direction).
under a true consensus mechanism of community rather than dictator 'reference' clients. the community could move forward with new innovations faster than the 4 year stagnation without fix thus far.

[DaCryptoRaccoon]

Sucker post? Satoshi made Bitcoin to be decentralized. The miners are centralizing it with their fees.

There's always going to be people who lose in an investment. You have a bunch of miner hawks perched all around the ignorant masses, just waiting for them to get into Bitcoin so that they can swoop down and take their money from them.

That isn't decentralized.

If it isn't decentralized, advertise what it is. Why mess with the lives of a bunch of investors who are growing your Bitcoin business for you?



Get out of mining if you fear retaliation from both sides... big government for crashing fiat and changing who the wealthy are... getting sued by a bunch of people who you just screwed out of their life savings when they invested in your pet project, Bitcoin. The investors aren't going to put up with it this time.

what about pools?  do they not have a lot to answer for..
It's not miner centralization that's the issue, it's pools.

Can you imagine how the chart would look is there were a easy way to deploy a pool and run it.   Anyone even seeking this kind of startup info won't find anything useful that works out of the box.
The only reason your thinking it's miners that are centralizing is because there is not that many pools to choose from so miners inevitably plump for the largest pool.

If there were 200+ bitcoin pools the network would no doubt look much different that is does now considering half of the pool owners all scratch each others backs is another issue.

Deal with pool's issue and things might improve.

[naufals4]

Last time Bitcoin went wild was near the end of 2017. She went to about $20,000 a bitcoin.

Now we see that Bitcoin is going wild again. Why did Bitcoin fall the first time, from $20,000 at the end of 2017, to $3,500 by the end of 2018?

Basically because of miner's fees. Transacting in Bitcoin wasn't profitable, because miners got together and raised their fees so high that it wasn't worth trading Bitcoin.

So, it was the miners' fault that Bitcoin fell. Otherwise it would be at a million by now. So, are we ready to sue the miners if they increase their fees again?

Let's hear it. Find the miners and sue the pants off them if they raise their fees this time around. Who is with me on this line of thinking? What should our strategy be?

I think the fall in the price of bitcoin is not just because of the miner. in my opinion i think the correction of bitcoin happened because the price of bitcoin at that time was too high just look at it in a few months there was a significant increase. so that after all time high and can't rise again there will be a correction.

[squatter]

We don't need fees. If the miners aren't getting enough from the coin they mine, they can sit on it, and supply and demand should raise the price.

You're only considering newly mined coins, not the 17+ million other bitcoins in circulation. With each passing day, miners comprise a smaller and smaller portion of the total supply. Since they don't dictate the supply, the market doesn't move to their whims.

In your vision, what do you expect to happen when block rewards approach zero?