Livecoin.net Scam

[DireWolfM14]

If LiveCoin is so reputable, and they knew about the MONA attack within a few hours, why did they keep trading the asset?  Why didn't they shut it down?

Reputable exchanges don't keep trading assets they suspect are under 51% DDoS attacks.  Coinbase shuts down assets at the slightest inclining of an attack.  It pisses off their customers to no end, but guess what, nobody loses hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Is LiveCoin responsible for the attack?  No, the hacker is.
Is LiveCoin accountable for continuing to trade an asset they suspected is under attack?  Yes, they are, not their clients who were holding that asset.
Is LiveCoin taking advantage of their (illegal) terms of service to shirk their responsibility to their clients?  Yes, and they admit it.

Businesses suffer losses all the time, there's inherent risk in almost every business.  The biggest risk any business faces is losing all their clients, and ironically this is directly linked to how said business treats those clients.  LiveCoin is far from a "reputable business," just look at how they use their ToS to reject any and all accountability.  Those of us who would like to promote cryptocurrency into the mainstream should be ashamed of businesses such as LiveCoin, and we certainly shouldn't be defending them.

[1713582508]

1713582508

[1713582508]

1713582508

[deisik]

If LiveCoin is so reputable, and they knew about the MONA attack within a few hours, why did they keep trading the asset?  Why didn't they shut it down?

Did you read nutildah's post?

Reputable exchanges don't keep trading assets they suspect are under 51% DDoS attacks.  Coinbase shuts down assets at the slightest inclining of an attack.  It pisses off their customers to no end, but guess what, nobody loses hundreds of thousands of dollars

This doesn't make them scammers

As I said in my post, the only accusation that can loosely count as a scam attempt is locking OP out of his account. The things you mention further in your post are irrelevant to the accusation. They are inconsequential. The approaches that LiveCoin has taken to deal with the attack and mitigate the aftereffects may not have been the best. They in fact can be even the worst possible (technically, we don't know the gory details, so it is actually a moot point). But then again, that alone doesn't turn LiveCoin into scammers. Though you can always call them incompetent if you please

[Hhampuz]

Businesses suffer losses all the time, there's inherent risk in almost every business.  The biggest risk any business faces is losing all their clients, and ironically this is directly linked to how said business treats those clients.  LiveCoin is far from a "reputable business," just look at how they use their ToS to reject any and all accountability.  Those of us who would like to promote cryptocurrency into the mainstream should be ashamed of businesses such as LiveCoin, and we certainly shouldn't be defending them.

Which part of their ToS are you talking about? Just curious, as I want to make some cross-references.

[Blacknavy]

snip

Yes, Livecoin's rules aren't nice but it doesn’t mean they're scam. This is unreasonable, i think the real responsibility belong to Monacoin in this case. However, I left the campaign until the problem will be solved.

[Quickseller]

Reputable exchanges don't keep trading assets they suspect are under 51% DDoS attacks.  Coinbase shuts down assets at the slightest inclining of an attack.  It pisses off their customers to no end, but guess what, nobody loses hundreds of thousands of dollars

This doesn't make them scammers

Yes it does....

They are selling an asset to someone and the buyer will never be able to take possession of said asset because the seller is refusing to deliver.

This would not be unlike if I were to sell a gold coin that I do not have and have no intention of delivering to any buyer (I would never do that).

[Hhampuz]

Reputable exchanges don't keep trading assets they suspect are under 51% DDoS attacks.  Coinbase shuts down assets at the slightest inclining of an attack.  It pisses off their customers to no end, but guess what, nobody loses hundreds of thousands of dollars

This doesn't make them scammers

Yes it does....

They are selling an asset to someone and the buyer will never be able to take possession of said asset because the seller is refusing to deliver.

This would not be unlike if I were to sell a gold coin that I do not have and have no intention of delivering to any buyer (I would never do that).

That is actually very different since they have a market where you can speculate on the coin. If you were to sell a physical good that you wouldn't deliver that would be an actual scam since the buyer could never get anything back for it. Surprised this one goes over your head QS.

[teeGUMES]

Reputable exchanges don't keep trading assets they suspect are under 51% DDoS attacks.  Coinbase shuts down assets at the slightest inclining of an attack.  It pisses off their customers to no end, but guess what, nobody loses hundreds of thousands of dollars

This doesn't make them scammers

Yes it does....

They are selling an asset to someone and the buyer will never be able to take possession of said asset because the seller is refusing to deliver.

This would not be unlike if I were to sell a gold coin that I do not have and have no intention of delivering to any buyer (I would never do that).

That is actually very different since they have a market where you can speculate on the coin. If you were to sell a physical good that you wouldn't deliver that would be an actual scam since the buyer could never get anything back for it. Surprised this one goes over your head QS.

Surprised their whole ToS went over your head when you became their bitcointalk.org branding manager Hhampuz. Due diligence much?

[deisik]

Reputable exchanges don't keep trading assets they suspect are under 51% DDoS attacks.  Coinbase shuts down assets at the slightest inclining of an attack.  It pisses off their customers to no end, but guess what, nobody loses hundreds of thousands of dollars

This doesn't make them scammers

Yes it does....

They are selling an asset to someone and the buyer will never be able to take possession of said asset because the seller is refusing to deliver

Who are they more specifically?

They (the exchange) are not selling anything (well, unless proved otherwise). Both buyers and sellers are clients of the exchange (read, traders), and it is them selling and buying everything, not the exchange itself. Simple, isn't it? Does that make them (the exchange) scammers now provided LiveCoin had warned their clients about the state of the asset as in "trashy" (read, you are on your own)?

[Hhampuz]

Reputable exchanges don't keep trading assets they suspect are under 51% DDoS attacks.  Coinbase shuts down assets at the slightest inclining of an attack.  It pisses off their customers to no end, but guess what, nobody loses hundreds of thousands of dollars

This doesn't make them scammers

Yes it does....

They are selling an asset to someone and the buyer will never be able to take possession of said asset because the seller is refusing to deliver.

This would not be unlike if I were to sell a gold coin that I do not have and have no intention of delivering to any buyer (I would never do that).

That is actually very different since they have a market where you can speculate on the coin. If you were to sell a physical good that you wouldn't deliver that would be an actual scam since the buyer could never get anything back for it. Surprised this one goes over your head QS.

Surprised their whole ToS went over your head when you became their bitcointalk.org branding manager Hhampuz. Due diligence much?

When did I become their branding manager? Managing a signature campaign is much different.. speaking of things going over your head.

[teeGUMES]

Surprised their whole ToS went over your head when you became their bitcointalk.org branding manager Hhampuz. Due diligence much?

When did I become their branding manager? Managing a signature campaign is much different.. speaking of things going over your head.

LiveCoin wants me to run a Campaign here at bitcointalk for them to increase exposure and spread the awareness of their stellar exchange. I'll be looking for a few members that can represent the brand well while getting paid a decent amount in the process!

Bolded some key parts for you.

[Quickseller]

Reputable exchanges don't keep trading assets they suspect are under 51% DDoS attacks.  Coinbase shuts down assets at the slightest inclining of an attack.  It pisses off their customers to no end, but guess what, nobody loses hundreds of thousands of dollars

This doesn't make them scammers

Yes it does....

They are selling an asset to someone and the buyer will never be able to take possession of said asset because the seller is refusing to deliver.

This would not be unlike if I were to sell a gold coin that I do not have and have no intention of delivering to any buyer (I would never do that).

That is actually very different since they have a market where you can speculate on the coin. If you were to sell a physical good that you wouldn't deliver that would be an actual scam since the buyer could never get anything back for it. Surprised this one goes over your head QS.

Any market can be used to speculate on the price of the asset. When you are buying a coin on an exchange, you are buying the actual coin, not a derivative.

If I were to sell a coin I did not have, and did not intend to deliver, the buyer could sell the rights to the coin to someone else if there is a willing buyer.

edit: How about this, you can send 0.15BTC to 3P1o6BafmQomjKjakbK4ske8Lq8hCkJhiU to "speculate on the price of" 10 ETH -- I will not allow you to ever receive this ETH but you can sell this right to "speculate on the price" of ETH to anyone else who is a willing buyer. In my specific case, I am not scamming because I am disclosing your inability to receive ETH ahead of time, but LiveCoin did not do this, and as such is scamming.

[Hhampuz]

Surprised their whole ToS went over your head when you became their bitcointalk.org branding manager Hhampuz. Due diligence much?

When did I become their branding manager? Managing a signature campaign is much different.. speaking of things going over your head.

LiveCoin wants me to run a Campaign here at bitcointalk for them to increase exposure and spread the awareness of their stellar exchange. I'll be looking for a few members that can represent the brand well while getting paid a decent amount in the process!

Bolded some key parts for you.

Again  , Running a signature campaign for them /= being their brand manager?

Any market can be used to speculate on the price of the asset. When you are buying a coin on an exchange, you are buying the actual coin, not a derivative.

If I were to sell a coin I did not have, and did not intend to deliver, the buyer could sell the rights to the coin to someone else if there is a willing buyer.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Both you and I know that it's very different so I've no idea where you are going with this.

Snip from Poloniex terms:

"We reserve the right to restrict or refuse to permit withdrawals from your Account if (i) your Account has otherwise been suspended or closed by Poloniex in accordance with this Agreement; (ii) to do so would be prohibited by law or a court order or we have determined that the Digital Assets were obtained fraudulently; or (iii) you have not undergone the required identity verification procedure such that your identity has been verified, as indicated by your Account.

You can check whether or not your Account has been verified by reviewing your verification status under the “My Profile” section of your Account.

Upon closure or suspension of your Account, you authorize Poloniex to cancel or suspend pending transactions."

[Quickseller]

Snip from Poloniex terms:

"We reserve the right to restrict or refuse to permit withdrawals from your Account if (i) your Account has otherwise been suspended or closed by Poloniex in accordance with this Agreement; (ii) to do so would be prohibited by law or a court order or we have determined that the Digital Assets were obtained fraudulently; or (iii) you have not undergone the required identity verification procedure such that your identity has been verified, as indicated by your Account.

You can check whether or not your Account has been verified by reviewing your verification status under the “My Profile” section of your Account.

Upon closure or suspension of your Account, you authorize Poloniex to cancel or suspend pending transactions."

They are saying they will restrict your ability to withdraw if you deposit stolen money, laundered money, or have a court order to not allow you access to the money, or very similar. They don't have the ability to not process withdrawals for arbitrary reasons as is happening with LiveCoin.

Further:

edit: How about this, you can send 0.15BTC to 3P1o6BafmQomjKjakbK4ske8Lq8hCkJhiU to "speculate on the price of" 10 ETH -- I will not allow you to ever receive this ETH but you can sell this right to "speculate on the price" of ETH to anyone else who is a willing buyer. In my specific case, I am not scamming because I am disclosing your inability to receive ETH ahead of time, but LiveCoin did not do this, and as such is scamming.

[Hhampuz]

Snip from Poloniex terms:

"We reserve the right to restrict or refuse to permit withdrawals from your Account if (i) your Account has otherwise been suspended or closed by Poloniex in accordance with this Agreement; (ii) to do so would be prohibited by law or a court order or we have determined that the Digital Assets were obtained fraudulently; or (iii) you have not undergone the required identity verification procedure such that your identity has been verified, as indicated by your Account.

You can check whether or not your Account has been verified by reviewing your verification status under the “My Profile” section of your Account.

Upon closure or suspension of your Account, you authorize Poloniex to cancel or suspend pending transactions."

They are saying they will restrict your ability to withdraw if you deposit stolen money, laundered money, or have a court order to not allow you access to the money, or very similar. They don't have the ability to not process withdrawals for arbitrary reasons as is happening with LiveCoin.

Wrong since it clearly states "If your account has otherwised been suspended or closed by Poloniex" which eludes to a previous section where they state your account may be closed if you violate their terms.

It's the same thing in different words. Get the flags out QS! I've got all night and will go over all the top exchanges terms and we shall see how many flags we need to create tomorrow .

Snip from Bitfinex ToS:

"The Site may suspend or terminate the Services to you, your Digital Tokens Wallet, or to any of your Digital Tokens Address at its sole discretion, as required by applicable Laws or where Bitfinex determines that you have violated, breached, or acted inconsistent with any of these Terms of Service."

Snip from Binance ToS:

"10. Termination of Agreement
You agree that Binance shall have the right to immediately suspend your account (and any accounts beneficially owned by related entities or affiliates), freeze or lock the funds in all such accounts, and suspend your access to Binance for any reason including if it suspects any such accounts to be in violation of these Terms, our Privacy Policy, or any applicable laws and regulations. You agree that Binance shall not be liable to you for any permanent or temporary modification, suspension or termination of your Account or access to all or any portion of the Services. Binance shall have the right to keep and use the transaction data or other information related to such accounts. The above account controls may also be applied in the following cases:
after Binance terminates services to you;
you allegedly register or register in any other person’s name as Binance user again, directly or indirectly;
the information that you have provided is untruthful, inaccurate, outdated or incomplete;
when these Terms are amended, you expressly state and notify Binance of your unwillingness to accept the amended Terms;
you request that the Services be terminated; and
any other circumstances where Binance deems it should terminate the services."

edit: How about this, you can send 0.15BTC to 3P1o6BafmQomjKjakbK4ske8Lq8hCkJhiU to "speculate on the price of" 10 ETH -- I will not allow you to ever receive this ETH but you can sell this right to "speculate on the price" of ETH to anyone else who is a willing buyer. In my specific case, I am not scamming because I am disclosing your inability to receive ETH ahead of time, but LiveCoin did not do this, and as such is scamming.

Wrong again

They did notify users that withdrawing/depositing MONA had been suspended until further notice would be given.

[DireWolfM14]

Which part of their ToS are you talking about? Just curious, as I want to make some cross-references.

I've laid out the more worrisome phrases in this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5159692.msg51720696#msg51720696
I'm not a lawyer, but it would probably be worth the expense to have one draft a user agreement that doesn't violate the law.

Did you read nutildah's post?

Did you?  As nutildah lays out clearly; on May 15, 2018 LiveCoin notices what they suspect to be a DDoS attack on MONA.  On June 7, 2018 they decide it's time to stop trading MONA and freeze the asset.  Three fucking weeks later?

Reputable exchanges don't keep trading assets they suspect are under 51% DDoS attacks.

This doesn't make them scammers

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.  

[Hhampuz]

I've laid out the more worrisome phrases in this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5159692.msg51720696#msg51720696
I'm not a lawyer, but it would probably be worth the expense to have one draft a user agreement that doesn't violate the law.

So is it the part of withholding their remaining funds or is it the reason for doing so? Since most major exchanges have various reasons where they can do so, livecoin are in no way unique with these terms.

[Blacknavy]

Did you?  As nutildah lays out clearly; on May 15, 2018 LiveCoin notices what they suspect to be a DDoS attack on MONA.  On June 7, 2018 they decide it's time to stop trading MONA and freeze the asset.  Three fucking weeks later?

It doesn't matter, the attackers had already sold fake MONAs on Livecoin until the network of Mona was stopped by team.

[Quickseller]

edit: How about this, you can send 0.15BTC to 3P1o6BafmQomjKjakbK4ske8Lq8hCkJhiU to "speculate on the price of" 10 ETH -- I will not allow you to ever receive this ETH but you can sell this right to "speculate on the price" of ETH to anyone else who is a willing buyer. In my specific case, I am not scamming because I am disclosing your inability to receive ETH ahead of time, but LiveCoin did not do this, and as such is scamming.

Wrong again

They did notify users that withdrawing/depositing MONA had been suspended until further notice would be given.

Wonderful. Please post here once you have sent the tx, since you are such a strong believe that this arrangement is entirely ethical, and in no way a scam.

[Hhampuz]

edit: How about this, you can send 0.15BTC to 3P1o6BafmQomjKjakbK4ske8Lq8hCkJhiU to "speculate on the price of" 10 ETH -- I will not allow you to ever receive this ETH but you can sell this right to "speculate on the price" of ETH to anyone else who is a willing buyer. In my specific case, I am not scamming because I am disclosing your inability to receive ETH ahead of time, but LiveCoin did not do this, and as such is scamming.

Wrong again

They did notify users that withdrawing/depositing MONA had been suspended until further notice would be given.

Wonderful. Please post here once you have sent the tx, since you are such a strong believe that this arrangement is entirely ethical, and in no way a scam.

So you are just going to keep changing the narrative time and time again? How about retracting your statement that Livecoin did not notify their users?

EDIT; Are you going to flag all the exchanges that traded b2x too? I know some people that lost serious money on that..

[DireWolfM14]

I've laid out the more worrisome phrases in this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5159692.msg51720696#msg51720696
I'm not a lawyer, but it would probably be worth the expense to have one draft a user agreement that doesn't violate the law.

So is it the part of withholding their remaining funds or is it the reason for doing so? Since most major exchanges have various reasons where they can do so, livecoin are in no way unique with these terms.

Both!  Just because they write in their terms of service that they can shit on my lawn every morning doesn't mean it's legal for them to shit on my lawn every morning.  It's my lawn, I signed their user agreement, but there are other laws that govern where they can and cannot shit.

Exchanges are bound by law to freeze assets of known criminals, terrorists, and money launders.  That's the only legal precedent they have for freezing a clients account.  Posting mean things on social media doesn't give them the right to freeze a clients assets.  Not only that, doing so is a violation of the law, and plain old common sense.  Who the fuck does that?  You wouldn't have withheld QS's last sig campaign payment even though he was slandering you.

Not to mention their ToS sounds like it was written by some one who has never used English in daily conversation, and it's full of stupid shit like "causing troubles."  Please define "causing troubles" and explain to me how to avoid it, so as to prevent my account from being locked.  

Please find similar clauses in Coinbase's or Binance's user agreements.