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Author Topic: Poloniex's taking money from its customers to cover its loss  (Read 1509 times)
countryfree
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June 06, 2019, 11:43:14 PM
Last edit: June 07, 2019, 12:30:24 AM by countryfree
Merited by suchmoon (4), LoyceV (1)
 #1

https://medium.com/circle-trader/overview-of-btc-margin-lending-pool-losses-a2f0905aaa56

Scary. I used to think lending money on Poloniex or Biftinex was safe. Not anymore.

Quote
Today, we recognized the generalized loss across lenders in the BTC margin lending pool. As a result, the principal of all active BTC loans as of 14:00 UTC today has been reduced by 16.202%.

So, if you were lending money on Poloniex, you've lost 16.202% of it... Man, that hurts!

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 07, 2019, 12:31:37 AM
 #2

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Crypto exchange Poloniex revealed in a post Thursday that lenders in its bitcoin margin lending pool suffered a loss of 1800 BTC — roughly $13.5 million at current market prices — due to a flash crash in the Clams (CLAM) market on May 26.

what a travesty. they shouldn't allow leverage on such illiquid markets. bitcoin and the larger altcoins are one thing, but with low volume altcoins like this---especially on a low volume exchange like poloniex---it's a disaster waiting to happen.

there's no way they're gonna claw back all those coins from borrowers. i don't even think they legally can. why would borrowers deposit extra money to cover losses above and beyond what their positions entailed?

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June 07, 2019, 01:17:18 AM
 #3

I'd say that both lenders and Polo didn't properly analyse the risk.

On Polo's half, it should have been obvious not to provide leverage on such an illiquid and clearly manipulated market as CLAM. This isn't even the first time Clam has done this. There was a nearly identical crash back in October 2017.

Lenders, for their part, should have known better and factored in counter-party risk. Losses have been socialised before on exchanges, such as at OKCoin and Finex. Polo definitely isn't immune.
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June 07, 2019, 02:49:39 AM
 #4

I see Poloniex as fully responsible. I blame their software.

We live in an age of superfast trading by bots, and there's a protection built-in with margin trading operations. As soon as the loss reaches the sum of money traded to begin with, the software should have terminated the trade in a second. It should be instant. Poloniex's blaming the lack of liquidity in the Clam market, that is a problem they should have been aware of, and lenders aren't responsible for it.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 07, 2019, 03:15:11 AM
 #5

We’re pursuing the defaulted borrowers to get them to repay the BTC they owe to lenders.

What exactly does that mean? Pursuing them, legally? Poloniex's system shouldn't have allowed them to leverage positions that couldn't be liquidated. We've seen socialized losses before -- that's not a surprise to me. But they make it sound like they're coming after the defaulted borrowers. It wasn't their fault.

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June 07, 2019, 03:58:56 AM
Merited by figmentofmyass (1)
 #6

I see Poloniex as fully responsible. I blame their software.

We live in an age of superfast trading by bots, and there's a protection built-in with margin trading operations. As soon as the loss reaches the sum of money traded to begin with, the software should have terminated the trade in a second. It should be instant.

The speed of their software is not the problem. The problem is one of imbalance. They allowed large asymmetric positions which dwarfed the actual market.
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June 07, 2019, 07:52:24 AM
 #7

Another nail in the coffin for Poloniex. Circle must be really kicking themselves now for this acquisition.

It's a bit troubling they are hanging lenders out to dry like this. I'm surprised to be honest. Other exchanges have covered much bigger losses in flash crash situations. It really doesn't bode well for future market liquidity. Aren't lenders going to leave en masse?

 
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June 07, 2019, 08:23:14 AM
 #8

Are coinlend users affected?
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June 07, 2019, 08:33:07 AM
 #9

Are coinlend users affected?

Coinlend is only a tool. When you have BTC on Poloniex which was lend using Coinlend then you're affected. When you only have other coins AND/OR only have coins on other exchanges then you're not affected.
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June 07, 2019, 11:08:44 AM
Last edit: June 07, 2019, 11:22:07 AM by countryfree
 #10

Another nail in the coffin for Poloniex. Circle must be really kicking themselves now for this acquisition.

It's a bit troubling they are hanging lenders out to dry like this. I'm surprised to be honest. Other exchanges have covered much bigger losses in flash crash situations. It really doesn't bode well for future market liquidity. Aren't lenders going to leave en masse?

I will. I have accounts at all exchanges, but I will stop doing business with Poloniex.

I've kept my Binance account when they've been hacked, because that can happen to everybody, I've also kept my Bitfinex account, because they were the victim of a shady partner (Crypto Capital), but I blame Poloniex here. And Circle which is behind. They should cover the loss. Bitfinex has lost $850 millions, but their customers haven't lost a cent.

I blame Poloniex their software, and their judgement. So does Yahoo:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/poloniex-leaves-itself-open-legal-000333198.html

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 07, 2019, 09:29:10 PM
 #11

I doubt as a margin lender you can do anything but to accept the outcome - given the fact that their terms of service would have had these things written down beforehand.

However, I don't really understand why they didn't take the appropriate actions that they talked about in their medium post BEFORE the flash crashes actually happened that led to these losses, as opposed to after. It just goes to show that margin lending isn't as risk free as everybody thinks.

They should have recognised these liquidity issues within certain markets way beforehand and they were pretty much the only exchange offering margin trading for these pairs at that point anyways.

 
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June 07, 2019, 11:06:09 PM
 #12

I wasn't naive. I've learned how the system worked by trial and error. I've done margin trading a few times, and it happened to me once that a position I had was liquidated to prevent going above my collateral. That was good. That made me feel confident that lending was very safe. The system had prevented any loss to occur. The software worked fine back then.
Poloniex is definitely responsible if something went wrong.

It's also very bad for this company, because frankly they're not newbies. Poloniex is one of the oldest trading places. It was the best and largest service some 2 years ago, but by pooling the loss of a the few among all their honest and loyal lenders... It is very, very bad for their reputation, to say the least.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 08, 2019, 08:11:56 AM
 #13

At the high, the marketcap of Clam was about 8585 BTC, and at the May 25 low, the marketcap fell to about 1939 BTC, or a difference of about 6645 BTC. Poloniex allows for 2.5x margin trading, which means the value of the margin longs, plus the value of the collateral was just under 35% of all Clam outstanding. This is assuming all margin long positions were opened at the high and sold at the low, that margin was maxed out on all positions, and all positions were secured entirely by Clam.

The losses exceed the trading volume of Clam during the flash crash, so it is probably safe to assume not all positions were sold immidiately. If no Clams were sold, and their value was written down to zero, as few as 21% of Clams outsanding could have been in open positions. I would believe that Poloniex sold the open Clams positions they were unable to sell in the open market, probably at a fairly large discount.

Poloniex is the only major exchange Clam trades on, so any major price action would have occured on Poloniex. Overall, the losses are the result of poor risk management on the part of Poloniex. They should not have allowed such a large percentage of coins outstanding to be bought in margin long positions. I also suspect they initially were automatically closing out margin positions in mass before someone pulled the plug to automatic licquidations that probably caused a large portion of the price decline.

I don't think this would have happened on a more professional exchange.

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June 08, 2019, 12:15:52 PM
 #14

I'm amazed at how pisspoor Circle's handling of Poloniex has been. They've pretty much done nothing with it. Even if they're only placeholding they should at least make an effort for the existing users.

As for this, they allowed this to happen. They should be picking up the bill. Stuff like this will only speed up its drive into oblivion. In a space filled with utter waste $400 million for this looks like one of the biggest cash bonfires of all.

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June 08, 2019, 03:43:38 PM
 #15

I'm amazed at how pisspoor Circle's handling of Poloniex has been. They've pretty much done nothing with it. Even if they're only placeholding they should at least make an effort for the existing users.

As for this, they allowed this to happen. They should be picking up the bill. Stuff like this will only speed up its drive into oblivion. In a space filled with utter waste $400 million for this looks like one of the biggest cash bonfires of all.

I can only agree.

Allowing huge margin trading on that Clam sh*tcoin was unprofessional, and now asking their customers to pay for that mistake is even worse. I've started to withdraw my funds... You wonder what's next because I cannot a trust a company where this happens. No investor can. Your coins are not safe at Poloniex.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 08, 2019, 06:15:14 PM
 #16

Poloniex allows for 2.5x margin trading, which means the value of the margin longs, plus the value of the collateral was just under 35% of all Clam outstanding.

How are you calculating the 35%? Based on your assumptions, I'm doing: -1800 = (1939/8585)x - (2.5/3.5)x, which gives 3,685 BTC for the longs and collateral, or 43% of all CLAM.

Quote
The losses exceed the trading volume of Clam during the flash crash, so it is probably safe to assume not all positions were sold immidiately. If no Clams were sold, and their value was written down to zero, as few as 21% of Clams outsanding could have been in open positions. I would believe that Poloniex sold the open Clams positions they were unable to sell in the open market, probably at a fairly large discount.

You are right. 444 BTC of volume occurred in the first five minutes, but that only took the price down to 180K sat. There was less than 150 BTC down from there to 53K sat. That's not enough to account for a 1800 BTC loss. At most, it accounts for only 650 BTC.
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June 08, 2019, 09:26:16 PM
 #17

Poloniex allows for 2.5x margin trading, which means the value of the margin longs, plus the value of the collateral was just under 35% of all Clam outstanding.

How are you calculating the 35%? Based on your assumptions, I'm doing: -1800 = (1939/8585)x - (2.5/3.5)x, which gives 3,685 BTC for the longs and collateral, or 43% of all CLAM.
The change in market cap was 6647 btc. I got this based on 3,625,200 outstanding, a high price of 0.00236825 btc, and a low price of 0.000535 btc. The high market cap was 8585 btc.

The 1800 BTC loss made up 20.96% of clams, if they were bought at the high. In other words, you could spend 1800 btc to buy 20.96% of clams outstanding at the high price. At 2.5x leverage, Poloniex's customers need to have collateral valued at 40% of margin loans outstanding, calculated by x = 1/2.5. 40% of 20.96 is 8.38, so an additional 8.38% of clams outstanding would need to be used as collateral for an 1800 BTC margin loan, bringing the total to 29.34% of clams.

I believe the above is actually how the margin system still works on Poloniex, and this actually results in traders being able to get 3.5x leverage, because they can use 1 BTC to buy 3.5 BTC worth of a position if the collateral is the same as the trading pair. I was able to replicate my mistake in saying that 35% of clams outstanding were used in margin loans plus collateral by incorrectly assuming a total of 2.5x leverage, or borrowing 1.5x the value of the clam collateral, or having equity of 60% of the margin loan.

Quote
The losses exceed the trading volume of Clam during the flash crash, so it is probably safe to assume not all positions were sold immidiately. If no Clams were sold, and their value was written down to zero, as few as 21% of Clams outsanding could have been in open positions. I would believe that Poloniex sold the open Clams positions they were unable to sell in the open market, probably at a fairly large discount.

You are right. 444 BTC of volume occurred in the first five minutes, but that only took the price down to 180K sat. There was less than 150 BTC down from there to 53K sat. That's not enough to account for a 1800 BTC loss. At most, it accounts for only 650 BTC.
The 30 minute tick with 444 BTC traded has a low price of 0.00175 BTC, which is at most ~253,000 clam, or ~6.9% of clam outstanding. The following two 30 minute ticks only have about 20 BTC traded in each tick, with a low of 0.00112 BTC, with a maximum traded of about 35.7k clam, or under 1% of clam outstanding.

They should be picking up the bill.
Most exchanges that offer margin lending would cover losses in these types of situation. There is language in the TOS that says the lenders are taking the risk that borrowers will be unable to repay the margin loans, and lenders may not be repaid the full amount.

The reason exchanges will often cover losses is because if they do not, lenders will not want to use the platform to lend, which will lead to higher interest rates for borrowers, which will lead to lower trading volumes and lower profits for the exchange. I guess Poloniex thought the 1800 btc loss was not enough to justify keeping confidence in their lending platform. If they had the money, they could have bought the clam, and sold it over time at a higher price, and prevented the market from dumping from all the margin liquidations. I expect most lenders to stop using Poloniex to lend out their coins.

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June 09, 2019, 09:57:03 AM
 #18

https://medium.com/circle-trader/overview-of-btc-margin-lending-pool-losses-a2f0905aaa56

Scary. I used to think lending money on Poloniex or Biftinex was safe. Not anymore.

Quote
Today, we recognized the generalized loss across lenders in the BTC margin lending pool. As a result, the principal of all active BTC loans as of 14:00 UTC today has been reduced by 16.202%.

So, if you were lending money on Poloniex, you've lost 16.202% of it... Man, that hurts!

This will likely push interest rates on other lending platforms up as well, given the fact that the market is now given a lot more awareness about how potentially risky their investments are, while they previously thought it was something that was risk free.

I'm surprised that Polo isn't offering to at least compensate in some way, though, given the fault is probably partially on them for offering margin trading on illiquid markets anyways.

I doubt their 'debt recovery' will go that well anyways. It's probably extremely difficult to get anyone, especially people with high amounts invested at the time to pay back their dues, especially when their positions should have automatically closed in the first place.

 
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June 09, 2019, 12:48:16 PM
 #19

The 1800 BTC loss made up 20.96% of clams, if they were bought at the high. In other words, you could spend 1800 btc to buy 20.96% of clams outstanding at the high price. At 2.5x leverage, Poloniex's customers need to have collateral valued at 40% of margin loans outstanding, calculated by x = 1/2.5. 40% of 20.96 is 8.38, so an additional 8.38% of clams outstanding would need to be used as collateral for an 1800 BTC margin loan, bringing the total to 29.34% of clams.

I believe the above is actually how the margin system still works on Poloniex, and this actually results in traders being able to get 3.5x leverage, because they can use 1 BTC to buy 3.5 BTC worth of a position if the collateral is the same as the trading pair. I was able to replicate my mistake in saying that 35% of clams outstanding were used in margin loans plus collateral by incorrectly assuming a total of 2.5x leverage, or borrowing 1.5x the value of the clam collateral, or having equity of 60% of the margin loan.

Thanks. I see from your calculations that Clam would be treated as having zero value. That would tie in with my equation where 1939 is replaced by 0.
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June 09, 2019, 02:59:21 PM
 #20

I'm surprised that Polo isn't offering to at least compensate in some way, though, given the fault is probably partially on them for offering margin trading on illiquid markets anyways...

...especially when their positions should have automatically closed in the first place.

I'm getting legal advice, and I've received confirmation that pooling losses is illegal.
The default is 100% due to Poloniex's negligence. If the other trading platforms didn't allow margin trading on CLAM, that's because they were smarter.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 09, 2019, 10:08:24 PM
 #21

I'm getting legal advice, and I've received confirmation that pooling losses is illegal.
The default is 100% due to Poloniex's negligence. If the other trading platforms didn't allow margin trading on CLAM, that's because they were smarter.

Be prepared for a long battle if you seek remedy through the courts. It goes without saying that Gox claimants are still waiting for justice after five years.
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June 10, 2019, 12:17:20 AM
 #22

The 1800 BTC loss made up 20.96% of clams, if they were bought at the high. In other words, you could spend 1800 btc to buy 20.96% of clams outstanding at the high price. At 2.5x leverage, Poloniex's customers need to have collateral valued at 40% of margin loans outstanding, calculated by x = 1/2.5. 40% of 20.96 is 8.38, so an additional 8.38% of clams outstanding would need to be used as collateral for an 1800 BTC margin loan, bringing the total to 29.34% of clams.

I believe the above is actually how the margin system still works on Poloniex, and this actually results in traders being able to get 3.5x leverage, because they can use 1 BTC to buy 3.5 BTC worth of a position if the collateral is the same as the trading pair. I was able to replicate my mistake in saying that 35% of clams outstanding were used in margin loans plus collateral by incorrectly assuming a total of 2.5x leverage, or borrowing 1.5x the value of the clam collateral, or having equity of 60% of the margin loan.

Thanks. I see from your calculations that Clam would be treated as having zero value. That would tie in with my equation where 1939 is replaced by 0.
It is possible there was a higher percentage of clam in margin long positions and serving as collateral. I think most likely, Poloniex initially automatically market sold some margin long positions, stopped this, and sold the remaining clam held in customer accounts in margin long positions via an OTC trade.

I'm surprised that Polo isn't offering to at least compensate in some way, though, given the fault is probably partially on them for offering margin trading on illiquid markets anyways...

...especially when their positions should have automatically closed in the first place.

I'm getting legal advice, and I've received confirmation that pooling losses is illegal.
The default is 100% due to Poloniex's negligence. If the other trading platforms didn't allow margin trading on CLAM, that's because they were smarter.

Please see this:
<>
15. MARGIN TRADING
<>When you lend Digital Assets to other Users, you risk the loss of an unpaid principal if the borrower defaults on a loan and liquidation of the borrower’s Account fails to raise sufficient Digital Assets to cover the borrower’s debt. Although Poloniex takes several precautions to prevent borrowing Users from defaulting on loans, the high volatility and substantial risk of illiquidity in markets means that Poloniex cannot make any guarantees to any Users using the Services against default.
<>
29. GOVERNING LAW; VENUE AND ARBITRATION
<>
Except for claims for injunctive or equitable relief or claims regarding intellectual property rights (which may be brought, in an individual capacity only, and not on a class-wide or representative basis, in the courts specified above), any dispute between you and Poloniex related in any way to, or arising in any way from, our Services or this Agreement (“Dispute”) shall be finally settled on an individual, non-representative basis in binding arbitration in accordance with the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) rules for arbitration of consumer-related disputes (available from AAA on its website at www.adr.org), as modified by this Agreement or in accordance with rules on which we may mutually agree; provided, however, that to the extent a Dispute is within the scope of a small claims court’s jurisdiction, either you or Poloniex may commence an action in small claims court, in the county (or equivalent) of your most recent physical address, to resolve the Dispute.

Any arbitration will be conducted by a single, neutral arbitrator and shall take place in Boston, Massachusetts, USA. The arbitrator may award any relief that a court of competent jurisdiction could award, including attorneys’ fees when authorized by law. The arbitral decision may be enforced in any court of competent jurisdiction. You hereby agree that this Agreement evidences a transaction involving interstate commerce, and therefore, the Federal Arbitration Act (“FAA”) applies to this Agreement, including the agreement to arbitrate set forth in this Section 29. We each agree that the FAA, and not state law, shall govern whether a Dispute is subject to arbitration.
<>

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June 10, 2019, 02:43:40 PM
 #23

Please see this:

Are you working for Poloniex?

Actually, I'm still getting the facts, and I have yet to understand how Poloniex took money from its clients.

I'm a victim here, my money was lent at Poloniex. It was not sitting waiting for an offer, it was lent. On Friday, the sum of money I had lent has been reduced by 16%. But the loans I had were still running. And that money, it was used by people doing some margin trading. So, those people doing margin trading at the time, have they experienced a 16% reduction of their trades?

We're talking about 1,800 BTC here. If I look at the daily volume traded at Poloniex, it's very, very substantial.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 10, 2019, 03:56:37 PM
 #24

Please see this:

Are you working for Poloniex?

Actually, I'm still getting the facts, and I have yet to understand how Poloniex took money from its clients.

I'm a victim here, my money was lent at Poloniex. It was not sitting waiting for an offer, it was lent. On Friday, the sum of money I had lent has been reduced by 16%. But the loans I had were still running. And that money, it was used by people doing some margin trading. So, those people doing margin trading at the time, have they experienced a 16% reduction of their trades?

We're talking about 1,800 BTC here. If I look at the daily volume traded at Poloniex, it's very, very substantial.
No I have never been affiliated with Poloniex, and after this incident I probably wouldn’t be interested in working for them if an opportunity presented itself.

I have an account with Poloniex that has dust amounts due to not closing out entire positions when trading and I have lent on Poloniex among other exchanges in the past.

Based on the available public information, Poloniex is claiming there were 11,250 btc, approximately in outstanding margin loans on the day of the flash crash. They are claiming that some positions were force liquidated and upon liquidation, after bringing account balances down to zero, there remains a deficit of 1800 btc that cannot be repaid. They have not said this, but I presume they kept these margin loans outstanding so lenders could not withdraw coin that should be deducted from their balance.

It is a well known risk that margin loans may not be repaid in full. This risk is disclosed in the TOS of any exchange that offers margin loans. Most exchanges will cover margin losses in order to maintain confidence in their lending markets, that will lead to higher liquidity and trading volumes. In this case, Poloniex probably decided the cost of covering the losses exceeded the additional revenue that continued margin lending will lead to.

Not everyone who had a margin loan outstanding at the time defaulted nor has negative equity, for example a customer who borrowed btc to bet on ETH going up presumably can repay their margin loan as agreed. Instead of deducting the balance from specific lenders whose loans defaulted, Poloniex socialized losses among all btc lenders. It is unclear to me if this specific action is legal and in accordance with their TOS, but I also understand why they would want to be this,  and I would presume they obtained legal counsel to advise them the legality of this action.

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June 10, 2019, 06:20:51 PM
 #25

Polo likes to socialize losses

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=499580.0
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June 11, 2019, 02:34:58 PM
 #26

Reading this belatedly and just only now recalling that I used to loan out quite heavily on Poloniex in early and mid 2017. Didn't know it at the time, but my BTC was snapped up at really big interest rates (if I recall some even almost 1% daily) because of the huge FOMO going on especially in the alt markets. I made some really good profit just loaning out 10-30 day term loans. Had no idea I was exposing myself to "socialised losses".

The risks we take. As if leaving our funds on exchanges aren't enough risks. Glad I gave up doing that. Can't bear thinking of what happens if someone decides I should share their loss...

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June 11, 2019, 03:52:50 PM
 #27

Based on the available public information, Poloniex is claiming there were 11,250 btc, approximately in outstanding margin loans on the day of the flash crash.

11,250 btc?
Source, please. It sounds crazy that such a minor crypto was so heavily traded...

But I think we've talked enough about what happened on May the 26th. What needs to be explained is what happened on Friday the 14th of June. I've described what happened to me on post #23, just above.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 11, 2019, 05:11:23 PM
 #28

11,250 btc?
Source, please. It sounds crazy that such a minor crypto was so heavily traded...

That number represents total loans across the platform, which is quite different from Clam trading volume. It is calculated by working backwards from the 16% and BTC1800 haircut.


Reading this belatedly and just only now recalling that I used to loan out quite heavily on Poloniex in early and mid 2017. Didn't know it at the time, but my BTC was snapped up at really big interest rates (if I recall some even almost 1% daily) because of the huge FOMO going on especially in the alt markets.

Good times. I remember getting 1% daily as well for a short while.  Cool
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June 12, 2019, 04:54:45 PM
 #29

Reading this belatedly and just only now recalling that I used to loan out quite heavily on Poloniex in early and mid 2017. Didn't know it at the time, but my BTC was snapped up at really big interest rates (if I recall some even almost 1% daily) because of the huge FOMO going on especially in the alt markets.

Good times. I remember getting 1% daily as well for a short while.  Cool

Yes, I was there too. Nowadays, I've lost 16% and it will take me many months to get them back. On other platforms, of course...

Nobody has talked about it, but one thing is strange:

Clam's crypto-crash was on May the 26th, but Poloniex took money from its customers on June the 6th. For 10 days, they had covered the loss. And I didn't even knew that the Clam crypto-crap had crashed. Then, suddenly, Poloniex changed its mind, and decided to make their customers pay.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 12, 2019, 05:56:15 PM
 #30

Nobody has talked about it, but one thing is strange:

Clam's crypto-crash was on May the 26th, but Poloniex took money from its customers on June the 6th. For 10 days, they had covered the loss. And I didn't even knew that the Clam crypto-crap had crashed. Then, suddenly, Poloniex changed its mind, and decided to make their customers pay.

Good catch. I didn't even notice the dates.

They may have overestimated their ability to convince defaulted borrowers to pay up. A few poor saps probably deposited coins, but they probably switched gears once they realized the loss won't be recovered. This seems to be the extent of their legal threats to borrowers now:

Quote
All of the defaulted borrowers’ accounts were frozen after they defaulted and will remain frozen until they repay their loans and comply with Poloniex terms of service.

Good luck with that, Poloniex. Roll Eyes

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June 13, 2019, 03:06:15 PM
 #31


Quote
All of the defaulted borrowers’ accounts were frozen after they defaulted and will remain frozen until they repay their loans and comply with Poloniex terms of service.

Good luck with that, Poloniex. Roll Eyes

Poloniex has customers all over the world, if those who defaulted were in Russia or Lebanon, they will need more than luck...

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 14, 2019, 11:59:52 PM
 #32

Based on the available public information, Poloniex is claiming there were 11,250 btc, approximately in outstanding margin loans on the day of the flash crash.

11,250 btc?
Source, please. It sounds crazy that such a minor crypto was so heavily traded...

But I think we've talked enough about what happened on May the 26th. What needs to be explained is what happened on Friday the 14th of June. I've described what happened to me on post #23, just above.
The 11,250 figure is based on the losses and how much was taken from your lending balance. The actual figure could be higher, but probably not lower, depending on mainly if they covered some of the losses.

On May 26, Poloniex suffered major losses. On June 14, Poloniex socialized these losses on lenders of BTC at the time. I can't say with authority why there was the long delay, or what happened in the meantime. I would speculate on May 26, Poloniex took over the loan clam positions from those with negative equity and held the position for three weeks. I think they were hoping the price would increase enough so they could offload the position either over time, or in an OTC trade at a high enough price so all loans could be repaid. Poloniex could have continued renewing BTC based loans to cover the short BTC position, and so lenders would not start withdrawing to other lending platforms. Once they saw the price of clam was not going to quickly go back up, they imposed losses on btc lenders.

If you did not have a BTC loan open as of May 26, you may have a valid cause of action. The reasoning for this is simple, you should not have to cover losses for loans that you did not have open at the time of the loss.

If some lenders were able to withdraw their coin from poloniex, and the percentage of your coins taken to cover the losses was higher because of this, you may have a valid cause of action for only your additional losses. This would not apply if Poloniex seized other assets from these accounts that withdrew to cover their portion of the losses based on their btc loans outstanding as of May 26.

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June 15, 2019, 03:55:43 PM
 #33

Alleluia!
Things are getting better.

The dates are as follows.

May 26th: 1,800 BTC loss for Poloniex because of the Clam crash.
June 6th: Poloniex covers its loss by seizing money from its customers.
June 14th: Poloniex has realized something went wrong, and it starts to reimburse its customers. I have about 10% back, and in an email, Poloniex wrote that "You can expect additional payments in the future."

It's great, great relief, even if I'm still waiting for the remaining 90%.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 15, 2019, 07:10:54 PM
 #34

June 14th: Poloniex has realized something went wrong, and it starts to reimburse its customers. I have about 10% back, and in an email, Poloniex wrote that "You can expect additional payments in the future."

It's great, great relief, even if I'm still waiting for the remaining 90%.
I am guessing Poloniex sent some kind of demand to customers who have negative equity to repay the negative equity and some customers repaid, totaling about 180 btc. Poloniex possibly has some kind of legal reserve in case some customers sue it in relation to this incident, and this risk would be removed once they repay all their lenders, so they may not need customers to repay 100% of their negative equity.

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June 15, 2019, 11:57:03 PM
 #35

Clam's crypto-crash was on May the 26th, but Poloniex took money from its customers on June the 6th. For 10 days, they had covered the loss. And I didn't even knew that the Clam crypto-crap had crashed. Then, suddenly, Poloniex changed its mind, and decided to make their customers pay.
I don't quite understand this, they have faulty lending system but make their customers pay the losses?
so was the clam price artificially pushed high to exploit this opportunity?
or it was just simply a coincidence sudden price crash caused this

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June 16, 2019, 03:30:34 AM
 #36

Another nail in the coffin for Poloniex. Circle must be really kicking themselves now for this acquisition.

the Circle team are probably the worst people in the whole world handling business. they have no idea what they are doing and in all these years they have not even gained smallest experience whatsoever. i remember a couple of years ago they even attacked bitcoin and blamed it for their failed business and losses! not to mention that Poloniex was once number one exchange before they were bought by Circle Cheesy

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June 16, 2019, 05:03:06 AM
 #37

Alleluia!
Things are getting better.

The dates are as follows.

May 26th: 1,800 BTC loss for Poloniex because of the Clam crash.
June 6th: Poloniex covers its loss by seizing money from its customers.
June 14th: Poloniex has realized something went wrong, and it starts to reimburse its customers. I have about 10% back, and in an email, Poloniex wrote that "You can expect additional payments in the future."

It's great, great relief, even if I'm still waiting for the remaining 90%.

glad to hear it. i was amazed they left lenders in the lurch and am glad to see they've seen the error of their ways. screw over your lenders like that and liquidity will suffer!

I don't quite understand this, they have faulty lending system but make their customers pay the losses?
so was the clam price artificially pushed high to exploit this opportunity?
or it was just simply a coincidence sudden price crash caused this

it was poloniex's fault, exacerbated by dumb borrowers margin longing shitcoins with no liquidity. they allowed buyers to build leveraged positions much larger than actual market liquidity could support. then came a flash crash that wiped everyone out. borrowers were heavily in default and poloniex refused to cover those losses. seems like they are changing their minds now.

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June 16, 2019, 01:05:29 PM
 #38

not to mention that Poloniex was once number one exchange before they were bought by Circle Cheesy

Polo went downhill before Circle jumped in. During the spring and summer of '17 with the influx of new user registrations, they completely went to pot. Trade engine was lagging, you couldn't get verified to get your money out, no response from CS for months if ever. It was this that lead to the exodus of OG traders.
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June 16, 2019, 05:51:18 PM
 #39

Thank you everyone for your support.
 Cool

It's only a small victory, though. Poloniex has only reimbursed me 10%...But at the very least, with this they acknowledge that what they did was not correct.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 18, 2019, 04:30:11 AM
 #40

Alleluia!
Things are getting better.

The dates are as follows.

May 26th: 1,800 BTC loss for Poloniex because of the Clam crash.
June 6th: Poloniex covers its loss by seizing money from its customers.
June 14th: Poloniex has realized something went wrong, and it starts to reimburse its customers. I have about 10% back, and in an email, Poloniex wrote that "You can expect additional payments in the future."

It's great, great relief, even if I'm still waiting for the remaining 90%.

Having lived through a few "socialised losses" over the years, I remain somewhat sceptical. That initial ~10% could represent the easiest funds to recover from overdrawn accounts, or perhaps a portion of Poloniex's reserves/operating funds.

At least they seem to be repaying in BTC - like for like - rather than some internal token which has its value fixed to the exchange rate on the day of the event.
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June 18, 2019, 05:10:58 PM
 #41

Having lived through a few "socialised losses" over the years, I remain somewhat sceptical. That initial ~10% could represent the easiest funds to recover from overdrawn accounts, or perhaps a portion of Poloniex's reserves/operating funds.

At least they seem to be repaying in BTC - like for like - rather than some internal token which has its value fixed to the exchange rate on the day of the event.

With Poloniex?
I think I've had some money in my lending wallet at Poloniex continuously since mid 2016. I had never experienced any "socialized loss". Do you think I was lucky? Anyway, I'm still missing 90% of the 16% Poloniex seized from my account, and that's substantial money. So I'm not so lucky...

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 19, 2019, 07:24:58 AM
 #42

Having lived through a few "socialised losses" over the years, I remain somewhat sceptical. That initial ~10% could represent the easiest funds to recover from overdrawn accounts, or perhaps a portion of Poloniex's reserves/operating funds.

At least they seem to be repaying in BTC - like for like - rather than some internal token which has its value fixed to the exchange rate on the day of the event.

With Poloniex?
I think I've had some money in my lending wallet at Poloniex continuously since mid 2016. I had never experienced any "socialized loss". Do you think I was lucky? Anyway, I'm still missing 90% of the 16% Poloniex seized from my account, and that's substantial money. So I'm not so lucky...

I've been affected by losses at mtgox, Vircurex, bter, Cryptsy, Cryptopia, etc. Some are fairly absolute (such as Cryptsy abruptly going out of business) but others have been some event (such as a hack) which resulted in "haircuts" being applied to customer balances.

So I was speaking generally about past events with other exchanges, not specifically Poloniex. Sorry for not making that clear.
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June 19, 2019, 01:41:42 PM
 #43

Having lived through a few "socialised losses" over the years, I remain somewhat sceptical. That initial ~10% could represent the easiest funds to recover from overdrawn accounts, or perhaps a portion of Poloniex's reserves/operating funds.

At least they seem to be repaying in BTC - like for like - rather than some internal token which has its value fixed to the exchange rate on the day of the event.

With Poloniex?
I think I've had some money in my lending wallet at Poloniex continuously since mid 2016. I had never experienced any "socialized loss". Do you think I was lucky? Anyway, I'm still missing 90% of the 16% Poloniex seized from my account, and that's substantial money. So I'm not so lucky...

I've been affected by losses at mtgox, Vircurex, bter, Cryptsy, Cryptopia, etc. Some are fairly absolute (such as Cryptsy abruptly going out of business) but others have been some event (such as a hack) which resulted in "haircuts" being applied to customer balances.

So I was speaking generally about past events with other exchanges, not specifically Poloniex. Sorry for not making that clear.

OK, thanks.

I've always been very, very cautious about choosing exchanges.
I've used Poloniex, Bitfinex, Binance and Kraken. That's it.

And I've never had any bad experiences, besides a few delays when making deposits or withdrawals.

Poloniex was my first bad experience (after several good years)! And I hope the last...

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 20, 2019, 11:03:38 AM
 #44

Is there some lenders club who negotiating with the exchange, preparing lawsuit etc?
How can I join?
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June 20, 2019, 03:32:17 PM
 #45

Is there some lenders club who negotiating with the exchange, preparing lawsuit etc?
How can I join?

Can you please answer the following questions:

Did you have 16% of the money in your lending wallet seized on June 6th?
Did you get about 10% back on June the 14th?
Have you been exchanging with Poloniex already?
Are you a US citizen?
Where do you live? (I'm based in central Europe).

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 20, 2019, 11:58:47 PM
 #46

Is there some lenders club who negotiating with the exchange, preparing lawsuit etc?
How can I join?

Can you please answer the following questions:
<>
Are you a US citizen?
<>
Poloniex actually closed margin borrowing and lending to US customers several months ago. You also need to verify your account to deposit. There should not be anyone from the US who lost money.

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June 21, 2019, 10:12:26 AM
 #47

Is there some lenders club who negotiating with the exchange, preparing lawsuit etc?
How can I join?

Can you please answer the following questions:

Did you have 16% of the money in your lending wallet seized on June 6th? yes
Did you get about 10% back on June the 14th? yes
Have you been exchanging with Poloniex already?  i've go some clarification from support team
Are you a US citizen? no
Where do you live? (I'm based in central Europe). russia

my mail is stormos at gmail


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June 21, 2019, 01:53:34 PM
 #48

Is there some lenders club who negotiating with the exchange, preparing lawsuit etc?
How can I join?

Can you please answer the following questions:

Did you have 16% of the money in your lending wallet seized on June 6th? yes
Did you get about 10% back on June the 14th? yes
Have you been exchanging with Poloniex already?  i've go some clarification from support team
Are you a US citizen? no
Where do you live? (I'm based in central Europe). russia


One thing I forgot to ask, have you ever owned any CLAM?
That's the big idea, I've never owned any CLAM so I should not suffer from that sh*tcoin's collapse.

Anyhow, things won't be easy. We're in different countries, and Poloniex is in America.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 21, 2019, 03:29:19 PM
 #49

One thing I forgot to ask, have you ever owned any CLAM?
That's the big idea, I've never owned any CLAM so I should not suffer from that sh*tcoin's collapse.

Anyhow, things won't be easy. We're in different countries, and Poloniex is in America.


CLAM was airdropped to all bitcoin holders. I redeemed it and sold immediately at another exchange years ago.

I think we should hire american lawyer to represent our interests

I strongly believe It wasn't just a shitcoin collapse but a fraud and Poloniex was a tool. I can show it with a numbers
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June 22, 2019, 05:23:05 PM
Merited by PrimeNumber7 (1)
 #50

I think we should hire american lawyer to represent our interests

I strongly believe It wasn't just a shitcoin collapse but a fraud and Poloniex was a tool. I can show it with a numbers


We have one problem, and it's a big problem. There's not enough of us. 1,800 BTC have been seized and that's huge, so there should be many of us with the same problem. I created this topic to find other victims, where are they?

If you've been a victim of Poloniex in this affair, please participate in this topic.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 24, 2019, 05:38:05 PM
 #51

I've found a willing lawyer if there are people interested, but the status of the case will depend of the number of victims...

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 27, 2019, 11:00:26 AM
 #52

i heard some victims were blocked by polo because their over-emotional conversations with support
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June 27, 2019, 11:43:00 AM
 #53

Came here thanks to this message.

 Now, I was personally not affected by this, but I'm part of a Lending group on telegram and some users have indeed been affected. Every update I've received comes from there, and I've just read this posted today:

Quote
Jun 7
More
CLAM incident update: Make no mistake, we’re committed to making affected lenders whole, come hell or high water. We’re working on meeting this goal, including (but not limited to) recovering what the defaulted borrowers owe lenders. Regardless, losses will be addressed.

From there, I believe the exchange is trying to make ammends, but I'm not sure everyone sees it the same way

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June 27, 2019, 11:58:49 AM
 #54

Came here thanks to this message.

 Now, I was personally not affected by this, but I'm part of a Lending group on telegram and some users have indeed been affected. Every update I've received comes from there, and I've just read this posted today:

From there, I believe the exchange is trying to make ammends, but I'm not sure everyone sees it the same way

Could you please invite me to the group?
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June 27, 2019, 06:46:30 PM
 #55

... but I'm part of a Lending group on telegram and some users have indeed been affected. Every update I've received comes from there, and I've just read this posted today:

Quote
Jun 7
More
CLAM incident update: Make no mistake, we’re committed to making affected lenders whole, come hell or high water. We’re working on meeting this goal, including (but not limited to) recovering what the defaulted borrowers owe lenders. Regardless, losses will be addressed.

From there, I believe the exchange is trying to make ammends, but I'm not sure everyone sees it the same way

The problem is far from solved, I'm still missing 90% of my money, like all the pople affected I believe.

I'm not very familiar with Telegram, can you giver the name of that group? Can anyone join, or do you need to be invited?

You may also tell the other guys about this topic, thanks.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 27, 2019, 06:51:56 PM
 #56

The problem is far from solved, I'm still missing 90% of my money, like all the pople affected I believe.

I'm really sorry to hear that, hope it gets sorted out

I'm not very familiar with Telegram, can you giver the name of that group? Can anyone join, or do you need to be invited?

You may also tell the other guys about this topic, thanks.

Yeah, sure! It's the group from the lending bot Coinlend; it's an open group and the link is the following: https://t.me/CoinlendOfficial

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June 27, 2019, 08:15:16 PM
 #57

I've found a willing lawyer if there are people interested, but the status of the case will depend of the number of victims...

have you managed to track down other victims? at 1800 BTC generalized loss (1620 BTC if 10% was refunded) there must be some big lenders affected. i'm surprised at how quiet this story has been.

i'm assuming polo hasn't said a word since they refunded the 10%? they should at least establish some sort of payment plan out of their profits like bitfinex did after they were hacked.

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June 27, 2019, 10:57:29 PM
 #58

they should at least establish some sort of payment plan out of their profits like bitfinex did after they were hacked.
I don't think poloniex plans on using money from their profits to repay lenders. I believe their intention to solely use coins recovered from defaulted borrowers. At least this is my understanding

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June 27, 2019, 11:11:34 PM
 #59

they should at least establish some sort of payment plan out of their profits like bitfinex did after they were hacked.
I don't think poloniex plans on using money from their profits to repay lenders. I believe their intention to solely use coins recovered from defaulted borrowers. At least this is my understanding

That is my understanding as well, and that's what's stated on their announcement since the beginning. They've shown no intentions to make amends.

I personally think that they should at least take some responsibility over this ordeal. They were stupid enough to let the CLAM/BTC pair to be traded on margin despite knowing full well that the liquidity of clams were extremely low, as I've stated before. They even acknowledged this themselves. If you acknowledge that, then why aren't you taking responsibility?

i heard some victims were blocked by polo because their over-emotional conversations with support

Where did you get this info? If this is true, then it's unprofessional by Polo. Users will get emotional at times, especially when their money's at stake.

 
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June 28, 2019, 08:24:25 AM
 #60

Where did you get this info?

private conversations with strangers from russian telegram polo chat.

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June 28, 2019, 08:55:56 AM
 #61

I blame following polo's mistakes in our loses
Intransparency. Poloniex lending market is intransparent compare to bitfinex where you know total and your personal exposure to a collateral asset. Obviously polo have changed their loss management policy after the incident
Lack of risk management procedures on the exchange side. Our funds was the main (and only) driver for the whole pump. Probably pumper(s) had intention to rob us at the very beginning. In this case, polo should seize pumper’s assets and give it to us.
If polo will fail to obtain funds from borrowers/pumper, we should get portion of 15% lending fee until full repayment
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June 28, 2019, 09:35:03 AM
 #62

I've found a willing lawyer if there are people interested, but the status of the case will depend of the number of victims...

have you managed to track down other victims? at 1800 BTC generalized loss (1620 BTC if 10% was refunded) there must be some big lenders affected. i'm surprised at how quiet this story has been.

i'm assuming polo hasn't said a word since they refunded the 10%? they should at least establish some sort of payment plan out of their profits like bitfinex did after they were hacked.

I've found only 3 other people so far! Don't know where to find the other victims... And no news from Poloniex since they gave 10% back. I've asked support about waht's next, but no answer so far...

Now getting legal advice, I've been told that proving there was a fraud would be very difficult, unless having access to Poloniex's whole data, but there was definitely a mistake. Things like this, that CLAM crash because of crazy margin trading, should never happen.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 28, 2019, 10:02:30 AM
 #63

Polo victims telegram group https://t.me/joinchat/Dn0zBRZOyaYnp6O8oDsLAw
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June 28, 2019, 07:26:39 PM
 #64

Yeah, sure! It's the group from the lending bot Coinlend; it's an open group and the link is the following: https://t.me/CoinlendOfficial

Thanks for info, but actually, I won't join that group. It's quite possible it was a bot which made the CLAM sh*tcoin crash. I don't trust bots, Poloniex should not allow them...


Thanks a lot, I've just joined that group. We shall be all individual private investors there.


If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 28, 2019, 11:05:14 PM
 #65

Now getting legal advice, I've been told that proving there was a fraud would be very difficult, unless having access to Poloniex's whole data, but there was definitely a mistake. Things like this, that CLAM crash because of crazy margin trading, should never happen.

I wouldn't think fraud would be the angle here. Something like negligence with regard to capital and margin requirements, maybe.

Does anyone know what jurisdiction this case would fall under? Did the lawyer you spoke to say? As a US company, capital and margin requirements would normally be covered by CFTC regulations. Since US persons aren't allowed to lend or margin trade on Poloniex, I'm not sure they apply here.

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June 29, 2019, 12:38:36 AM
 #66

I see rates are down to 2% apr again. I guess lenders there are just gluttons for punishment? Lips sealed
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June 29, 2019, 10:48:14 AM
 #67

Now getting legal advice, I've been told that proving there was a fraud would be very difficult, unless having access to Poloniex's whole data, but there was definitely a mistake. Things like this, that CLAM crash because of crazy margin trading, should never happen.

I wouldn't think fraud would be the angle here. Something like negligence with regard to capital and margin requirements, maybe.

Does anyone know what jurisdiction this case would fall under? Did the lawyer you spoke to say? As a US company, capital and margin requirements would normally be covered by CFTC regulations. Since US persons aren't allowed to lend or margin trade on Poloniex, I'm not sure they apply here.

Yes, negligence, but there's also the fact that socializing losses is illegal in the US. Poloniex says it's OK because it wasn't offering its services to US customers... Easy answer!

I see rates are down to 2% apr again. I guess lenders there are just gluttons for punishment? Lips sealed

Yes, very stupid. Now that we know that lending is unsafe at Poloniex, doing it to earn a measly 2% is plain stupid.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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June 29, 2019, 10:04:04 PM
 #68

they should at least establish some sort of payment plan out of their profits like bitfinex did after they were hacked.
I don't think poloniex plans on using money from their profits to repay lenders. I believe their intention to solely use coins recovered from defaulted borrowers. At least this is my understanding

That is my understanding as well, and that's what's stated on their announcement since the beginning. They've shown no intentions to make amends.

I personally think that they should at least take some responsibility over this ordeal. They were stupid enough to let the CLAM/BTC pair to be traded on margin despite knowing full well that the liquidity of clams were extremely low, as I've stated before. They even acknowledged this themselves. If you acknowledge that, then why aren't you taking responsibility?

There is language in their TOS that I believe relives Poloniex from legal responsibility from covering the losses. This means that only mechanism to force Poloniex from taking responsibility is the market. In other words, you need to be willing to vote with your coin, and let it be known this situation is why you are no longer using their platform -- if enough other people do the same, they may decide to use their own money to repay some of the losses; I don't think this will happen unless lending rates on Poloniex become much higher than on competing platforms. If borrowing rates on Poloniex are higher than on other margin platforms, traders will not want to use Poloniex because they can trade on margin elsewhere with less costs.

I was not personally affected, and I cannot lend on Poloniex, but this situation makes me to want to not use Poloniex in the future.

I see rates are down to 2% apr again. I guess lenders there are just gluttons for punishment? Lips sealed
I checked coinlend.org and I see around 3.1% p.a. compared to 2.1% on bitfinex and 1.1% on quoine. Maybe there are enough people not paying close attention to bid down the interest rates this low.

I think at a minimum, lenders would need an 8% pa premium over competitors to make the risk worth it.

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June 29, 2019, 10:58:19 PM
 #69

There is language in their TOS that I believe relives Poloniex from legal responsibility from covering the losses.

terms are not enforceable in court where they contradict the law. so the question of jurisdiction is crucial here. like countryfree said, haircutting balances with a generalized loss is 100% illegal in the USA, where poloniex is organized. but IANAL and i dunno if they've dodged a bullet by restricting USA customers from this market. if so, what laws apply here? EU? various local laws where lenders reside?

i wouldn't be surprised if the EU offered similar protections to the USA but i have no idea where to start researching the law.

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June 30, 2019, 06:27:31 PM
 #70

There is language in their TOS that I believe relives Poloniex from legal responsibility from covering the losses.

terms are not enforceable in court where they contradict the law. so the question of jurisdiction is crucial here. like countryfree said, haircutting balances with a generalized loss is 100% illegal in the USA, where poloniex is organized. but IANAL and i dunno if they've dodged a bullet by restricting USA customers from this market. if so, what laws apply here? EU? various local laws where lenders reside?

i wouldn't be surprised if the EU offered similar protections to the USA but i have no idea where to start researching the law.

Yes, the case is difficult. What Poloniex has done is illegal in the US, but the exchange says we can do it because we're not offering this service to US citizens. It's a bit like saying drugs are illegal, but there would be nothing wrong selling drugs to a Chinese tourist...

There's also lots of regulation for consumer and investor protection in the EU, but they would not apply to investments outside the EU.

Poloniex is based in Boston, so justice has to be there.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 01, 2019, 05:20:15 AM
 #71

There is language in their TOS that I believe relives Poloniex from legal responsibility from covering the losses.

terms are not enforceable in court where they contradict the law. so the question of jurisdiction is crucial here. like countryfree said, haircutting balances with a generalized loss is 100% illegal in the USA, where poloniex is organized. but IANAL and i dunno if they've dodged a bullet by restricting USA customers from this market. if so, what laws apply here? EU? various local laws where lenders reside?

i wouldn't be surprised if the EU offered similar protections to the USA but i have no idea where to start researching the law.
I am curious to know why you believe "haircutting balances with a generalized loss" is illegal in the US. I think this is exactly what happens to depositholders at banks whose deposits exceed FDIC insurance limits when they fail.

I would also point out that I do not know if Poloniex has shareholder equity equal to or greater than the amount of the loan losses. If equity is less than the amount of the loan losses, suing Poloniex may only result in you paying a lot of money in attorney fees, and Poloniex declaring bankruptcy.

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July 01, 2019, 08:10:53 PM
 #72

Poloniex declaring bankruptcy.

What's wrong with that? It would still be better than keeping the business running as usual as it is. At last, the world would be sure this won't happen again.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 02, 2019, 07:13:58 PM
 #73

Does anyone here is a regular poster on Wikipedia, or knows a journalists?
Thanks.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 03, 2019, 09:50:50 AM
 #74

maybe we should push poloniex to increase minimum rates to 20% apr? It's pretty still low for traders. Exchange fee goes up 10 times and some of this increase can be directed to covering our losses.
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July 03, 2019, 03:59:26 PM
 #75

Roughly $13.5 million USD is lost and we have to count cost for that.
I think now it's time to give a concern at margin trading, need to remove margin trading which have poor liquidity like BTC, CLAM.
Not only poloniex, I want to say it is a lesson for all, All exchange should be concern about margin market otherwise user faith will certainly be lost.
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July 03, 2019, 06:32:34 PM
 #76

maybe we should push poloniex to increase minimum rates to 20% apr? It's pretty still low for traders. Exchange fee goes up 10 times and some of this increase can be directed to covering our losses.


hmm, lending rates are directly linked to demand from margin trading. I don't want another sh*tcoin collapse...

Besides, I've removed most of my coins. I only have about 0.1 BTC left at Poloniex. I just don't trust it anymore, and who can?

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 03, 2019, 06:38:39 PM
 #77

hmm, lending rates are directly linked to demand from margin trading. I don't want another sh*tcoin collapse...

Besides, I've removed most of my coins. I only have about 0.1 BTC left at Poloniex. I just don't trust it anymore, and who can?

Has this scandal had a material effect on P2P lending liquidity, or are lenders generally just eating the loss and continuing on as normal? Where can we view statistics about outstanding P2P loans and interest rates? I'd have thought lenders would withdraw funds en masse and this would naturally drive interest rates up.

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July 04, 2019, 06:18:08 AM
Last edit: July 06, 2019, 07:38:37 PM by PrimeNumber7
 #78

Poloniex declaring bankruptcy.

What's wrong with that? It would still be better than keeping the business running as usual as it is. At last, the world would be sure this won't happen again.
There is nothing wrong with this per se, but I would repeat that I do not believe this is a winning case. I would also repeat that I believe the right thing to do is Poloniex to cover the losses, I do not believe they are legally required to do so.

If you did bankrupt Poloniex, I believe you would spend a lot of money out of your own pocket doing so, and any money you do recover would probably not cover any legal expenses you incur.

Does anyone here is a regular poster on Wikipedia, or knows a journalists?
Thanks.
Both Paul Vigna and Steven Russolillo have covered bitcoin recently:

ETA/removed email addresses

There are some writers at Forbes also, but IMO they lack credibility. I don't know any of these people personally.  

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July 04, 2019, 02:20:08 PM
 #79

Poloniex declaring bankruptcy.

What's wrong with that? It would still be better than keeping the business running as usual as it is. At last, the world would be sure this won't happen again.
There is nothing wrong with this per se, but I would repeat that I do not believe this is a winning case. I would also repeat that I believe the right thing to do is Poloniex to cover the losses, I do not believe they are legally required to do so.

If you did bankrupt Poloniex, I believe you would spend a lot of money out of your own pocket doing so, and any money you do recover would probably not cover any legal expenses you incur.
That depends on how Poloniex is set up. If the money of customers' is in custodial accounts, (which i think might be required by law?) then in the case of a bankruptcy, those funds won't/can't be collected, and will be returned to the account holders.

I am curious to know why you believe "haircutting balances with a generalized loss" is illegal in the US. I think this is exactly what happens to depositholders at banks whose deposits exceed FDIC insurance limits when they fail.
Hmm. It was only socialized between other margin traders right?
Still, scum behaviour.

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July 05, 2019, 01:42:50 PM
 #80

hmm, lending rates are directly linked to demand from margin trading. I don't want another sh*tcoin collapse...

Besides, I've removed most of my coins. I only have about 0.1 BTC left at Poloniex. I just don't trust it anymore, and who can?

Has this scandal had a material effect on P2P lending liquidity, or are lenders generally just eating the loss and continuing on as normal? Where can we view statistics about outstanding P2P loans and interest rates? I'd have thought lenders would withdraw funds en masse and this would naturally drive interest rates up.

A 1,800 BTC loss, I've lost myself more than 1 BTC, and I just can't eat it. This is no business as usual. I don't think there are stats available. I guess Poloniex have some, but they're hiding it. We still don't know how many people were affected...

If you did bankrupt Poloniex, I believe you would spend a lot of money out of your own pocket doing so, and any money you do recover would probably not cover any legal expenses you incur.

No, I would not have to pay any legal fee. I've found a lawyer who doesn't ask for any money up front. He just want a share of whatever he may get from Poloniex, but it's a huge share, with a substantial fixed minimum.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 05, 2019, 02:01:31 PM
 #81

In a space filled with utter waste $400 million for this looks like one of the biggest cash bonfires of all.

I visualise Tristan giggling to himself, every morning of every day.....
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July 05, 2019, 07:03:57 PM
 #82

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 link=topic=5151636.msg51702021#msg51702021 date=1562221088

[quote author=countryfree link=topic=5151636.msg51685869#msg51685869 date=1562094838
Does anyone here is a regular poster on Wikipedia, or knows a journalists?
Thanks.
Both Paul Vigna and Steven Russolillo have covered bitcoin recently:

[/quote]

Thanks a lot, but I suggest you edit your post and remove addresses. I noted them. I would not like to have my address on a public forum.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 06, 2019, 07:51:53 PM
 #83

Poloniex declaring bankruptcy.

What's wrong with that? It would still be better than keeping the business running as usual as it is. At last, the world would be sure this won't happen again.
There is nothing wrong with this per se, but I would repeat that I do not believe this is a winning case. I would also repeat that I believe the right thing to do is Poloniex to cover the losses, I do not believe they are legally required to do so.

If you did bankrupt Poloniex, I believe you would spend a lot of money out of your own pocket doing so, and any money you do recover would probably not cover any legal expenses you incur.
That depends on how Poloniex is set up. If the money of customers' is in custodial accounts, (which i think might be required by law?) then in the case of a bankruptcy, those funds won't/can't be collected, and will be returned to the account holders.
I don’t know how their accounts are setup. I don’t believe they have bank accounts with customer money. If they do go bankrupt, the argument will likely be made that account holders have a lien against crypto assets in the amount of their various balances. Someone who has a 1 btc deposit will have a lien on 1 btc worth of their bitcoin and someone with a 1 ltc deposit has a lien on 1 ltc worth of litecoin.


Does anyone here is a regular poster on Wikipedia, or knows a journalists?
Thanks.
Both Paul Vigna and Steven Russolillo have covered bitcoin recently:


Thanks a lot, but I suggest you edit your post and remove addresses. I noted them. I would not like to have my address on a public forum.
I removed their email addresses, however they appear on every article they have written or contributed to.

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July 08, 2019, 02:30:48 PM
 #84

I removed their email addresses, however they appear on every article they have written or contributed to.

I guess they don't mind getting an awful lot of spam...

Now, something important!

I guess we all agree here that Poloniex has been doing a bad thing, here, but everybody can act to tell the world about it.

All you need is a smartphone (Android or Iphone). Just download the Poloniex app, and give them the lowest rating with a comment explaining you cannot trust an exchange which socializes loss among its users. Please do it! It's important that the world knows about it, and it's important that Poloniex (and Circle behind it) sees it's under pressure, so that it must give us our money back.

Thanks in advance to anyone who will help spreading the truth.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 10, 2019, 08:16:13 PM
 #85

I will do it for sure. People must know their heroes.

Thanks, everybody should it. It only takes a few minutes, and it will make the crypto world safer, by telling real facts about the Poloniex exchange.
There's 2k reviews in the app store.

A couple grumpy reviews, especially if they look targeted (which this does.) will change nothing, and perhaps even be removed by google/apple for being fake.

I don’t know how their accounts are setup. I don’t believe they have bank accounts with customer money. If they do go bankrupt, the argument will likely be made that account holders have a lien against crypto assets in the amount of their various balances. Someone who has a 1 btc deposit will have a lien on 1 btc worth of their bitcoin and someone with a 1 ltc deposit has a lien on 1 ltc worth of litecoin.
Yeah, i also think they just store their customer's assets in a cold-storage somewhere. I'm kind of interested to know what the rules and regulations on that are, and to who these funds belong in the end.
Really curious actually.

I just know a couple other exchanges who do have custodial bank accounts, but knowing poloniex i wouldn't expect too much from them, much less so in a bankruptcy case, when i can't even under normal circumstances get my money out.

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July 11, 2019, 08:20:16 AM
 #86


I don’t know how their accounts are setup. I don’t believe they have bank accounts with customer money. If they do go bankrupt, the argument will likely be made that account holders have a lien against crypto assets in the amount of their various balances. Someone who has a 1 btc deposit will have a lien on 1 btc worth of their bitcoin and someone with a 1 ltc deposit has a lien on 1 ltc worth of litecoin.
Yeah, i also think they just store their customer's assets in a cold-storage somewhere. I'm kind of interested to know what the rules and regulations on that are, and to who these funds belong in the end.
Really curious actually.

I just know a couple other exchanges who do have custodial bank accounts, but knowing poloniex i wouldn't expect too much from them, much less so in a bankruptcy case, when i can't even under normal circumstances get my money out.
I don't believe poloniex has any customer money in bank accounts because they only trade crypto, and stablecoins.

Gemini for example has customer USD deposits in custodial bank accounts, however the purpose of this is so FDIC insurance gets passed along to customers in case the bank the deposits are being held in fails. My understanding is if an exchange were to hold customer deposits in an account titled in their corporate name, the corporation would have their deposits insured for only the first $250k of deposits, however an exchange holding USD deposits in a custodial account, each customer of the exchange has their USD deposit insured by FDIC insurance limits.

I don't believe the topic has been litigated in the courts, but I believe poloniex owns all coin in their cold/hot wallets and has a liability in the amount of customer deposits. When a customer deposits 1 BTC, both the assets and liabilities of poloniex will increase by the same amount. The important question is if customer deposits amount to an unsecured liability, or if customers have a generalized lien on poloniex's crypto holdings in the amount of their deposits.

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July 11, 2019, 04:12:45 PM
 #87

I will do it for sure. People must know their heroes.

Thanks, everybody should it. It only takes a few minutes, and it will make the crypto world safer, by telling real facts about the Poloniex exchange.
There's 2k reviews in the app store.

A couple grumpy reviews, especially if they look targeted (which this does.) will change nothing, and perhaps even be removed by google/apple for being fake.

Well, if you have a better idea, don't keep it to yourself.

Poloniex was the only exchange allowing huge margin trading on a sh*tcoin like CLAM, so that was a mistake we can talk about on a review. I guess we published 10 negative reviews so far. We need many more!

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 12, 2019, 02:01:22 AM
 #88

what percentage have they stolen? When will they return the money?

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July 12, 2019, 06:01:05 PM
 #89

what percentage have they stolen? When will they return the money?

1,800 BTC have been seized, about 10% have been returned so far, we don't know what's next...

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 15, 2019, 09:07:32 AM
 #90

Poloniex has added new services.

It's now possible to buy BTC with a credit card, and you can also buy or sell via your bank account. It sounds good but who can trust a company which doesn't care about its clients, allowing huge margin trading which are doomed to fail, and doesn't hesitate to take money from its loyal customers to pay for its negligence?


If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 15, 2019, 09:19:39 AM
 #91

Poloniex has added new services.

It's now possible to buy BTC with a credit card, and you can also buy or sell via your bank account. It sounds good but who can trust a company which doesn't care about its clients, allowing huge margin trading which are doomed to fail, and doesn't hesitate to take money from its loyal customers to pay for its negligence?

I wonder what their game plan is. It's clear the public has little intention of coming back.

I presumed buying Poloniex was something to do with their grand plans to tokenise everything and Poloniex would be the portal to trade them but it seems a vague plan at best. If they ever get around to it no one's going to be there any more.

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July 15, 2019, 10:07:32 AM
 #92

It sounds good but who can trust a company which doesn't care about its clients, allowing huge margin trading which are doomed to fail, and doesn't hesitate to take money from its loyal customers to pay for its negligence?



+ put a gun to your head for your ID, before your tokens will be yours again. Thieves.
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July 15, 2019, 10:10:21 AM
 #93

+ put a gun to your head for your ID, before your tokens will be yours again. Thieves.

Is this for coins that have been left in there for years before it was sold or does it relate to a more recent deposit?

Anyone expecting that to not be the case hasn't been paying attention for a long, long time.

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July 15, 2019, 10:19:27 AM
 #94

+ put a gun to your head for your ID, before your tokens will be yours again. Thieves.

Is this for coins that have been left in there for years before it was sold or does it relate to a more recent deposit?

Anyone expecting that to not be the case hasn't been paying attention for a long, long time.

Talking about Tristan/Polo officially stating that the now sold company, will give fair warning if/when new rules come into play. Well, that didnt happen.....
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July 16, 2019, 05:01:56 PM
 #95

I wonder what their game plan is. It's clear the public has little intention of coming back.

So true! I've lost more than 1BTC, I won't ever forget. And Poloniex can count on me to keep on telling others about what they did (and I'm not alone). they've invested to launch new services, but it would be smarter to pay back what they've taken from their clients.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 18, 2019, 05:02:18 PM
 #96

Bitpoint shows it's a better exchange than Poloniex:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitpoint-reveals-amounts-stolen-pledging-to-reimburse-users-in-crypto

After a theft, it says it will reimburse all its customers.
So you'll know which exchange to use, now...

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 22, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
 #97

Poloniex 's really sinking.

They're down to the 79th position on https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exchanges/

But I'm not surprised. When you steal your customers, nobody wants to do business with you.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 22, 2019, 11:08:03 PM
 #98

Poloniex 's really sinking.

They're down to the 79th position on https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exchanges/

But I'm not surprised. When you steal your customers, nobody wants to do business with you.

Kind of meaningless when there are so many bullshit exchanges out there.

They're only 10 places below Gemini and five below Itbit and they probably believe they're in competition with them rather than one Indonesian 9yr old and his bots.

In other news - https://www.coindesk.com/circle-moves-non-us-poloniex-customers-to-new-bermuda-entity

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July 23, 2019, 02:30:29 PM
 #99


Thanks for info, I'm not reading coindesk that often, but I can't believe what I'm reading:

Quote
“The lack of regulatory frameworks significantly limits what can be offered to individuals and businesses in the U.S.”

So they're moving to Bermuda! Is there a better regulatory framework out there?
I highly doubt it. The only reason to go offshore has always been to escape tax, corporate responsability or consumer protection regulations.

If you think your money isn't safe in Poloniex in America, as I do, it's certainly not going to be any better in Bermuda.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 29, 2019, 09:29:28 AM
 #100

Another interesting topic about Poloniex:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5168204.0

Or just another reason not to use that exchange, and to let it die.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 30, 2019, 07:57:39 AM
 #101

Another interesting topic about Poloniex:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5168204.0

Or just another reason not to use that exchange, and to let it die.

Any update from Poloniex? Have they even said anything since the 10% repayment? Hearing crickets at this point is bad news. It probably means they really were banking on borrowers making deposits to cover the losses. As if that were ever going to happen...

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July 30, 2019, 02:44:47 PM
 #102

Any update from Poloniex? Have they even said anything since the 10% repayment? Hearing crickets at this point is bad news. It probably means they really were banking on borrowers making deposits to cover the losses. As if that were ever going to happen...

Sadly, no. They've taken no money without showing any guilt, and it seems they have no plan to pay back. So please keep this topic active, and spread the world. If you're looking for a safe place to trade, this should not be Poloniex (or Circle).

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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July 30, 2019, 04:12:17 PM
 #103

I put some BTC into lending there in June but it was way past the 6th. By July everything was moved out, it got some gains, but everything went normal. I didn't knew anything like this was happening, and its quite unprofessional of theirs when its clearly their fault for messing with clam.

If i understand correctly you were taken 16% of your total BTC lending amount and from that only 10% was returned back? And you already gave up and turned to litigation?

I though no American could lend anything there after last December, and i did saw an American account this year distinctly missing the lending tab.


In the meantime, what better alternatives are there for lending bitcoin?

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July 30, 2019, 05:09:48 PM
 #104

I put some BTC into lending there in June but it was way past the 6th. By July everything was moved out, it got some gains, but everything went normal.

In the meantime, what better alternatives are there for lending bitcoin?

You were lucky, I know some guys that deposited after the balance deduction, and still got robbed.

You can still lend on Bitfinex, Liquid, Celcius, Nexo...

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July 31, 2019, 09:31:56 AM
 #105

I put some BTC into lending there in June but it was way past the 6th. By July everything was moved out, it got some gains, but everything went normal. I didn't knew anything like this was happening, and its quite unprofessional of theirs when its clearly their fault for messing with clam.

If i understand correctly you were taken 16% of your total BTC lending amount and from that only 10% was returned back? And you already gave up and turned to litigation?

I though no American could lend anything there after last December, and i did saw an American account this year distinctly missing the lending tab.


In the meantime, what better alternatives are there for lending bitcoin?

I suggest you give up lending if you're not following the news. You began right after Poloniex stole its customers, at the very moment everybody was leaving, it was a very risky move.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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August 03, 2019, 06:52:02 PM
 #106

I put some BTC into lending there in June but it was way past the 6th. By July everything was moved out, it got some gains, but everything went normal.

In the meantime, what better alternatives are there for lending bitcoin?

You were lucky, I know some guys that deposited after the balance deduction, and still got robbed.

You can still lend on Bitfinex, Liquid, Celcius, Nexo...

Bitfinex doesn’t allow US customers. I believe you can lend on all the other platforms you mentioned.

If you lend on any platform, you run the risk of the loan not being repaid. Most exchanges will not guarantee repayment and disclose that traders may have insufficient equity to cover the loan plus interest.

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August 03, 2019, 11:26:12 PM
 #107

I put some BTC into lending there in June but it was way past the 6th. By July everything was moved out, it got some gains, but everything went normal.

In the meantime, what better alternatives are there for lending bitcoin?

You were lucky, I know some guys that deposited after the balance deduction, and still got robbed.

You can still lend on Bitfinex, Liquid, Celcius, Nexo...

Bitfinex doesn’t allow US customers. I believe you can lend on all the other platforms you mentioned.

neither of them are from the USA so they're fine. unless things have changed recently, you don't need KYC to do margin lending on bitfinex anyway so i'm sure americans are still sneaking by with VPN.

i would say bitfinex is the only lending market with thick enough order books to justify the default risk. lending anywhere else is straight up crazy. just look at what happened at poloniex---and the other markets are even thinner than polo.

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August 04, 2019, 04:35:52 PM
 #108

I put some BTC into lending there in June but it was way past the 6th. By July everything was moved out, it got some gains, but everything went normal.

In the meantime, what better alternatives are there for lending bitcoin?

You were lucky, I know some guys that deposited after the balance deduction, and still got robbed.

You can still lend on Bitfinex, Liquid, Celcius, Nexo...

Bitfinex doesn’t allow US customers. I believe you can lend on all the other platforms you mentioned.

neither of them are from the USA so they're fine. unless things have changed recently, you don't need KYC to do margin lending on bitfinex anyway so i'm sure americans are still sneaking by with VPN.

i would say bitfinex is the only lending market with thick enough order books to justify the default risk. lending anywhere else is straight up crazy. just look at what happened at poloniex---and the other markets are even thinner than polo.

Being a victim here, I should not believe in lending any longer, but I still believe it could work if exchanges were better managed. I mean that there should be no margin trading on small sh*tcoins, that in all cases margin trading should be volume-limited, and that there should be circuit breakers, like on the stock market, where all trading can come to a halt in case of excessive volatility.

Frankly, a lot could be done to make trading and lending much safer that now.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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August 08, 2019, 09:40:43 AM
 #109

Poloniex is rated at TrustPilot. Usually, I don't give much credit to those ratings, but everything there is true.

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/poloniex.com

Please add your rating if you're another victim like me.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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August 10, 2019, 03:29:44 AM
 #110

Well I too was a victim of this debacle at Poloniex.  Have only been re-imbursed 10% so far and am still scratching my head as to how the fuck a company like Circle is still running Poloniex as shadily as it ran before the Circle acquisition.

Why isn't there is class action lawsuit yet?
https://www.theblockcrypto.com/2019/06/06/poloniex-could-leave-itself-open-to-legal-threats-by-socializing-1800-btc-loss/

Perhaps a tweet storm to the following may stir up something?
https://twitter.com/jerallaire
https://twitter.com/psneville
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August 11, 2019, 09:58:26 PM
 #111

Well I too was a victim of this debacle at Poloniex.  Have only been re-imbursed 10% so far and am still scratching my head as to how the fuck a company like Circle is still running Poloniex as shadily as it ran before the Circle acquisition.

Why isn't there is class action lawsuit yet?
https://www.theblockcrypto.com/2019/06/06/poloniex-could-leave-itself-open-to-legal-threats-by-socializing-1800-btc-loss/

Perhaps a tweet storm to the following may stir up something?
https://twitter.com/jerallaire
https://twitter.com/psneville

Thanks for joining this topic.

A class action would be nearly impossible because of Poloniex's terms. Litigation is coming, but it's really expensive. Only those who have lost a lot will do it. For the others like me, the best option remains to damage even more this exchange's reputation.

Campaign on Twitter are being done, see the "Poloniex Lending Theft"  group on Telegram to find out the schedule.


If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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August 12, 2019, 04:29:04 AM
 #112

Thanks for your efforts and for making this thread. Like you, my losses are also not enough to warrant spending legal costs, however I would be happy Huh to be part of a group of creditors waiting in line to be paid back my own money. Couldn't find the telegram group - post a link?

Maybe a #hashtag campaign will stir up some action - #poloniextheft #poloniexcrooks #poloniexscam (my suggestions).

You can share my tweet too across any relevant groups: https://twitter.com/KryptoRevivaL/status/1160769662533029888
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August 12, 2019, 08:49:01 PM
 #113

Couldn't find the telegram group - post a link?

The link is on this topic already, don't have the time to look as there's an update.

Or kind of. It's more of a joke.

I've just received an email from Poloniex, and it says that all impacted lenders (that's people like me who were robbed of their savings) will be credited their Poloniex trading fees until their losses are fully recovered.

Free trading!

Well, since the incident, I've stopped all trading and lending at Poloniex and I guess many others did the same thing. I'm not about to go back, and frankly this offer is absolutely ridiculous. I've lost more than one BTC, and trading fee is 0.25% at Poloniex. I would have to trade for years to be credited the same amount Poloniex has stolen from my account.

Sorry guys, but this is no solution.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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August 13, 2019, 07:08:30 AM
 #114

Their latest email update is a joke indeed.   Credit us back with our own trading fees?!  What a fucking farse! Why not PAY US BACK WITH THE MILLIONS YOU MAKE IN TRADING FEES YOU CROOKS?
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August 13, 2019, 01:48:13 PM
 #115

The more I think of it, the more I find it ridiculous.

Because they must have thought about it. Made their own calculations, and they should have seen that the money they stole was not business as usual to theirs victims who have all withdrawn all their coins from this damned exchange.

They made an announce, but I'm sure they know it would not cost them a dime, as nobody wants to trade with them any longer.

They shall pay back, then we'll talk.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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August 14, 2019, 01:57:11 PM
 #116

Sad news: the media are against us!

I created a new topic about this subject:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5175519.0

Both Coindesk and Cointelegraph are giving fake news about Poloniex paying back what it stole. It's simply not true.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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August 19, 2019, 08:37:51 PM
 #117

Poloniex's still alive, so is this topic!
But I promise to close this topic is Poloniex is giving back everything it owes us.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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August 20, 2019, 08:21:02 AM
 #118

Poloniex's still alive, so is this topic!
But I promise to close this topic is Poloniex is giving back everything it owes us.
Did you mean that you will close this topic if they are giving back that they owe its users, may be they started the procedure to return the customer funds and with time they might complete the procedure, did you contact their customer service, i know they have a shitty customer care and it will take a longer time to get any response from them but you can wait for their response, i stopped visiting them a long time back as there are other options to trade without issue.

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August 20, 2019, 12:29:08 PM
 #119

Poloniex's still alive, so is this topic!
But I promise to close this topic is Poloniex is giving back everything it owes us.

I think you shouldn't close it because the doer did the deed and it needs to be buried somewhere in the ground for anyone who tries to find it any time later in future. I also had some issues with poloniex, I deposited BTC0.5 over there. Till then, they allowed me small withdrawals ranging between BTC0.01-0.05 but there came their stupid rule of 'Get your KYC done before you can withdraw more than BTC0.02xx'

It was extremely shocking because I was about to sell my BTC and trusted them that I'll be able to get my BTC whenever I'll need and that tragedy happened. It took me 2 weeks before they carried out my KYC and allowed me to withdraw my coins.

 
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August 20, 2019, 08:30:19 PM
 #120

did you contact their customer service

Of course I did, but creating this topic with dozens of people commenting it may have been more useful.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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August 21, 2019, 02:17:51 PM
 #121

did you contact their customer service

Of course I did, but creating this topic with dozens of people commenting it may have been more useful.


I don't think of it as helpful until they respond.
busoni (Owner of Poloniex) seems to be the only guy from Poloniex who was available here till Feb 2018, so I can't ask you to contact him for any response here and if nobody from other party can respond you, how can you expect forum to play any role except give them red trust. You can stop a few people from using their exchange but not all.

 
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August 21, 2019, 02:23:00 PM
 #122

did you contact their customer service

Of course I did, but creating this topic with dozens of people commenting it may have been more useful.


I don't think of it as helpful until they respond.
busoni (Owner of Poloniex) seems to be the only guy from Poloniex who was available here till Feb 2018, so I can't ask you to contact him for any response here and if nobody from other party can respond you, how can you expect forum to play any role except give them red trust. You can stop a few people from using their exchange but not all.
He is no longer the owner of Poloniex and hasn’t been for quite some time now. Circle purchased Poloniex early last year.

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August 25, 2019, 04:02:46 PM
 #123

did you contact their customer service

Of course I did, but creating this topic with dozens of people commenting it may have been more useful.


I don't think of it as helpful until they respond.
busoni (Owner of Poloniex) seems to be the only guy from Poloniex who was available here till Feb 2018, so I can't ask you to contact him for any response here and if nobody from other party can respond you, how can you expect forum to play any role except give them red trust. You can stop a few people from using their exchange but not all.
He is no longer the owner of Poloniex and hasn’t been for quite some time now. Circle purchased Poloniex early last year.

Yes, and the man's living the good life, now.

Somehow, I think the lending loss wouldn't have happened if Busoni would have been in charge. I guess he wouldn't have allowed huge margin trading on such a small altcoin. The man had a better understanding of cryptos than Circle...

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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August 25, 2019, 04:10:49 PM
 #124

did you contact their customer service

Of course I did, but creating this topic with dozens of people commenting it may have been more useful.


I don't think of it as helpful until they respond.
busoni (Owner of Poloniex) seems to be the only guy from Poloniex who was available here till Feb 2018, so I can't ask you to contact him for any response here and if nobody from other party can respond you, how can you expect forum to play any role except give them red trust. You can stop a few people from using their exchange but not all.
He is no longer the owner of Poloniex and hasn’t been for quite some time now. Circle purchased Poloniex early last year.

Yes, and the man's living the good life, now.

Somehow, I think the lending loss wouldn't have happened if Busoni would have been in charge. I guess he wouldn't have allowed huge margin trading on such a small altcoin. The man had a better understanding of cryptos than Circle...


This seem to be an issue with Poloniex and with new ownership. This doesn't affect the Bitfinex lending as they are independent platform.
Poloniex did have a large make over with the change of ownership but they still failed to gain attentions form the large traders on a competitive market with low fees and better supports. There are many ways of exchanging coins and people with much of hacking news everyday are moving towards dex and P2P exchanges.

 
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PrimeNumber7
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August 25, 2019, 06:53:36 PM
 #125

did you contact their customer service

Of course I did, but creating this topic with dozens of people commenting it may have been more useful.


I don't think of it as helpful until they respond.
busoni (Owner of Poloniex) seems to be the only guy from Poloniex who was available here till Feb 2018, so I can't ask you to contact him for any response here and if nobody from other party can respond you, how can you expect forum to play any role except give them red trust. You can stop a few people from using their exchange but not all.
He is no longer the owner of Poloniex and hasn’t been for quite some time now. Circle purchased Poloniex early last year.

Yes, and the man's living the good life, now.

Somehow, I think the lending loss wouldn't have happened if Busoni would have been in charge. I guess he wouldn't have allowed huge margin trading on such a small altcoin. The man had a better understanding of cryptos than Circle...

I don't know if there would have been losses if he was still in charge. There was margin trading going back years when he was running Poloniex. Poloniex has long has a very small market share of overall trading volumes, so having a large amount of margin loans outstanding for one coin is usually not a huge deal because of large trading volumes on other exchanges, and the ability of the market as a whole to absorb liquidations. What happened with clams is that no other reputable exchange is trading clams, so poloniex had a nearly 100% market share of volumes, which means they actually needed to monitor outstanding margin loans as a factor of trading volumes and orderbook liquidity.

I don't know when margin trading started on Poloniex, but if it was before ownership was sold to Circle, and there were not risk monitoring systems in place that were sounding off alarm bells well before the amount of margin loans for clams were outstanding, I would suspect he didn't have anything in place to stop the platform from allowing additional margin loans on these types of coin.

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August 26, 2019, 05:14:07 PM
 #126

An article about the Poloniex incident was just posted by a user at our web site: https://creditstocks.com/poloniex-scam-alert/
Spread the word, if you agree.
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August 26, 2019, 05:16:32 PM
Merited by PrimeNumber7 (1)
 #127

did you contact their customer service

Of course I did, but creating this topic with dozens of people commenting it may have been more useful.


I don't think of it as helpful until they respond.
busoni (Owner of Poloniex) seems to be the only guy from Poloniex who was available here till Feb 2018, so I can't ask you to contact him for any response here and if nobody from other party can respond you, how can you expect forum to play any role except give them red trust. You can stop a few people from using their exchange but not all.
He is no longer the owner of Poloniex and hasn’t been for quite some time now. Circle purchased Poloniex early last year.

Yes, and the man's living the good life, now.

Somehow, I think the lending loss wouldn't have happened if Busoni would have been in charge. I guess he wouldn't have allowed huge margin trading on such a small altcoin. The man had a better understanding of cryptos than Circle...

There's some unsolved problem margin trading in poloniex even since 2017 , so i think it's been exist when busoni in charge , wouldn't make any difference now.

I personally left poloniex in 2018 after they ignored all my emails regarding the deposit and withdrawal problem , takes too much time to respond on it causing me in quite huge loss due that time I was doing arbitrage trade. You know how it feels ... sucks. Although I respect how they didn't faking their trading volume,  I hate how they threat customer in such way. Shame on poloniex with this socializing 1,800 btc loss.

.WOLF.BET.
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countryfree
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August 27, 2019, 08:54:31 AM
 #128

An article about the Poloniex incident was just posted by a user at our web site: https://creditstocks.com/poloniex-scam-alert/
Spread the word, if you agree.

Thanks a lot for your support.
I appreciate it.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
countryfree
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September 03, 2019, 09:33:06 AM
 #129

To get the latest news about the issue, check the "Poloniex Lending Theft" group on Telegram.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
countryfree
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September 06, 2019, 08:04:08 PM
 #130

Poloniex sent me (and to all other victims) the following email:

Quote
Dear Poloniex Customer,

We committed to fully reimburse all losses incurred on our platform due to a June 2019 margin incident.

We are pleased to share that today you have received your first trading fee reimbursement credit. This lump sum reimburses 100% of trading fees assessed from June 6th to September 5th. Moving forward, you will continue receiving daily trading fee credits until all losses have been reimbursed.

Additionally, starting as soon as possible, we will begin reimbursing 100% of all lending fees.

Thank you very much for your patience as we continue to work to resolve this incident. In addition to our commitment to making you whole, we remain dedicated to earning back your trust, which we know will take time and further investment.

Should you have any additional questions, please do not hesitate to reach our Support Team here.

Sincerely,

Team Poloniex

They haven't forgotten, neither do I!
But their answer is quite insulting.

I've received a credit of less than 0.00001... BTC

This is ridiculous when I've lost more than 1 BTC...

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
almightyruler
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September 06, 2019, 11:54:10 PM
 #131

Bit surprised to see the "Lend" link appears next to my CLAM balance on Poloniex. It also appears for BTS, FCT and MAID.

https://medium.com/circle-trader/overview-of-btc-margin-lending-pool-losses-a2f0905aaa56

"To protect lenders, we are removing margin trading for 4 assets: BTS, CLAM, FCT, and MAID. In order for margin liquidations to process in an orderly manner, the market must have sufficient liquidity, and these tokens currently lack that liquidity. We will continue to monitor them and may reinstate margin trading for them in the future. We have communicated directly with all margin lenders in these markets."

Does anyone know when margin trading was reinstated for those four cryptocurrencies? Is there anything official about this?
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September 07, 2019, 09:07:27 PM
 #132

Quote
Dear Poloniex Customer,

We committed to fully reimburse all losses incurred on our platform due to a June 2019 margin incident.

We are pleased to share that today you have received your first trading fee reimbursement credit. This lump sum reimburses 100% of trading fees assessed from June 6th to September 5th. Moving forward, you will continue receiving daily trading fee credits until all losses have been reimbursed.

Add insult to injury, why don't you? Roll Eyes

Bit surprised to see the "Lend" link appears next to my CLAM balance on Poloniex. It also appears for BTS, FCT and MAID.

Does anyone know when margin trading was reinstated for those four cryptocurrencies? Is there anything official about this?

Have you actually tried to lend them or take margin positions in those markets? I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't functioning. Poloniex is known for weird glitches and a sloppy front end.

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September 09, 2019, 02:48:48 AM
 #133

Bit surprised to see the "Lend" link appears next to my CLAM balance on Poloniex. It also appears for BTS, FCT and MAID.

Does anyone know when margin trading was reinstated for those four cryptocurrencies? Is there anything official about this?

Have you actually tried to lend them or take margin positions in those markets? I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't functioning. Poloniex is known for weird glitches and a sloppy front end.

I'm not game to actually try to use their lending system, but I don't recall seeing the Lend link next to my CLAM balance since the "incident". My memory may have failed, though.

If they are indeed lending CLAM again it could be potentially risky, since CLAM has been in maintenance for around a month... no deposits or withdrawals. It's essentially a virtual token at the moment.
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September 09, 2019, 09:20:28 AM
 #134

I'm not game to actually try to use their lending system, but I don't recall seeing the Lend link next to my CLAM balance since the "incident". My memory may have failed, though.

If they are indeed lending CLAM again it could be potentially risky, since CLAM has been in maintenance for around a month... no deposits or withdrawals. It's essentially a virtual token at the moment.

So Poloniex could be even worse that I thought!
I sure don't want to test it, but if they have reinstated CLAM lending, they're mad. I wish I had discovered their madness before June...

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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October 04, 2019, 05:43:09 PM
 #135

120 days passed from the day Poloniex stole 1800 BTC from it's customers to cover it's losses incurred in CLAM price crashes caused directly by it's incompetence and poor management. They announced that they are "committed to making lenders whole, come hell or high water" but I received only one 10% repayment 112 days ago and not a single satoshi after that. Beware of Poloniex!
countryfree
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October 06, 2019, 10:26:42 AM
 #136

4 months!
It was the 6th of June that Poloniex stole 1800 BTC them its customers.
This exchange still owes them more than 89% of that sum.
I will update this topic at least once a month to tell the world about it.

At least, the message is clear to all holders and investors, stay away from Poloniex.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
milewilda
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October 06, 2019, 11:28:56 AM
 #137

4 months!
It was the 6th of June that Poloniex stole 1800 BTC them its customers.
This exchange still owes them more than 89% of that sum.
I will update this topic at least once a month to tell the world about it.

At least, the message is clear to all holders and investors, stay away from Poloniex.
I cant still believe that there still people who do believe out into this exchange?
Following up https://medium.com/circle-trader and https://twitter.com/poloniex if ever they would post out some updates.
I would keep an eye to this thread to see on what you've got.

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countryfree
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October 07, 2019, 06:30:18 PM
 #138

4 months!
It was the 6th of June that Poloniex stole 1800 BTC them its customers.
This exchange still owes them more than 89% of that sum.
I will update this topic at least once a month to tell the world about it.

At least, the message is clear to all holders and investors, stay away from Poloniex.
I cant still believe that there still people who do believe out into this exchange?
Following up https://medium.com/circle-trader and https://twitter.com/poloniex if ever they would post out some updates.
I would keep an eye to this thread to see on what you've got.

Thanks for your support.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.

If you want to trade, I recommend you use Bitfinex.
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