The Lightning Network FAQ

[Carlton Banks]

Isn't it exactly the opposite? I looked up this command on a few websites and they said that setting it to -20 makes the process the most favorable.

correct, except making the lightning/bitcoin daemon more favorable is not what you want to keep the raspi stable

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[Rath_]

Yesterday, Andreas Antonopoulos announced on his YouTube account that "Mastering the Lightning Network" is going to be released next year! It will be possible to contribute on Github to the book and proofread it before it is released. The work on it will start in the middle of September.

[LoyceV]

It's very surprising news, who would expect Lightning Network protocol and client which are on development phase have security issue which could cause loss of funds

Lol
The fact that the loss of funds "could happen" but hasn't happened yet is more surprising

[Wind_FURY]

It's very surprising news, who would expect Lightning Network protocol and client which are on development phase have security issue which could cause loss of funds

Lol
The fact that the loss of funds "could happen" but hasn't happened yet is more surprising

I believe the only reason why hackers haven't started looking for vulnerabilities in Lightning is because the rewards might be too small for the effort.

Its success, if it becomes a success with billions passing around in the network, will also make it a target in my opinion.

[LoyceV]

Can I use this thread to post an actual service that accepts LN as payment? I funded my LN-wallet again just to support this initiative: a $1 VPS server (HDD))! It's small and no doubt slow, and I LOVE that they accept LN. Contrary to on-chain Bitcoin, LN is designed for this.

If there are more real services that accept LN payment, I'd like to see them posted here. BitCryptex, are you okay with that?

I still have high hopes for LN: despite it being very small compared to many altcoins, there are already a couple dozen different wallets. My guess is they all want to be one of the first, so they have early adopter advantage once LN gets really big.

@BitCryptex: you mentioned running a node before, so I got an idea: would it be possible to use Linux command line to check payment requests before paying? I'd like to set up a promotional node that pays all LN requests posted anywhere on Bitcointalk as long as they're under a certain (low) value. I already scrape the posts, so I can get all requests within seconds. If I can pull this off with a node, I think I can get all requests paid within 10 seconds after posting.

[Carlton Banks]

Can I use this thread to post an actual service that accepts LN as payment?

I would say "no, Dev & Tech is the wrong board". But I'm not moderating this thread

I still have high hopes for LN: despite it being very small compared to many altcoins

that makes zero sense

It would make sense if you were to compare Litecoin's LN with Bitcoin's LN. Litecoin's LN is smaller. That would make sense.

[Rath_]

If there are more real services that accept LN payment, I'd like to see them posted here. BitCryptex, are you okay with that?

I don't mind if someone posts anything LN related here from time to time. However, I might create a separate thread for that or you can do it yourself since this thread should be focused more on questions.

@BitCryptex: you mentioned running a node before, so I got an idea: would it be possible to use Linux command line to check payment requests before paying?

It would be possible. LND seems to have LookupInvoice command which returns a lot of information, including the requested value. You can also try this invoice decoder.

[bitart]

If there are more real services that accept LN payment, I'd like to see them posted here. BitCryptex, are you okay with that?

I don't mind if someone posts anything LN related here from time to time. However, I might create a separate thread for that or you can do it yourself since this thread should be focused more on questions.
...

I would be interested in a separate board for LN if possible (but as I saw somewhere there will be no separate board unless there will be enough activity in LN related threads, but there will not be enough activity until the LN topics are easy to find, so this is a bit like catch-22...)
I know there's a search function in the forum and there's google search, but a separate board is just really different...

[Rath_]

-snip

I proposed it about 3 months ago and nothing has happened since then. A board dedicated to second layer solutions might help us not to abuse this topic and divide information into separate threads without having to worry that they will end up on the 20th page of this section. If you want to discuss it further, please reply in the previously mentioned topic.

[Richard Jonson]

I'm confused till after greeting multiple response till as fewer look like not accurate!! which is very much irritating for the small invest.   
If possible from anyone of you please clerify me with iconic point of Lightning Network payments.

And confirm me please is it accept BitPay?

[Last of the V8s]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbdPWjvnsOMyyce4oxRZWo2fmV9Dhg42p
Here's a channel worth subscribing to. @shinobi plans to push out quite a few more podcasts in the next ~week, covering lots of aspects of lightning now and way off in to the future.

[Rath_]

If possible from anyone of you please clerify me with iconic point of Lightning Network payments.

In most cases, they are instant and cost way less than on-chain transactions. However, there are many disadvantages such as not being able to receive payments right after opening a channel, payment routing failures and having to be online in order to prevent the other party from cheating. Don't expect to earn a lot of money on running a Lightning Network node right now.

And confirm me please is it accept BitPay?

BitPay does not accept Lightning Network payments. Introducing SegWit addresses and fixing their QR codes will be huge milestones for them.

[LoyceV]

ie: Gift Cards have proven superior over Lightning Network for actually removing transactions offchain

It's easy for a centralized entity to allow zero-fee transactions between users. Most online casinos and some exchanges allow customers to "tip" each other. They all have their own system, and it only works within their own website. That's great, assuming you trust the site.
But it's not what LN is about.

[lightningmelo]

ie: Gift Cards have proven superior over Lightning Network for actually removing transactions offchain

It's easy for a centralized entity to allow zero-fee transactions between users. Most online casinos and some exchanges allow customers to "tip" each other. They all have their own system, and it only works within their own website. That's great, assuming you trust the site.
But it's not what LN is about.

I think the OP means actual gift cards, like the ones you can buy at convenience stores, for Amazon, iTunes, etc.

Businesses selling those online are actually getting a lot of value from using LN because they can just send the card right away instead of having to wait for X confirmations.

There's no centralized entity since the funds are coming from an outsider to the company.

[darosior]

(This is dependent on the number of transactions made,
make a single transaction on LN and you paid more than a single onchain bitcoin transaction.
You have to make multiple transactions to the exact same person to save the most on fees.)

You are confused between direct payment channels and the actual Lightning Network. Having such a network is the whole point of solving the direct payment channels issue you pointed out. You can learn more about the Lightning Network here.

To answer the question : using the Lightning network is viable if you expect to do more than 2 payments using it. You will in practice have to pay some additional on-chain transactions to reload your channels.

[Wind_FURY]

If possible from anyone of you please clerify me with iconic point of Lightning Network payments.

In most cases, they are instant and cost way less than on-chain transactions. However, there are many disadvantages such as not being able to receive payments right after opening a channel, payment routing failures and having to be online in order to prevent the other party from cheating. Don't expect to earn a lot of money on running a Lightning Network node right now.

And confirm me please is it accept BitPay?

BitPay does not accept Lightning Network payments. Introducing SegWit addresses and fixing their QR codes will be huge milestones for them.

Hahaha. That would be their greatest development as a Bitcoin service. But have you used Bitpay? It now markets for Bitcoin Cash. But in a subtle/naughty way.

Plus criticizing Lightning is OK, but saying gift cards are more superior is the dumbest way to criticize it.

[LoyceV]

Using LN without planning can not only cost you more , but also increase the number of onchain transactions.
LN is not a magic solution, it only relieves fee costs and decreases onchain transactions if used wisely.
Which in LN case is multiple transactions between the same parties over and over again.

Many people keep their Bitcoin on exchanges. Top 100 Richest Bitcoin Addresses shows a few billion dollars worth of Bitcoin in cold storage owned by exchanges.
Once LN becomes mainstream, I can imagine the people who store their funds on exchanges, won't have any problem using the same exchange to make their payments. Currently thats not a viable option because withdrawal fees are much higher compared to using your own wallet.
I imagine a future in which exchanges keep a couple million dollar worth of Bitcoin in their LN hot wallet, and many people use the exchange to make their small payments without ever needing to fund a LN channel on their own.
Say: paying from exchange to VPS provider, paying from exchange to buy a coffee, or paying from exchange to fund a balance on website x. The exchange, VPS provider, and website x will run their own LN-node. The coffee bar will most likely use a large payment processor that runs their own LN-node.

There are already custodial LN wallets, but they still need to earn their trust. If a large exchange would provide their own convenient (mobile) wallet, I'd love to use it!

LN is Banking 2.0 .

As long as it's optional, I'm totally fine with that! I want to be able to use Bitcoin for small transactions, and for small amounts I don't mind trusting someone.

Is it really Bitcoin in which you and only you are in full control of your private keys? No.
Do I care for small amounts as long as I can make small payments without paying several dollars in fees? Hell no!

[darosior]

(This is dependent on the number of transactions made,
make a single transaction on LN and you paid more than a single onchain bitcoin transaction.
You have to make multiple transactions to the exact same person to save the most on fees.)

You are confused between direct payment channels and the actual Lightning Network. Having such a network is the whole point of solving the direct payment channels issue you pointed out. You can learn more about the Lightning Network here.

To answer the question : using the Lightning network is viable if you expect to do more than 2 payments using it. You will in practice have to pay some additional on-chain transactions to reload your channels.

Actually you're confused.  

Make a single LN transaction and you pay one onchain transaction fee to bitcoin network and then the LN transaction fee (per hub used), and then 1 onchain transaction fee to redeem your coins onchain.
Which means a single onchain transaction without LN would have been cheaper (as only a single onchain transaction charged)
However make 20 to 200 LN transactions to the same person and you saved greatly in fees.

Ah I understand... I actually naively thought you were honest and not spreading FUD. Have you ever read the whitepaper ? Or are you typing faster than you're learning ?

You want to discredit a network of routed payment channels by talking of the tradeoffs of a single payment channel. But you talk about the routing (a characteristic of a network of multiple channels) as one of these tradeoffs. That's why I thought you were obviously confused : actually you're not you're spreading FUD, but do you really think someone could actually believe such logic-less speech ?

LN is not a magic solution, it only relieves fee costs and decreases onchain transactions if used wisely.

That's true.

Which in LN case is multiple transactions between the same parties over and over again.

That's wrong. Intentionally or not ?

As the thread title is "The Lightning Network FAQ" and not "The Lightning Network FUDers challenging", I'll stop answering your messages. Please refer to the whitepaper (more conceptual) and the specifications (more technical and implementation-wise) for more accurate information about the Lightning Network.

[Wind_FURY]

I believe some people, whether FUD or not, have not thought of some use-cases that were tried on-chain, did not work, but would work in Lightning. One good use-case would be high frequency payments, Satoshi Dice.

[Carlton Banks]

I believe some people, whether FUD or not, have not thought of some use-cases that were tried on-chain, did not work, but would work in Lightning. One good use-case would be high frequency payments, Satoshi Dice.

it's good to bear in mind how increases in Bitcoin's exchange rate redefine what constitutes a micro-payment.

the "1 coffee use-case" is often considered the base level for in-person Bitcoin usage, but coffee can be anywhere up to $6 a cup, and the low levels are more like $1.50. What about typical purchases that are cost less than that?

• Bus/subway tickets
• mp3s
• chewing gum
• cups of Tea

At the current BTC exchange rate, you can pay anything from $0.005 up to $1 to get a transaction confirmed. It's not unrealistic that BTC could reach x10 it's value even next year, at which point the case for Lightning will be proving itself further (although the Bitcoin devs could of course change the 1sat/vbyte minimum feerate, but that comes with spam trade-offs)

IMO, cups of coffee should not be the baseline. mp3's would make alot of sense, they're one of the cheapest single items out there, and the people selling them (well, the people who write the music at least) are some of the most independent business-people there are.

I've said this many times; Bitcoin is the final piece in the puzzle for musicians, they can have a totally closed loop business model, where they control and own everything:

• production (studio equipment)
• promotion (social networks)
• distribution (own website)
• payment & banking (cryptocurrency)