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Author Topic: Livecoin.net Scam  (Read 9804 times)
Quickseller
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July 09, 2019, 06:39:22 PM
 #241

Based on your recent posts, it is very clear that you would be more than happy to keep their signature on if the campaign would continue.

Yes, that's exactly right. Because you know why? I don't consider 1 complaint by 1 user a good enough reason to trash an exchange of Livecoin's magnitude, longevity, and standing.

Look at what this thread is filled with: 12 pages of various DTs and wannabees hemming and hawing over the issue and zero other _actual_ victims. I've given red trusts to scammy exchanges before BUT only after it was apparent they had scammed multiple users. The reason for this is that running an altcoin exchange is a novel, legally murky business, and every exchange worth its weight in salt has plenty of complaints against it.

I gave several concessions during the course of my posts here that blocking the user for the reasons given wasn't right, and also agreed they should alter their TOS. I encouraged Livecoin to consider unblocking the user account and letting them withdrawal their funds. They're not going to do this; this became evident about 30 hours ago -- so what else is left to say?

I didn't abandon the sig campaign 30 hours early because I don't believe I'm at risk of "promoting a scam exchange." I still don't consider Livecoin to be scammers -- if this offends you, tag me for it.
It’s good to know you believe it is okay for someone to selectively scam those who do business with you. This has been noted.

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July 09, 2019, 06:53:03 PM
 #242

Based on your recent posts, it is very clear that you would be more than happy to keep their signature on if the campaign would continue.

Yes, that's exactly right. Because you know why? I don't consider 1 complaint by 1 user a good enough reason to trash an exchange of Livecoin's magnitude, longevity, and standing.

Look at what this thread is filled with: 12 pages of various DTs and wannabees hemming and hawing over the issue and zero other _actual_ victims. I've given red trusts to scammy exchanges before BUT only after it was apparent they had scammed multiple users. The reason for this is that running an altcoin exchange is a novel, legally murky business, and every exchange worth its weight in salt has plenty of complaints against it.

I gave several concessions during the course of my posts here that blocking the user for the reasons given wasn't right, and also agreed they should alter their TOS. I encouraged Livecoin to consider unblocking the user account and letting them withdrawal their funds. They're not going to do this; this became evident about 30 hours ago -- so what else is left to say?

I didn't abandon the sig campaign 30 hours early because I don't believe I'm at risk of "promoting a scam exchange." I still don't consider Livecoin to be scammers -- if this offends you, tag me for it.
Well, you write in the trust to others, just personal distaste https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5157967.msg51599886#msg51599886. Personally, I hope that you finally will fly from DT, liars do not belong there.
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July 09, 2019, 07:36:39 PM
Merited by Quickseller (1), mikeywith (1)
 #243

Based on your recent posts, it is very clear that you would be more than happy to keep their signature on if the campaign would continue.

Yes, that's exactly right. Because you know why? I don't consider 1 complaint by 1 user a good enough reason to trash an exchange of Livecoin's magnitude, longevity, and standing.

Look at what this thread is filled with: 12 pages of various DTs and wannabees hemming and hawing over the issue and zero other _actual_ victims. I've given red trusts to scammy exchanges before BUT only after it was apparent they had scammed multiple users.

I provided links to several other complaints about Livecoin. You're focusing on the OP, but to me, Livecoin's confirmed practice of permanently disabling wallets in these situations is scam behavior. Doing so causes the market to price in their insolvency. This effectively passes on all losses to depositors, who are left holding worthless un-backed tokens on Livecoin that can't be withdrawn. That's why XMR is 70% cheaper than everywhere else.

The Monero scandal is much bigger than the Monacoin one. A year later, with Livecoin still pointing the finger at Monero's developers, I think we can conclude that they will never repay their XMR depositors. More than 15K XMR was stolen in the attack -- $1.8 million at the time -- which suggests even more XMR was stolen by Livecoin from their depositors when they permanently disabled withdrawals. There are complaints all over the internet, so please don't act like they must be confined to this thread for you to acknowledge their existence.

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July 09, 2019, 11:04:44 PM
Last edit: July 09, 2019, 11:38:07 PM by xtraelv
Merited by suchmoon (4), mikeywith (1)
 #244

Based on your recent posts, it is very clear that you would be more than happy to keep their signature on if the campaign would continue.

Yes, that's exactly right. Because you know why? I don't consider 1 complaint by 1 user a good enough reason to trash an exchange of Livecoin's magnitude, longevity, and standing.


One complaint initiated the thread - there are more complaints.  I posted this earlier in the thread.  I think the fact that their legal structure appears to be based on untruths is concerning.

I don't know how comfortable this sits with you:


Quote
While claiming to be registered in the UK, after some digging, we found their actual company to be registered in Belize, and the only mention online about their claimed CEO is a rather weird article on a seemingly affiliated “blockchain news site” – and we believe the person Ivona Zlatova is not a real one, and is placeholding for the actual people who run the exchange behind the scenes.

Source: https://www.cointelligence.com/exchanges_list/livecoin/
Archived: http://web.archive.org/web/20190709230333/https://www.cointelligence.com/exchanges_list/livecoin/


Livecoin.Net TOS have no reference to any company that owns or operates the website.

With the recent Bitsane disappearance it shows how risky it is having funds on an exchange that does not want to be found.

It appears to be registered in Belize under the name of:   RED VELVET INVESTMENTS LTD
.





It appears that little information is known about Ivona Zlatova and there are suspicions that this person may not exist.







http://web.archive.org/web/20190709232103/https://www.finder.com/livecoin-exchange-review

Initially Livecoin claimed to be run by UK company DELTA E-COMMERCE LTD

But a search from the companies office shows that they had an exemption from filing financial accounts because they NEVER TRADED and were eventually struck off

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08146865/filing-history



https://www.bestbitcoinexchange.net/en/livecoin-net/





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July 09, 2019, 11:25:34 PM
Merited by malevolent (1)
 #245

Based on your recent posts, it is very clear that you would be more than happy to keep their signature on if the campaign would continue.

Yes, that's exactly right. Because you know why? I don't consider 1 complaint by 1 user a good enough reason to trash an exchange of Livecoin's magnitude, longevity, and standing...

You mean people don't want to come forward and post about a problem with an exchange that locks your funds for doing so? Shocking!


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July 09, 2019, 11:38:51 PM
 #246

Yes, that's exactly right. Because you know why? I don't consider 1 complaint by 1 user a good enough reason to trash an exchange of Livecoin's magnitude, longevity, and standing.
According to that logic, if someone finds a cockroach in a KFC bowl you'd not hesitate to eat at the same place just because "it's 1 complaint by 1 user"? Interesting point of view.

It all starts with one user and should be rectified at this stage before thousands are victims to it. Most of the scummy exchanges as we have seen in the past started showing signs of scams by targetting only selective users.

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July 10, 2019, 12:41:29 AM
 #247

Based on your recent posts, it is very clear that you would be more than happy to keep their signature on if the campaign would continue.

Yes, that's exactly right. Because you know why? I don't consider 1 complaint by 1 user a good enough reason to trash an exchange of Livecoin's magnitude, longevity, and standing...

You mean people don't want to come forward and post about a problem with an exchange that locks your funds for doing so? Shocking!
Livecoin also posted snips from OP's Twitter.. so they combed through OP's social media looking for ammo/dirt. These are the same people that most likely handle KYC/AML info.
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July 10, 2019, 01:29:53 AM
 #248

Quote
These are the same people that most likely handle KYC

KYC should be an agreed standard across the industry, it could avoid disputes like this by being a universal and standardised system.    I think just anyone whose had an account online has had problems with KYC or fraud prevention, I definitely lost money from a bank blocking my card automatically just because I dont normally spend that much.   Of course I needed it to clear right that moment, it was automatically decided and declined so I missed an offer which cost me hundreds for no fault of my own.
    No communication was ever sent to me to explain or help me and it compounded further losses later on from the lack of information, so I consider that pretty awful tbh and thats a mainstream bank.  The point being this kind of 'lost in translation' upset to put it nicely occurs all over finance conventionally and now in crypto.  

Its really best if the requirements are done independently by 3rd party KYC processing and best agreed by many different parties and companies so that both consumers, companies and any regulators are in agreement its a suitable and fair process.    If every company has different policies then the sector becomes bumpy and uneven ground to traverse, discourages business and people ultimately assume the worst any time KYC is mentioned.

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July 10, 2019, 02:14:50 AM
 #249

3rd party KYC processing

Which gets hacked and everyone's KYC becomes worthless or even hazardous because hackers can now impersonate whoever they want (think Equifax-scale hack).

That's not to say it can't be done in a safe manner... but it won't be done because there is more money in doing it in a shoddy manner and then selling all sorts of "identity protection" shit etc.

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July 10, 2019, 03:43:34 AM
 #250

3rd party KYC processing

Which gets hacked and everyone's KYC becomes worthless or even hazardous because hackers can now impersonate whoever they want (think Equifax-scale hack).

That's not to say it can't be done in a safe manner... but it won't be done because there is more money in doing it in a shoddy manner and then selling all sorts of "identity protection" shit etc.

Also KYC information can easily be passed onto the authorities. If an exchange gets hacked the whole database can be cloned and forever accessible to the police and who-ever they share it with.

The exchange has no choice with it if they are either raided, have search warrants executed on them or their host, change ownership, have liquidators appointed or worse still - like Suchmoon suggested - get hacked and the private information is revealed.

Livecoin being an exchange which probably is a shell company run in Belize by anonymous Russians. The actual control of the exchange could be in any country.

Sending your passport details for KYC could be risky.

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July 10, 2019, 04:35:22 AM
Last edit: July 10, 2019, 04:47:34 AM by STT
 #251

I dont see they would have to hold onto the KYC details that were verified, I really hope they would not be doing this in any case.  Maybe you are right, for the sake of proof vs some kind of tax audit they keep a copy of customers exact passport details which makes me even more uncomfortable then I was previously.    

What I expect and seems reasonable is they verify the document once only to prove you are who you say you are, if its done real time theres no need to be keeping copies at any point.  Then they would just keep a note of your name and address perhaps, its proven well enough at this point and they can say they did their due diligence  etc.
   I can understand people are apprehensive about details being duplicated to be possibly used elsewhere, there is a monetary worth for that kind of information.   I'm sure Bitrex outsourced this requirement when I dealt with them, I much prefer I dont have to passing some test like this every time I deal with a new company.   Ideally it should be done once, in a token service kind of deal and then you are verified and this can be sent forward as proof without any further risk to documents being kept online somewhere or needed to be passed onto yet another company or set of individuals.

Last KYC I did recently just for comparison with a commodities depository company required my driving license and a bank statement.   The statement I dont care about really, the license could be some trouble I guess.    So ideally I'd want all companies to using a proper system for KYC universally, it probably should have been done a long time ago.   BTW, they are taking forever to respond to me, its just a conventional based company but always KYC is a pain and Im left for months trying to get their nod Iam a valid person not a pirate or whatever despite having the same address for decades it shouldnt be that hard to check.
    All they have to really do is check the national electoral register which is public record, that imo is enough to verify and I can even send them the last postal voting document I had.  No big deal as its time limited but literally shows Im a citizen, unfortunately I have to be giving out copies of my license to people which is a liability I agree.

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July 10, 2019, 04:54:20 AM
 #252

Based on your recent posts, it is very clear that you would be more than happy to keep their signature on if the campaign would continue.

Yes, that's exactly right. Because you know why? I don't consider 1 complaint by 1 user a good enough reason to trash an exchange of Livecoin's magnitude, longevity, and standing.

Look at what this thread is filled with: 12 pages of various DTs and wannabees hemming and hawing over the issue and zero other _actual_ victims. I've given red trusts to scammy exchanges before BUT only after it was apparent they had scammed multiple users. The reason for this is that running an altcoin exchange is a novel, legally murky business, and every exchange worth its weight in salt has plenty of complaints against it.

I gave several concessions during the course of my posts here that blocking the user for the reasons given wasn't right, and also agreed they should alter their TOS. I encouraged Livecoin to consider unblocking the user account and letting them withdrawal their funds. They're not going to do this; this became evident about 30 hours ago -- so what else is left to say?

I didn't abandon the sig campaign 30 hours early because I don't believe I'm at risk of "promoting a scam exchange." I still don't consider Livecoin to be scammers -- if this offends you, tag me for it.

You really have a thrash sense of judgement, this issue is about a service and there reaction to a affected costumer, you are just steering the drama with your bullshit.

I would advice not taking this person serious, he just looks like wiping his ass with the livecoin signature here and accusing for his personal agendas.

Grow up !

~

I don't think we should expect KYC implementation from an anonymous exchange with such an questionable TOS, whose operators are indeed unknown to the users. Its like giving personal info to an anonymous person online, and its a newbie mistake most would avoid. It does not look like do what you preach right ?

Did you even saw how did they attacked OPs, whatever personal info they got, the exchange also reviewed his Twitter account although it was nothing related to him loosing his funds on there exchange. Exchanging Personal info with such type of people's is surely unsafe and investigation action by LiveCoin proves the same.

Anyways KYC is a big SHIT ! Grin

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July 10, 2019, 04:58:23 AM
 #253

I don't think we should expect KYC implementation from an anonymous exchange with such an questionable TOS, whose operators are indeed unknown to the users. Its like giving personal info to an anonymous person online, and its a newbie mistake most would avoid. It does not look like do what you preach !

Anyways KYC is a big SHIT ! Grin


Well you can't really have it both ways.. Either you want unregulated and no KYC (which works in some cases) or you want regulated where KYC is more or less mandatory. Unless you are preaching something else here that I am missing.

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July 10, 2019, 05:08:01 AM
 #254

Well you can't really have it both ways.. Either you want unregulated and no KYC (which works in some cases) or you want regulated where KYC is more or less mandatory. Unless you are preaching something else here that I am missing.

I think I sound very clear in my comment, I am preaching non implementation of KYC here, most of the people are in crypto world due to its anonymity and decentralized phenomenon and I think KYC just brakes all of this important factors and turns it back to a centralized value.

You should just take an example of the recent Libra Shit, none of the OG crypto community support's it, I think it includes you right ?

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July 10, 2019, 07:10:36 AM
 #255

zero other _actual_ victims

There are other victims albeit behind the language barrier: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5162726.msg51756534#msg51756534

tl;dr: Someone had their account and their spouse's account blocked for the same (or similar) TOS clause. Had it unblocked just recently after 2 months.

Here is another one.  Sad
http://bitcoin-evolution.com/livecoin-exchange-scam-and-thieves/

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July 10, 2019, 08:56:06 AM
Last edit: July 10, 2019, 03:43:31 PM by wwzsocki
 #256

TBH I found multiple complains about all crypto exchanges. This is enough, to use Google and search for query: "name of exchange + scam".
I have taken from Coinmarketcap 10 first exchanges, biggest by the volume and checked like this. All these exchanges are accused, by random users across all available channels for multiple cases of abuse and obvious scam tactics. From failed KYC, blocked accounts by AML, to lost deposits, and withdrawals, lost alt coins in a mysterious way, etc. I think, I found all types of accusations possible.

The main reasons for the flag are this shady TOS and blocked account, but Hhampuz proved already, that all exchanges have such Terms of Service. Better or worse, they are hidden between complex industry specificities, to mislead users or put there in the hope, that they will not understand it completely or never read it in the first place. This Livecoin TOS are there from the very beginning and to bring this now, to the light is like a falstart in sport. A very long one, because took a few years to find it, which proves that indeed nobody reads, these rules before registering.

I don't see any other scammed members in this thread, which is very rare and weird, taking into consideration, how many people are scammed because of exchanges.
I see, that there are other threads and somebody is talking somewhere, that he was scammed too (quoted above), but never showed up here and we can assume, that this thread caught attention from the entire forum and all interested members have already seen it, taking into consideration the thread title. Is enough, to look at the stats of this thread.

Despite, how shady and not moral this TOS are, they are there from the beginning and one has, to agree with them when signing up.
To accuse now the exchange, that they use it against OP is not appropriate, because OP was warned, multiple times and proven, to be lying about the exchange and even admit it publicly.
Going back, to the Mona case, there are still not enough pieces of evidence and many questions should be answered before we come, to final conclusions.
Additionally, OP is not the most honest person and I have a problem, to believe in all his statements.

I can't shake the filling, that the main purpose of this all, was to stop the Livecoin signature campaign (QS), and show Hhampuz in a bad light.

After the announcement, that campaign will be finished, I don't see anybody asking the OP, if something has changed in his case, or maybe there is something, that could be done for him?
Even Op is not active and every normal OP in his thread is active constantly. I know because, I always was, especially in such important once. Here comes to me another thought, that maybe these Mona coins are not so important and this is not the only reason?

As for now, the only outcome of this case is, that the Livecoin exchange, got a flag for a block of one account, to which they use their TOS (despite moral or not), to close.
OP still didn't get the money and now, when the situation is even worse, I doubt, that Livecoin will help, after all that has been done and said. They have nothing to lose now, so why, to make the OP happy? Would you do this after such a battle? Of course, you do, but only if there will be something to lose, which was advertising in this particular case. One can think about this, as a simple signature campaign, but this was the reason for 10%, of the traffic on the Livecoin exchange. This is really a monster card, to play with (like AA), but they were burned all pre-flop. To scare away money from Bitcointalk is a very strange tactic for me, taking into consideration, that 99% of people are here, only because of the money.

Now, we have additional 20+ members, which are victims of this case, because of the lost spots in a great campaign, with one of the highest payouts. There was a big chance, that it will be ongoing for a very long time. Don't mention all the future members, which could get a spot, after some time and earn a few additional bucks, when posting on the forum. We all know, how everything is changing constantly in the signature campaigns.

Not so long ago, painted red one of the Polish exchanges, because there was, also a scam accusation thread, here on Bitcointalk against them. I was the only member of the polish community, active in this discussion. After OP posted evidence and additional accounts popped up, with more accusations, I filled obligated, to give the red trust. After some time, turned out, that the OP wasn't telling, the full truth and the other accounts, disappeared and never answered further, to me or exchange questions. I had to apologize and take my negative trust back after some time. The exchange was accused of holding deposits after OP passed full KYC. After deposit of a significant amount of cryptocurrencies, account was immediately frozen, despite KYC and exchange didn't want to send coins back, to the owner address. Looks obvious, but wasn't.

I think the approach, to flags, should be different. The flag should be granted at the end of the case, not at the very beginning.
First, we should try, to inform all involved parties and let them explain everything, between each other. We should keep close attention and help in the mediations, taking into consideration the interests of both sides. Like Hhampuz did, kudos for this. Flags were created, to stop the possibility, to destroy an account, with a single red trust, but from what I see, this is still possible.

When the flag is granted from the very beginning, the altitude of accused could be bad and I understand it. He could be not willing, to cooperate because already found guilty, so why, what for?
I am sure in a calm and polite way, we would be able to achieve something and not only, to create complete disaster and many collateral victims.

 
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July 10, 2019, 10:33:57 AM
 #257

Below is the quote from one of the most distinguished authors on the subject of power struggle, Robert Greene (no plagiarism intended):

Quote
It is only natural for people to cover up their actions with all kinds of justifications, always assuming that they have acted out of goodness. You must learn to inwardly laugh each time you hear this and never get caught up in gauging someone's intentions and actions through a set of moral judgments that are really an excuse for the accumulation of power

To me, it was as clear as day that the whole shebang was against the Livecoin signature campaign in general and its manager, Hhampuz, in particular. The motives of the majority supporting the flag were pretty straightforward and those were to shut down the campaign prematurely. But you are essentially shooting yourselves in the foot, guys, as BTT will not be taken seriously and advertisers will just stay away from it (read, no more milk for us)

So if you think you won, think again

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July 10, 2019, 11:16:00 AM
 #258

One complaint initiated the thread - there are more complaints.  I posted this earlier in the thread.  I think the fact that their legal structure appears to be based on untruths is concerning.

They've been around since 2014 -- 5 years is a long time to build up an epic exit scam by crypto standards.

I provided links to several other complaints about Livecoin. You're focusing on the OP, but to me, Livecoin's confirmed practice of permanently disabling wallets in these situations is scam behavior. Doing so causes the market to price in their insolvency. This effectively passes on all losses to depositors, who are left holding worthless un-backed tokens on Livecoin that can't be withdrawn. That's why XMR is 70% cheaper than everywhere else.

Its true, this is what happened -- they have permanently disabled 2 wallets, and that's not good. However, its not because they felt like selectively scamming MONA and XMR holders. They were the victims of thieves who took advantage of weaknesses in the coins' respective code to steal coins from Livecoin. It is Livecoin's philosophy that this is the fault of the coin developers and not their own. You don't have to agree with it, and there's no doubt they should have tighter security measures in place, but they are not just going around scamming people at random.

You mean people don't want to come forward and post about a problem with an exchange that locks your funds for doing so? Shocking!

Yeah because nobody in the history of the forum has ever created a second account  Roll Eyes


People just shut down their critical thinking skills when they are out for blood I guess.

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July 10, 2019, 01:55:00 PM
Last edit: July 10, 2019, 02:12:35 PM by mikeywith
 #259

They were the victims of thieves who took advantage of weaknesses in the coins' respective code

Wrong,they were the victims of their own weak security and lack of seriousness in protecting their clients' funds, every POW coin is subject to being attacked, there is a little to nothing that can be done about it on a code level , some methods like the "delay function" proposed by zen may make the attack a bit harder and that's all about it, the biggest part of responsibility is on the exchange itself.

There are many reasons why an exchange like Binance dominated the market in 1 years while Livecoin has never been top 10 or even top 30 despite being in business for years ,Security is one of the most important reasons.

if you go back in history and compare how every other exchange handled the 51% attack on MONA or any other 51% attack, you can easily see that Livecoin can easily be put on the top of the "suck-balls" list, Livecoin don't know how to run an exchange  -  simple !

tl;dr IMO Livecoin is not scam per se, but when investors lose their funds due to terrible security measures, it does not matter how you label them - they are as good as scammers, one does not have to directly steal your money, locking you out of your funds for saying stuff about them on Twitter or being too bad in protecting your funds are some great ways an exchange can follow to be considered a scam.

 

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July 10, 2019, 02:48:49 PM
Merited by Vadi2323 (1)
 #260

They were the victims of thieves who took advantage of weaknesses in the coins' respective code

Wrong,they were the victims of their own weak security and lack of seriousness in protecting their clients' funds, every POW coin is subject to being attacked, there is a little to nothing that can be done about it on a code level , some methods like the "delay function" proposed by zen may make the attack a bit harder and that's all about it, the biggest part of responsibility is on the exchange itself.

I feel like you just jumped in without reading much of the backstory on Monacoin's implementation of Lyra2REv2 because you just parroted what has been said ad nauseum already. Its like, no shit, they should have been on the lookout for irregularities in the blockchains of the coins they are trading. There's lots of things that can be done -- for starters, the Monacoin devs could fix their faulty calculation of difficulty retargetting, yet they never did. From Reddit:

Quote
The bug is the quite similar as Verge had a month ago. Increasing block age for deposits will not fix it, but increasing the block confirmations actually secures you from the attack aniway. Exchangers and online services should increase it above 100. (There is difference as in Verge the timestamp itself was faked - here a different algorithmic error plays role, which the developers must first find).

Monero DID make changes to their wallet software after a theoretical exploit was confirmed to exist and reported to developers by Livecoin. So what are you talking about "nothing to be done"...? Your statement is 100% inaccurate.

(stuff not worthy of response deleted)

tl;dr IMO Livecoin is not scam per se, but when investors lose their funds due to terrible security measures, it does not matter how you label them - they are as good as scammers, one does not have to directly steal your money, locking you out of your funds for saying stuff about them on Twitter or being too bad in protecting your funds are some great ways an exchange can follow to be considered a scam.

It really does matter how you label them. That's what labels are for. Despite the fact that OP is a prick and had months to withdrawal his coins (except for MONA, as nobody can), I still agree that's not a good excuse to lock him out of his account. I've said this from the very beginning. Don't know why you're again just repeating what has been said since the start.

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