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Author Topic: Universal Basic Income  (Read 440 times)
iamhungry
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June 26, 2019, 12:14:55 AM
 #21

The real question is, Will you be forced by government to accept UBI.

Anybody who takes pride in his work, or in the fact that he IS working, wouldn't want to accept UBI.

Cool

You'd say no to it if everyone else was collecting it? No point refusing it there...

Isn't your honor worth more than money to you?    Cool

How does it incur a loss of honor? I'll take yours if you don't want it  Wink
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June 26, 2019, 12:28:21 AM
 #22

The real question is, Will you be forced by government to accept UBI.

Anybody who takes pride in his work, or in the fact that he IS working, wouldn't want to accept UBI.

Cool

You'd say no to it if everyone else was collecting it? No point refusing it there...

Isn't your honor worth more than money to you?    Cool

How does it incur a loss of honor? I'll take yours if you don't want it  Wink

Hey. It's great winning a little at the lottery sometimes. But living free off some UBI isn't what we were made for.

Have you been working your butt off for a whole bunch of years? Are you tired? Use the UBI for a while to get rested up. But stand like a man and pull your own weight, earning your own money.

It's you welfare leaches that are wrecking the economic system for us all. Get out there and work for what you get.

If they don't make robots that can work for free, UBI will fail. Make the robots first, so we can see that UBI can succeed. Right now, there aren't near enough robots in near enough fields to support us for free. UBI will fail, and you UBI users will fail right along with it.

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iamhungry
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June 26, 2019, 12:47:35 AM
 #23

The real question is, Will you be forced by government to accept UBI.

Anybody who takes pride in his work, or in the fact that he IS working, wouldn't want to accept UBI.

Cool

You'd say no to it if everyone else was collecting it? No point refusing it there...

Isn't your honor worth more than money to you?    Cool

How does it incur a loss of honor? I'll take yours if you don't want it  Wink

Hey. It's great winning a little at the lottery sometimes. But living free off some UBI isn't what we were made for.

Have you been working your butt off for a whole bunch of years? Are you tired? Use the UBI for a while to get rested up. But stand like a man and pull your own weight, earning your own money.

It's you welfare leaches that are wrecking the economic system for us all. Get out there and work for what you get.

If they don't make robots that can work for free, UBI will fail. Make the robots first, so we can see that UBI can succeed. Right now, there aren't near enough robots in near enough fields to support us for free. UBI will fail, and you UBI users will fail right along with it.

Cool

For example, let's say I'm born into wealth, should I waste my life working for no reason? What's wrong with taking what is freely given? There is a large degree of self righteousness in what you've written
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June 26, 2019, 12:59:34 AM
 #24


For example, let's say I'm born into wealth, should I waste my life working for no reason? What's wrong with taking what is freely given? There is a large degree of self righteousness in what you've written

UBI is only freely given temporarily.

When all the farmers sit back and live on their UBI, where does anybody get food from? If only 1 or 2 farmers keep on farming because they enjoy it, the price of food will skyrocket. Your UBI check won't be enough to cover the cost. Besides, there won't be enough food to go around, anyway. Same with everything else.

Maybe you can eat the check your UBI is printed on. But more than likely, it will be electronic, until the banks and Internet fail because all the bankers and Internet people are living free on their UBI.

The only way UBI might succeed is if we have enough automation... robots to do everything for us. But the world isn't far enough along into robotics to even think of UBI.

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iamhungry
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June 26, 2019, 01:09:38 AM
 #25


For example, let's say I'm born into wealth, should I waste my life working for no reason? What's wrong with taking what is freely given? There is a large degree of self righteousness in what you've written

UBI is only freely given temporarily.

When all the farmers sit back and live on their UBI, where does anybody get food from? If only 1 or 2 farmers keep on farming because they enjoy it, the price of food will skyrocket. Your UBI check won't be enough to cover the cost. Besides, there won't be enough food to go around, anyway. Same with everything else.

Maybe you can eat the check your UBI is printed on. But more than likely, it will be electronic, until the banks and Internet fail because all the bankers and Internet people are living free on their UBI.

The only way UBI might succeed is if we have enough automation... robots to do everything for us. But the world isn't far enough along into robotics to even think of UBI.

Cool

Then, what do you think about UBI below the poverty line?
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June 26, 2019, 01:15:59 AM
 #26


For example, let's say I'm born into wealth, should I waste my life working for no reason? What's wrong with taking what is freely given? There is a large degree of self righteousness in what you've written

UBI is only freely given temporarily.

When all the farmers sit back and live on their UBI, where does anybody get food from? If only 1 or 2 farmers keep on farming because they enjoy it, the price of food will skyrocket. Your UBI check won't be enough to cover the cost. Besides, there won't be enough food to go around, anyway. Same with everything else.

Maybe you can eat the check your UBI is printed on. But more than likely, it will be electronic, until the banks and Internet fail because all the bankers and Internet people are living free on their UBI.

The only way UBI might succeed is if we have enough automation... robots to do everything for us. But the world isn't far enough along into robotics to even think of UBI.

Cool

Then, what do you think about UBI below the poverty line?

The wealthy eat food. Without farmers, the wealthy will be below the poverty line, because they can't buy food when everybody is getting enough money from their UBI.

You might feel sorry for the below-the-poverty-line wealthy guy. You might teach him how to grow a garden... to get blisters and callouses from using a hoe. So, what about UBI below the poverty line?

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June 27, 2019, 09:07:32 AM
 #27

My point really in starting the thread was based on my assumption that the next wave of automation will make part of the population effectively unemployable, particularly with the onward march of AI. Will a large part of the population be unemployable? The majority part? Waves of automation in the past have just moved job opportunities  to new sectors, agriculture -> industrial/manufacturing -> service sector. After the the service sector starts to be automated (smart assistants / robots etc), and also smart contracts (hello Ethereum!) - then what is left? If there is nowhere or only a limited space where humans can perform better than AI/computers, then it leaves a part of the populace absolutely disenfranchised.

So I suppose I could have phrased the question better. Really I am asking that if UBI is not the solution to having a lot of effectively unemployable people, then what alternatives are there? Doing nothing seems like a really bad decision.

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June 27, 2019, 08:45:30 PM
 #28

Take Chicago, for instance. If the average guy and his family in downtown Chicago are hungry, what do they do? Go to the store and by some food. What do they do if they don't have money? Get a job or, get on welfare or, rob the store. You can't easily grow an effective garden from the 7th story in a high-rise apartment complex.

The family might be able to figure out a way to move to a couple acres in the country and grow their own food. But they still have to pay property tax, or fight county tax assessors.

All AI might do is make the whole country a slave depot, and everyone in it slaves, just so that people can live. It doesn't really give anyone his own land where he is free to raise his family and grow his own food, and run a little business to trade his wares for the wares of other people.

If robotics ever got to the point where it could supply everything for everybody for free, without demanding anything back from them, it would still be a slave oriented community, even though the slaves would have their every desire fulfilled by the robots. Many people would like this for a while. But after some time, there would be many of them who would like to strike off on their own and make a free life for themselves, living off the land.

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June 28, 2019, 08:20:51 AM
 #29

If robotics ever got to the point where it could supply everything for everybody for free, without demanding anything back from them, it would still be a slave oriented community, even though the slaves would have their every desire fulfilled by the robots. Many people would like this for a while. But after some time, there would be many of them who would like to strike off on their own and make a free life for themselves, living off the land.

Cool

I take the point. If everything is given for free then there is no autonomy and no individual meaning. So if (when?) we reach a point where everything is free, then it may improve quality of life in purely material terms, but the cost is the loss of the freedom that comes from individuals being responsible for their own existence. So a full UBI that provides 100% of material needs is also doing nothing to solve the deeper problem that is the loss of the freedom, autonomy and accountability that is such a big part of what it is to be human.

I'm still not sure what the answer is, but the discussion is widening my perspective, which is always a good thing.

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June 28, 2019, 03:12:51 PM
 #30

If robotics ever got to the point where it could supply everything for everybody for free, without demanding anything back from them, it would still be a slave oriented community, even though the slaves would have their every desire fulfilled by the robots. Many people would like this for a while. But after some time, there would be many of them who would like to strike off on their own and make a free life for themselves, living off the land.

Cool

I take the point. If everything is given for free then there is no autonomy and no individual meaning. So if (when?) we reach a point where everything is free, then it may improve quality of life in purely material terms, but the cost is the loss of the freedom that comes from individuals being responsible for their own existence. So a full UBI that provides 100% of material needs is also doing nothing to solve the deeper problem that is the loss of the freedom, autonomy and accountability that is such a big part of what it is to be human.

I'm still not sure what the answer is, but the discussion is widening my perspective, which is always a good thing.

I would think the answer to be something like this.

Let everyone who is capable of working work. But, provide a method for supporting them during relief periods, so that they can rest from their labors when they need it.

Generally, we have this rest period every weekend, and on vacations from jobs. For those people who need a bigger rest for some reason, we have welfare. But extending welfare into UBI, or even making welfare a long-lasting thing where it is not needed, is turning us into a destructive socialism.

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June 28, 2019, 05:24:42 PM
 #31

The wealthiest people do the least amount of work.  We don't have a system that rewards you fairly or else we wouldn't have factory workers slaving away all day with no savings.  I get a really uneasy feeling when CEOs make 1000x more than their employees.

Capital is king and that is the main issue, people get wealth from ownership and not work.
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June 28, 2019, 06:07:16 PM
 #32

If we have equal wealth on everyside of the corer then we can't find anyone who will work for us which is indeed for this world to be active and for productivity and also basic income for everyone is much indeed but its not going to happen as well.

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July 01, 2019, 04:29:12 PM
 #33

Until we get to the point that there are no longer any possible jobs humans can do, I don't agree with having a UBI. I don't like the thought of rewarding people for simply being alive.

I actually find the future where we have complete automation less rosy than what is portrayed in sci-fi like Star Trek. Where is the money going to come from anyway? What happens when you are branded "unsavory" and have your income cut off and there's no job you can do since everything is automated?
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July 01, 2019, 04:37:16 PM
 #34

Until we get to the point that there are no longer any possible jobs humans can do, I don't agree with having a UBI. I don't like the thought of rewarding people for simply being alive.

I actually find the future where we have complete automation less rosy than what is portrayed in sci-fi like Star Trek. Where is the money going to come from anyway? What happens when you are branded "unsavory" and have your income cut off and there's no job you can do since everything is automated?

The money wouldn't even matter if we have more than enough resources for everyone.  You are looking at this the wrong way.   Capitalism already rewards people for simply being alive, money makes money faster than working.  Why not spread that wealth to the lower income group.  If the wealth gap gets too out of hand society crumbles apart.
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July 01, 2019, 09:22:31 PM
 #35

Until we get to the point that there are no longer any possible jobs humans can do, I don't agree with having a UBI. I don't like the thought of rewarding people for simply being alive.

I actually find the future where we have complete automation less rosy than what is portrayed in sci-fi like Star Trek. Where is the money going to come from anyway? What happens when you are branded "unsavory" and have your income cut off and there's no job you can do since everything is automated?

The money wouldn't even matter if we have more than enough resources for everyone.  You are looking at this the wrong way.   Capitalism already rewards people for simply being alive, money makes money faster than working.  Why not spread that wealth to the lower income group.  If the wealth gap gets too out of hand society crumbles apart.

Because automation is just an excuse. They are not hiring people because they choose not to, not because of automation. The plan is we are going to be culled anyway... so no need for UBI for people in mass graves.


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BADecker
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July 01, 2019, 09:41:10 PM
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 #36

Until we get to the point that there are no longer any possible jobs humans can do, I don't agree with having a UBI. I don't like the thought of rewarding people for simply being alive.

I actually find the future where we have complete automation less rosy than what is portrayed in sci-fi like Star Trek. Where is the money going to come from anyway? What happens when you are branded "unsavory" and have your income cut off and there's no job you can do since everything is automated?

The money wouldn't even matter if we have more than enough resources for everyone.  You are looking at this the wrong way.   Capitalism already rewards people for simply being alive, money makes money faster than working.  Why not spread that wealth to the lower income group.  If the wealth gap gets too out of hand society crumbles apart.

Because automation is just an excuse. They are not hiring people because they choose not to, not because of automation. The plan is we are going to be culled anyway... so no need for UBI for people in mass graves.

Right! Anybody can see that if they don't implement 100% automation, that is capable to do everything, all at the same time, the whole face of the world will change. Those who get the automation first will rule... until there are too many of them so that there aren't enough people to buy any of their products, because the people don't have jobs. Then they will fail for lack of business. The people will have gone on to bartering or Bitcoin among themselves without the automation.

UBI is just a game to put the collapse off for a while. But the longer they put it off, the worse it will be when it hits. In fact, the reason UBI is being talked about at all is that the current fiat system is just about ready to collapse, and they are hoping UBI might keep it from dying for a while longer yet.

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July 01, 2019, 09:46:15 PM
 #37

We already have machines doing the work. Have you people never visited a modern manufacturing plant, or even supermarket?  

A lot of employers don't want UBI because it changes labor market dynamics.  Potential workers have more leverage in negotiating what an acceptable labor agreement is when the gun of "work or die" isn't pointed at their head.  People still want to work to earn more money than just the UBI, but they don't HAVE TO.  Without UBI, there is more supply of workers than demand for labor and workers are forced to accept otherwise unacceptable working conditions.  
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July 01, 2019, 09:52:26 PM
 #38

We already have machines doing the work. Have you people never visited a modern manufacturing plant, or even supermarket?  

A lot of employers don't want UBI because it changes labor market dynamics.  Potential workers have more leverage in negotiating what an acceptable labor agreement is when the gun of "work or die" isn't pointed at their head.  People still want to work to earn more money than just the UBI, but they don't HAVE TO.  Without UBI, there is more supply of workers than demand for labor and workers are forced to accept otherwise unacceptable working conditions.  

Unless they become Amish... or use Amish-like economics.

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July 01, 2019, 09:58:05 PM
 #39


UBI is a necessary ingredient to get the common peeps behind the depopulation agenda.

The resource-based dynastic wealth has been fixated on 'population problems' for a century because 'their' resources are being wasted feeding the 'useless eaters.'  On the other hand, the risk/reward ratio of depopulation to the masses is not very favorable.

With UBI, there will be a direct and tangible benefit to having fewer people needing bennies.  Everyone else will see an increase when there are fewer mouths to feed.  Or so the narrative will go.


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July 01, 2019, 11:32:37 PM
 #40


UBI is a necessary ingredient to get the common peeps behind the depopulation agenda.

The resource-based dynastic wealth has been fixated on 'population problems' for a century because 'their' resources are being wasted feeding the 'useless eaters.'  On the other hand, the risk/reward ratio of depopulation to the masses is not very favorable.

With UBI, there will be a direct and tangible benefit to having fewer people needing bennies.  Everyone else will see an increase when there are fewer mouths to feed.  Or so the narrative will go.


Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and others tried the depopulation thing. They killed as many as 200 million in the 1900s. But look at the population now! Did they miss anything with their UBI plans? Are they smarter than Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and others?

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