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Author Topic: Reversability of USD Payments  (Read 2507 times)
EuSouBitcoin
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November 10, 2011, 07:40:48 PM
 #1

There is a lot of information floating around about what types of USD payments are reversible and which are not. We know that BTC and in person cash USD payments are not reversible. Can any other USD payments also be considered irreversible and if so after how much time has passed? For example, payments via
Dwolla
Paxum
Liberty Reserve
Dometic Bank Wire
International Bank Wire
ACH transfers
PayPal
OKPAY
BitInstant
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SgtSpike
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November 10, 2011, 08:35:43 PM
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This would be a very good thing to get summarized in one location.

Paypal passes credit card chargebacks through to the seller.  If the buyer disputes a Paypal payment via a credit card chargeback, then Paypal freezes those funds in the seller's account.  A person can charge back any time within 60 days of receiving their credit card statement, which is generally around 10 days after the end of the billing cycle.  But, also assume that the credit card agency doesn't necessarily notify Paypal of the dispute immediately - they have up to 30 days just to acknowledge they received the chargeback request, and 60 days to comply with it.  Assuming the purchased on credit card was made at the start of the billing cycle, then you have a 160-170 day window of time before you can be certain that you won't be charged back via paypal.
Stephen Gornick
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November 11, 2011, 11:37:17 AM
 #3

Some of the info you seek is here:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Payment_methods

Feel free to update it with more complete information or additional columns.

SgtSpike
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November 11, 2011, 05:17:24 PM
 #4

Some of the info you seek is here:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Payment_methods

Feel free to update it with more complete information or additional columns.
That table should be updated with how many days it takes before a transaction can be considered "100% safe".

Anyone want to tackle it?
phantomcircuit
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November 15, 2011, 04:31:22 AM
 #5

There is a lot of information floating around about what types of USD payments are reversible and which are not. We know that BTC and in person cash USD payments are not reversible. Can any other USD payments also be considered irreversible and if so after how much time has passed? For example, payments via
Dwolla
Paxum
Liberty Reserve
Dometic Bank Wire
International Bank Wire
ACH transfers
PayPal
OKPAY
BitInstant

Dwolla - can be reversed if the funding source is reversed, to reverse an ACH debit all that is required is a signed affidavit stating the account holder did not authorize dwolla to debit their account
Paxum - can be reversed the same way dwolla is, however this is much less likely as they require extensive id and a signed authorization to debit your account via ACH
Liberty Reserve - they claim to never chargeback ever and to my knowledge this claim has held true
Domestic Bank Wire - good as cash, however if you get a lot of complaints of fraud your bank will probably close your account
International bank Wire - same as domestic bank wires
ACH transfers - same as dwolla although with the advantage that you at least have more information than just a dwolla id and email
PayPal - multiple funding sources which are trivially charged back, ACH/credit card/debit card, paypal has explicitly stated in the past that all bitcoin transactions will be reversed (or so it's been reported to me)
OKPAY - I have no idea
BitInstant - I believe part of their fee structure is accepting the burden of chargebacks, but I'd ask them first
zer0
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November 19, 2011, 06:04:56 AM
 #6

In addition to chargebacks/reverses, some of those methods are easy to fraud

ACH - simple to fraud. Buy bank logins on any carding forum, send somebody here an ACH and get bitcoins. Run away with money, 24-48hrs later the bank reverses transaction

Intl wires - harder to fraud, if somebody does buy a stolen EU bank account and wire you money odds are it will be caught before you receive it, but could happen. Intermediate banks fleece your wire for bullshit middleman funds. Your bank probably charges $50 to receive it, avoid.

Online bill payments and other EFTs - easy to fraud/basically worthless.

Dwolla - simple to fraud. They are starting to sell stolen Dwolla accounts now

Paxum - same as the above

LR - no chance of fraud. LR basically tells you to go fuck yourself if you complain to them money is missing from somebody else using your account. Lol. Just don't activate the API

OKpay - doesn't allow chargebacks. Haven't seen anybody selling stolen Okpay accounts

Paypal - hot garbage. unless you use disposable ATM cards to cashout

Liqpay - worthless unless you live in CIS/Russia they will seize your trading account

Accepting cash deposit - fraud risk. LR exchangers demand you keep a receipt and write on it 'NOT FOR AUCTIONS' then scan it and send it to them before they release you funds. Prevents Nigerians stealing ebay accounts, and conning old people into cash depositing 1,000 dollars which they then run away with in untraceable currency. Grandma complains to the bank, they reverse the transaction.

Signing up to trustcash.com and selling through cash deposits in 10,000 different US locations - no chargebacks, no fraud risk.

Signing up to eCoin.cc and transfering money to each other (free) no chargebacks. Withdraw to ATM card. To load an ecoin.cc account you just buy in through an exchanger like technocashier.com to avoid minimum deposit fees

Accepting a prepaid WMZ pin code card (from www.buywmz.com somebody can buy with Visa/MC) no chargebacks. Can exchange these to anything with any Russian exchanger, or wmbroker.ca just don't sit on them, exchange them within 48hrs.

Buying a technocash gfx account and trading with each other for $0 fees - no chargebacks unless fraud. Can sell bitcoins and cash out with technocash for free, then trade it with somebody else for 1% fee into anything

Global Digital pay - scam, don't ever use

Euro Gold Cash - scam

Webmoney WMZ - don't use unless you're Russian/CIS country or just deal in PPD card codes.

CosmicPay - no chargebacks/fraud

SolidTrust pay - will do a chargeback if you use their Visa/MC merchant service to get funds otherwise no

Moneypak - you must have scanned copies of the receipts used to buy the moneypaks because they will eventually seize your account and demand them. Don't ever use, they rat to IRS/feds

Western Union - they rat to feds if continually receiving transfers. Anybody receiving over a certain amount or a total number of transactions before being flagged will get turned over to feds for review

Moneygram - even worse than WU

Interac EFT/email transfer (canada) - unreliable payment method, most online merchants stopped taking it because of fraud

Ukash/PaySafeCards - depends on the pin #'er you get (first couple of pin digits denotes currency, geographical location it was purchased, ect). USD paysafecards can't be used for gambling so are worth less on the trading market. You could spend 50% fees trying to cash it out. Ukash and PSC codes often expire quickly, cash immediately. Often online exchangers look for a specific pin# and then advertise that cheap rate, you go to exchange with them and they don't want your restricted GBP Ukash voucher.

Paynearme voucher bought in 711 - too expensive for anybody but huge corporate merchants to accept.

Accepting a debit/ATM card in the mail and having the buyer of bitcoins load it for you - great success, tho you don't want to stand in front of an ATM loading in multiple cards and withdrawing. Instant fraud flag. If cops are around they might arrest you thinking they're stolen cards, or a bank may flag the cards and review you on camera and cancel them. Switch up ATMs

Perfect Money - no chargebacks, but they are floated by HYIP scams and could disappear one day

C-Gold - does every transaction manually to eliminate fraud. Good system but fees

Pecunix - probably most anonymous system next to cryptocoins, and oldest.
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