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Author Topic: Petition to Nationalize Banks  (Read 3257 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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November 11, 2011, 04:00:29 PM
 #21

Why the hell would VISA do that.  If I was a shareholder I would move for the CEO to arrested for violating fudiciary duty.

Hey we have this ultra profitable near global monopoly with massive transaction volumes and no real competitors ...

Lets scrap all that and move to a network when anyone can be out competitor and our gross profit margins fall 90%+.
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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November 11, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
 #22

Why the hell would VISA do that.  If I was a shareholder I would move for the CEO to arrested for violating fudiciary duty.

Hey we have this ultra profitable near global monopoly with massive transaction volumes and no real competitors ...

Lets scrap all that and move to a network when anyone can be out competitor and our gross profit margins fall 90%+.

If VISA is unable to compete with Bitcoin based money processors, then the CEO would be in violation of fiduciary duty for not remaining competitive. Besides, who knows where the global economy will be in ten years? Complete transparency of all financial transactions may become the only thing that saves us from the ravages of corporate/political corruption. Bitcoin can provide that.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
DeathAndTaxes
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November 11, 2011, 05:04:33 PM
 #23

Why the hell would VISA do that.  If I was a shareholder I would move for the CEO to arrested for violating fudiciary duty.

Hey we have this ultra profitable near global monopoly with massive transaction volumes and no real competitors ...

Lets scrap all that and move to a network when anyone can be out competitor and our gross profit margins fall 90%+.

If VISA is unable to compete with Bitcoin based money processors, then the CEO would be in violation of fiduciary duty for not remaining competitive. Besides, who knows where the global economy will be in ten years? Complete transparency of all financial transactions may become the only thing that saves us from the ravages of corporate/political corruption. Bitcoin can provide that.

If your time horizon is 10 years you are going to be disappointed.  I say maybe if Bitcoin is very lucky in 20 years it might have Paypal like acceptance (which is still only about 2% of VISA transaction volume).  To put it into perspective Bittorrent (probably the most successful p2p application ever) is about 10 years old and only a tiny fraction of the world uses it.
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November 11, 2011, 05:08:53 PM
 #24

If your time horizon is 10 years you are going to be disappointed.  I say maybe if Bitcoin is very lucky in 20 years it might have Paypal like acceptance (which is still only about 2% of VISA transaction volume).  To put it into perspective Bittorrent (probably the most successful p2p application ever) is about 10 years old and only a tiny fraction of the world uses it.

Maybe so, but do you notice that everything is going faster every day? Population is growing geometrically. Communication technology is growing exponentially. Social changes are happening faster. Timelines are shrinking. I don't think ten years is unrealistic at all.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 11, 2011, 05:12:32 PM
 #25

Bookmarked.  We will see in 10 years.  My guess is that 99% of population won't be using Bitcoin in 10 years.  Still if 1% is it would be a massive win for Bitcoin (although not being a significant threat to VISA).
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November 12, 2011, 11:47:04 AM
 #26

Bookmarked.  We will see in 10 years.  My guess is that 99% of population won't be using Bitcoin in 10 years.  Still if 1% is it would be a massive win for Bitcoin (although not being a significant threat to VISA).

I'd wager 99% of the Bitcoin users available now won't be using it in ten years/
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November 12, 2011, 01:37:25 PM
 #27

Bookmarked.  We will see in 10 years.  My guess is that 99% of population won't be using Bitcoin in 10 years.  Still if 1% is it would be a massive win for Bitcoin (although not being a significant threat to VISA).

I'd wager 99% of the Bitcoin users available now won't be using it in ten years/

Easy to say, but how would you define that wager?  You can't identify how many use it now, you would have to make guesses.  How many users do you think there are?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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November 12, 2011, 09:08:05 PM
 #28

There should be no monopoly on money creation. Bring all comers. Let the market decide. If there's fraud, prosecute otherwise let everybody decide what they want to use.

My guess would be silver, gold and some P2P currency will become prominent. But I'd be just guessing. I personally would like to see an energy currency of some sort (oil, NG, food).

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November 13, 2011, 12:05:06 AM
 #29

There should be no monopoly on money creation. Bring all comers. Let the market decide. If there's fraud, prosecute otherwise let everybody decide what they want to use.

My guess would be silver, gold and some P2P currency will become prominent. But I'd be just guessing. I personally would like to see an energy currency of some sort (oil, NG, food).

Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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November 13, 2011, 12:29:56 AM
 #30


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Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?

"The only security men can have for their political liberty, consists in keeping their money in their own pockets".
Lysander Spooner
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November 14, 2011, 09:55:08 AM
 #31

US Government did partially or mostly nationalize some banks during the bailout. They still own 73% of Ally Bank.
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November 14, 2011, 04:57:59 PM
 #32

US Government did partially or mostly nationalize some banks during the bailout. They still own 73% of Ally Bank.
I did not know this. I am absolutely dumbfounded yet not surprised.
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November 14, 2011, 05:03:37 PM
 #33


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Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
ALPHA.
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November 14, 2011, 05:06:10 PM
 #34


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Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

Private != Free market

Crony state-enabled capitalism is not properly incentivized services and goods. Sub-contracting a state monopoly is not the free market at work.
FredericBastiat
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November 14, 2011, 05:06:42 PM
 #35

There should be no monopoly on money creation. Bring all comers. Let the market decide. If there's fraud, prosecute otherwise let everybody decide what they want to use.

My guess would be silver, gold and some P2P currency will become prominent. But I'd be just guessing. I personally would like to see an energy currency of some sort (oil, NG, food).

Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Please elaborate on how a voluntary money material system would starve and freeze anybody. I mean in a direct sense of the word. Why would any market of free people contracting for goods and services (or monetary equivalents) in a uncoercive way result in the death or starvation of anybody?

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BitMagic
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November 14, 2011, 08:54:52 PM
 #36


Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

Private != Free market

Crony state-enabled capitalism is not properly incentivized services and goods. Sub-contracting a state monopoly is not the free market at work.

Excuses. I know you think "but it's not perfect, that's why it doesn't work" is your answer to everything (i.e. redefine it every time to make sure counter examples don't apply), but this is reality. You have your examples, and they work great, whether you like it or not.

Nothing in life is a closed system. And unless you want to float high above the level of practice all day, you have to come down and try stuff in real life. This happened, and you can't deny it's failure because it wasn't "perfect".

But you will, because you are completely inept at any serious attempt at arguing a point. Seriously, go away, Atlas.

Please give me your money, because I am a shameless libertarian elite who deserves your money more than you do: 9Hkao8U82WWDp6SQGn4k7ad9gT1LWeL5s3
ALPHA.
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November 14, 2011, 09:12:04 PM
 #37


Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

Private != Free market

Crony state-enabled capitalism is not properly incentivized services and goods. Sub-contracting a state monopoly is not the free market at work.

Excuses. I know you think "but it's not perfect, that's why it doesn't work" is your answer to everything (i.e. redefine it every time to make sure counter examples don't apply), but this is reality. You have your examples, and they work great, whether you like it or not.

Nothing in life is a closed system. And unless you want to float high above the level of practice all day, you have to come down and try stuff in real life. This happened, and you can't deny it's failure because it wasn't "perfect".

But you will, because you are completely inept at any serious attempt at arguing a point. Seriously, go away, Atlas.

Why are they excuses? They sucked because the state was involved. There is no doubt about it.

You're no better, my friend. You have yet to prove why genuinely free services are worse besides providing pure myths.

"Profit is exploitation!"

No, theft is exploitation. Fraud is exploitation. Making money while providing equitable return is not exploitation.
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November 14, 2011, 10:13:55 PM
 #38

...snip...

"Profit is exploitation!"

No, theft is exploitation. Fraud is exploitation. Making money while providing equitable return is not exploitation.

The problem is that banks are guaranteed so they take the profits when they bet right and we take the losses when they bet wrong.

I don't think nationalisation could remotely help this problem but it has to be said that bank profits which derive from having the taxpayer guarantee are exploitation.

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November 14, 2011, 10:29:32 PM
 #39


Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

I see your wikipedia.org article and raise you a author John Perkins http://www.johnperkins.org/ author of "confession of a economic hit man"

His book is really great and I suggest everyone read it. My socialist college professor made this book assigned reading in her English class. It is one of the books that made me realize that the "state is never moral".

End The State?

"The only security men can have for their political liberty, consists in keeping their money in their own pockets".
Lysander Spooner
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November 14, 2011, 10:49:05 PM
 #40


Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

I see your wikipedia.org article and raise you a author John Perkins http://www.johnperkins.org/ author of "confession of a economic hit man"

His book is really great and I suggest everyone read it. My socialist college professor made this book assigned reading in her English class. It is one of the books that made me realize that the "state is never moral".

End The State?

You can't end the state.  The most you can hope for is to dissolve your own state and then someone else's state will invade and be your new masters.

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