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Author Topic: "Deportation vs. the Cost of Letting Illegal Immigrants Stay"  (Read 551 times)
TECSHARE (OP)
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July 13, 2019, 03:26:29 AM
 #1

Facts are facts.  72% of undocumented immigrants work compared to 60% of the entire population so they are actually an economic plus. If you normalize their status they can live above ground while paying full taxes.  Hearings are currently being scheduled for 2022 it is short term style housing but will be used long term and even as some of those people are sent home, they will just be replaced by a ballooning amount of more refugees.  

775 per day for four years is more than the average american makes in a lifetime.  Its over a million dollars.  The permanent recurring cost would be negative in the form of the income taxes 73% of these people would be paying if they were free.  The moral argument is clear, but there is no logical economic argument on your behalf.  Its not even close.  The cost of detaining these people is astronomical and we aren't even counting the money being spent "securing the border" and funding ICE which is money that could instead be spent replenishing the resources you say these people are a burden to.  

Since Flying Hellfish refuses to remove this off topic post, and I refuse to continue off topic in the original thread, I have decided to split this off into an on topic thread in order to respond.

You lack basic understanding of logic let alone economics. Your statistics are not only unsourced but consist mostly of non-sequiturs .There is a HUGE difference between a larger short term cost compared to a long term recurring cost. You are extrapolating a short term cost out perpetually as if it is a permanent cost when it is not. Illegal aliens are only temporarily being detained before deportation, they are not held forever in detention centers. This is the kind of logic toddlers can grasp but you seem to have problems with.




"Deportation vs. the Cost of Letting Illegal Immigrants Stay"

https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2017-07/deportation-vs-stay-costs.pdf

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July 13, 2019, 03:53:00 AM
 #2

How long will they stay in this temporary housing? Thats the issue.  At 775 per day, it only takes 3 months to reach the lifetime burden of a typical low-educated immigrant ($62,582, according to the study you just cited.).  Thats before we even get into the cost of all the extra security and legal fees.   
https://www.gq.com/story/trump-detention-camps-cost
Quote
t, “Well-educated households tend
to be net tax contributors.” But at the same time, “Poorly educated households, whether immigrant or U.S.-born, receive far
more in government benefits than they pay in taxes.” My own research has come to the same conclusion.18
Poorly educated people are a drain "whether immigrant or US born" which is why universal free education would be so beneficial for everyone anyway. You see , education is the IV in this relationship, not immigration.  Build more schools less jails.

Quote
Those with modest levels of education tend to earn low wages in the modern American economy, and as
a result tend to make low tax payments and often qualify for means-tested programs. The less-educated are a net fiscal drain,
on average, regardless of legal status or if they were born in the United States or a foreign country.
Lets just ignore the people who are paying them low wages, extracting their production, and not being taxed.  We should blame them and make them pay workers more of a fair share. That way, all those extra income taxes can be generated.  You see, the employers who pay poverty wages are the real drain on the economy.  This is what you call a scapegoat. 

Quote
s. In terms of the educational attainment of illegal immigrants, there is a good deal
of evidence that they have modest levels of education, much lower than native-born Americans or legal immigrants.
Its almost as if they are coming here for a better life!
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July 13, 2019, 05:46:22 AM
 #3

How long will they stay in this temporary housing? Thats the issue.  At 775 per day, it only takes 3 months to reach the lifetime burden of a typical low-educated immigrant ($62,582, according to the study you just cited.).  Thats before we even get into the cost of all the extra security and legal fees.   
https://www.gq.com/story/trump-detention-camps-cost
Quote
t, “Well-educated households tend
to be net tax contributors.” But at the same time, “Poorly educated households, whether immigrant or U.S.-born, receive far
more in government benefits than they pay in taxes.” My own research has come to the same conclusion.18
Poorly educated people are a drain "whether immigrant or US born" which is why universal free education would be so beneficial for everyone anyway. You see , education is the IV in this relationship, not immigration.  Build more schools less jails.

Quote
Those with modest levels of education tend to earn low wages in the modern American economy, and as
a result tend to make low tax payments and often qualify for means-tested programs. The less-educated are a net fiscal drain,
on average, regardless of legal status or if they were born in the United States or a foreign country.
Lets just ignore the people who are paying them low wages, extracting their production, and not being taxed.  We should blame them and make them pay workers more of a fair share. That way, all those extra income taxes can be generated.  You see, the employers who pay poverty wages are the real drain on the economy.  This is what you call a scapegoat. 

Quote
s. In terms of the educational attainment of illegal immigrants, there is a good deal
of evidence that they have modest levels of education, much lower than native-born Americans or legal immigrants.
Its almost as if they are coming here for a better life!

Three months is still two to three times longer than the average stay in detention. Furthermore your number of $775 daily cost is not only unsourced, but you state self contradictory costs in your own original statement.

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ICE%20FY18%20Budget.pdf

See page 12, the average stay in detention is 34-44 days. Even at your inflated and unsourced prices (which are not supported by the source above) it is still less costly to deport them.

Poorly educated people are a drain on the system, great, so why are we importing more of them instead of dealing with the ones already here? Cost is not the only problem with education. Some people simply are not capable or unwilling to educate themselves, this is a fact. You can send some one with down syndrome to Harvard for free, they are still going to have an IQ of 50 by the time they get out no matter how much money you throw at them.

Your argument about low wages is a non-sequitur. It doesn't matter how much blame they share, the negative effects of illegal immigration are still a fact. That is what you call a fallacy. It is almost as if you are telling the people already here who want a better life to go fuck themselves so you can feel generous at their expense!





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July 13, 2019, 06:28:10 AM
 #4

Facts are facts.  72% of undocumented immigrants work compared to 60% of the entire population so they are actually an economic plus. If you normalize their status they can live above ground while paying full taxes.  Hearings are currently being scheduled for 2022 it is short term style housing but will be used long term and even as some of those people are sent home, they will just be replaced by a ballooning amount of more refugees.  

775 per day for four years is more than the average american makes in a lifetime.  Its over a million dollars.  The permanent recurring cost would be negative in the form of the income taxes 73% of these people would be paying if they were free.  The moral argument is clear, but there is no logical economic argument on your behalf.  Its not even close.  The cost of detaining these people is astronomical and we aren't even counting the money being spent "securing the border" and funding ICE which is money that could instead be spent replenishing the resources you say these people are a burden to.  

Since Flying Hellfish refuses to remove this off topic post, and I refuse to continue off topic in the original thread, I have decided to split this off into an on topic thread in order to respond.

You lack basic understanding of logic let alone economics. Your statistics are not only unsourced but consist mostly of non-sequiturs .There is a HUGE difference between a larger short term cost compared to a long term recurring cost. You are extrapolating a short term cost out perpetually as if it is a permanent cost when it is not. Illegal aliens are only temporarily being detained before deportation, they are not held forever in detention centers. This is the kind of logic toddlers can grasp but you seem to have problems with.




"Deportation vs. the Cost of Letting Illegal Immigrants Stay"

https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2017-07/deportation-vs-stay-costs.pdf



lol the feds can't arrest gislhaine maxwell, do you think they can solve that? hehehe... dream... or  gaz light under the orange swine spell...

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July 13, 2019, 10:02:22 AM
 #5

How long will they stay in this temporary housing? Thats the issue.  At 775 per day, it only takes 3 months to reach the lifetime burden of a typical low-educated immigrant ($62,582, according to the study you just cited.).  Thats before we even get into the cost of all the extra security and legal fees.    
https://www.gq.com/story/trump-detention-camps-cost
Quote
t, “Well-educated households tend
to be net tax contributors.” But at the same time, “Poorly educated households, whether immigrant or U.S.-born, receive far
more in government benefits than they pay in taxes.” My own research has come to the same conclusion.18
Poorly educated people are a drain "whether immigrant or US born" which is why universal free education would be so beneficial for everyone anyway. You see , education is the IV in this relationship, not immigration.  Build more schools less jails.

Quote
Those with modest levels of education tend to earn low wages in the modern American economy, and as
a result tend to make low tax payments and often qualify for means-tested programs. The less-educated are a net fiscal drain,
on average, regardless of legal status or if they were born in the United States or a foreign country.
Lets just ignore the people who are paying them low wages, extracting their production, and not being taxed.  We should blame them and make them pay workers more of a fair share. That way, all those extra income taxes can be generated.  You see, the employers who pay poverty wages are the real drain on the economy.  This is what you call a scapegoat.  

Quote
s. In terms of the educational attainment of illegal immigrants, there is a good deal
of evidence that they have modest levels of education, much lower than native-born Americans or legal immigrants.
Its almost as if they are coming here for a better life!

Three months is still two to three times longer than the average stay in detention. Furthermore your number of $775 daily cost is not only unsourced, but you state self contradictory costs in your own original statement.

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ICE%20FY18%20Budget.pdf

See page 12, the average stay in detention is 34-44 days. Even at your inflated and unsourced prices (which are not supported by the source above) it is still less costly to deport them.

Poorly educated people are a drain on the system, great, so why are we importing more of them instead of dealing with the ones already here? Cost is not the only problem with education. Some people simply are not capable or unwilling to educate themselves, this is a fact. You can send some one with down syndrome to Harvard for free, they are still going to have an IQ of 50 by the time they get out no matter how much money you throw at them.

Your argument about low wages is a non-sequitur. It doesn't matter how much blame they share, the negative effects of illegal immigration are still a fact. That is what you call a fallacy. It is almost as if you are telling the people already here who want a better life to go fuck themselves so you can feel generous at their expense!






The 775 number was in the GQ link I posted.  Page 12 of that document had old data suggesting 34-44 days but those numbers were missing in the chart for recent years.

Lets look further at the NBC source that was cited in the GQ article
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/trump-admin-s-tent-cities-cost-more-keeping-migrant-kids-n884871?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top
Quote
The average stay for separated kids is nearly two months.
775 x 60 = 46,500.

So we are already over 2/3rd of the lifetime cost of absorbing a low-education immigrant after just 2 months of detention.  That is still  before legal costs and doesn't even mention that the children are placed in foster care for the rest of the pending time which also has costs.

Keep in mind, that these are not costs to produce something or have some sort of end product.  These are simply the financial costs to torture children in concentration camps.  The moral and psychological costs are much higher.  

I'd much rather spend that money building people up instead of tearing them down.
Quote
It is almost as if you are telling the people already here who want a better life to go fuck themselves so you can feel generous at their expense!
No I literally said universal education would be great for everyone.  If these monies were being spent on making free education available for everyone, spots would already be available for immigrants to fill.  Instead of scrambling to open up new detention facilities, we could educate the extra people at a significantly lower cost than torturing them.  As your article demonstrates, everyone benefits from more people with more education.  
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July 13, 2019, 04:34:05 PM
Last edit: July 13, 2019, 07:19:37 PM by TECSHARE
 #6

The 775 number was in the GQ link I posted.  Page 12 of that document had old data suggesting 34-44 days but those numbers were missing in the chart for recent years.

Lets look further at the NBC source that was cited in the GQ article
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/trump-admin-s-tent-cities-cost-more-keeping-migrant-kids-n884871?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top
Quote
The average stay for separated kids is nearly two months.
775 x 60 = 46,500.

So we are already over 2/3rd of the lifetime cost of absorbing a low-education immigrant after just 2 months of detention.  That is still  before legal costs and doesn't even mention that the children are placed in foster care for the rest of the pending time which also has costs.

Keep in mind, that these are not costs to produce something or have some sort of end product.  These are simply the financial costs to torture children in concentration camps.  The moral and psychological costs are much higher.  

I'd much rather spend that money building people up instead of tearing them down.
Quote
It is almost as if you are telling the people already here who want a better life to go fuck themselves so you can feel generous at their expense!
No I literally said universal education would be great for everyone.  If these monies were being spent on making free education available for everyone, spots would already be available for immigrants to fill.  Instead of scrambling to open up new detention facilities, we could educate the extra people at a significantly lower cost than torturing them.  As your article demonstrates, everyone benefits from more people with more education.  

Yes lets look closer at the NBC article:

"The cost of holding migrant children who have been separated from their parents in newly created "tent cities" is $775 per person per night, according to an official at the Department of Health and Human Services"

Unnamed "officials" are well known sources of reliable information are they? First of all you are wrong and pretending as if the fact that it is cheaper to deport them BY YOUR OWN NUMBERS is inconsequential. Second you extrapolate out extra costs for deportation other than what was included. That works both ways. The number was a VERY conservative estimate of costs for a LIFETIME of government entitlements like healthcare, food stamps, HUD subsidies, education, infrastructure wear, law enforcement, and on and on and on which are not all included in this "life time" number. You are wrong by your own numbers. You then defaulting to more arguments from a position of emotional manipulation doesn't change the situation either. These children are forced into this situation by the people who bring them here illegally, not the government. Using the word "torture" is way beyond hyperbole and is simply just a lie you came up with to distract from your total failure of an argument and your inability to meet the standards of your own premise.

As I already explained, there is a certain point where more money into education is not going to yield better results. Some people are simply unwilling, or incapable of being educated. Furthermore the burden on the existing educational system is extremely detrimental as everyone already here has all of their resources stretched very thin to compensate for all of the new people pumped into an already overburdened system, resulting in less people actually being educated total. The fact that you call yourself an educator is evidence enough that the education system is a joke and largely a fraud, and that money goes to paying Marxist ideologues like you to indoctrinate people instead of teaching them valuable skills like critical thinking, logic, and scientific method.
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July 13, 2019, 07:11:28 PM
 #7

How long will they stay in this temporary housing? Thats the issue.  At 775 per day, it only takes 3 months ....

I'd leave them there until they turn around and go back.
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July 14, 2019, 01:19:23 AM
 #8

The 775 number was in the GQ link I posted.  Page 12 of that document had old data suggesting 34-44 days but those numbers were missing in the chart for recent years.

Lets look further at the NBC source that was cited in the GQ article
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/trump-admin-s-tent-cities-cost-more-keeping-migrant-kids-n884871?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top
Quote
The average stay for separated kids is nearly two months.
775 x 60 = 46,500.

So we are already over 2/3rd of the lifetime cost of absorbing a low-education immigrant after just 2 months of detention.  That is still  before legal costs and doesn't even mention that the children are placed in foster care for the rest of the pending time which also has costs.

Keep in mind, that these are not costs to produce something or have some sort of end product.  These are simply the financial costs to torture children in concentration camps.  The moral and psychological costs are much higher.  

I'd much rather spend that money building people up instead of tearing them down.
Quote
It is almost as if you are telling the people already here who want a better life to go fuck themselves so you can feel generous at their expense!
No I literally said universal education would be great for everyone.  If these monies were being spent on making free education available for everyone, spots would already be available for immigrants to fill.  Instead of scrambling to open up new detention facilities, we could educate the extra people at a significantly lower cost than torturing them.  As your article demonstrates, everyone benefits from more people with more education.  

Yes lets look closer at the NBC article:

"The cost of holding migrant children who have been separated from their parents in newly created "tent cities" is $775 per person per night, according to an official at the Department of Health and Human Services"

Unnamed "officials" are well known sources of reliable information are they? First of all you are wrong and pretending as if the fact that it is cheaper to deport them BY YOUR OWN NUMBERS is inconsequential. Second you extrapolate out extra costs for deportation other than what was included. That works both ways. The number was a VERY conservative estimate of costs for a LIFETIME of government entitlements like healthcare, food stamps, HUD subsidies, education, infrastructure wear, law enforcement, and on and on and on which are not all included in this "life time" number. You are wrong by your own numbers. You then defaulting to more arguments from a position of emotional manipulation doesn't change the situation either. These children are forced into this situation by the people who bring them here illegally, not the government. Using the word "torture" is way beyond hyperbole and is simply just a lie you came up with to distract from your total failure of an argument and your inability to meet the standards of your own premise.

As I already explained, there is a certain point where more money into education is not going to yield better results. Some people are simply unwilling, or incapable of being educated. Furthermore the burden on the existing educational system is extremely detrimental as everyone already here has all of their resources stretched very thin to compensate for all of the new people pumped into an already overburdened system, resulting in less people actually being educated total. The fact that you call yourself an educator is evidence enough that the education system is a joke and largely a fraud, and that money goes to paying Marxist ideologues like you to indoctrinate people instead of teaching them valuable skills like critical thinking, logic, and scientific method.
Its not cheaper.

You're arguing that 46,500 for 2 months is cheaper than 65,000 for a lifetime.   Yes its a smaller number but I don't even know what to say to that.

Even if we assume they magically get through the courts (225,000 case backlog right now) and get deported, they are simply back where they started.  Nothing has been achieved/produced and all problems still exist.  All that money is literally wasted.  

The lifetime number actually accomplishes getting these people to safety, helping to solve the actual problem, and producing contributors to society.  Financial costs aren't the only costs but you aren't adding in all the money they and the kids will pay in taxes once they get better education which is difficult to calculate.   You're just assuming all immigrants will be a lifetime drain on society which is a racist/xenophobic pov.
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July 14, 2019, 03:17:51 AM
 #9

Its not cheaper.

You're arguing that 46,500 for 2 months is cheaper than 65,000 for a lifetime.   Yes its a smaller number but I don't even know what to say to that.

Even if we assume they magically get through the courts (225,000 case backlog right now) and get deported, they are simply back where they started.  Nothing has been achieved/produced and all problems still exist.  All that money is literally wasted.  

The lifetime number actually accomplishes getting these people to safety, helping to solve the actual problem, and producing contributors to society.  Financial costs aren't the only costs but you aren't adding in all the money they and the kids will pay in taxes once they get better education which is difficult to calculate.   You're just assuming all immigrants will be a lifetime drain on society which is a racist/xenophobic pov.

Sorry, but you aren't a Jedi Knight, and those are the illegal alien droids we are looking for. It is observable fact it is cheaper. You don't even know what to say to that is another way of saying you are wrong but still insist on arguing for your ideology in absence of a logical argument. It is not the US taxpayers or the US government's job to care for EVERY FUCKING PERSON on the planet. That is not just an insane abuse against everyone who lives here legally and pays into that system, but totally not logistically possible.

You are just pulling rabbits out of your ass to imagineer some unnamed unquanitfiable benefit that maybe might manifest in the far off future while the people here now are struggling with resources already stretched thin. You are literally making people here in this nation suffer so that you can feel better about yourself like a revolting self centered piece of virtue signalling shit as you accuse me of being racist to cover up for your complete ignorance. You are motivated only by emotion and logic is secondary if it is considered at all. Emotion doesn't fill bellies and keep people warm, logic does.
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July 14, 2019, 03:58:54 PM
 #10

It is not the US taxpayers or the US government's job to care for EVERY FUCKING PERSON on the planet. That is not just an insane abuse against everyone who lives here legally and pays into that system, but totally not logistically possible.
You're going to be really upset when you find out what the US military and intelligence services have been trying to do all over the planet.  
 

We aren't talking about everyone on the planet.  The US government's job is to care for everyone in the US and these people have come to the US mostly to escape danger or otherwise unlivable conditions.  That is why they have to come here on their own.  Its not our job to bring them here but now that they are here, we need to make the best of a bad situation.    Taking people who have sought refuge in this country and placing them back into danger is wholly irresponsible and only makes the situation worse.  
Quote
You are motivated only by emotion and logic is secondary if it is considered at all.
Its an emotional argument. Intelligence without emotions like guilt, self-doubt and remorse is psychopathic.  Of course emotions dictate everything I do.  Morals and ethics need to be put first.  People caring about everyone else involved. Thats the basis for a functioning society.  You can't just use logic to make every decision based on "what would be the best direct result for me?"

Our resources aren't stretched then. We've barely tapped into them.  This is the richest nation in the history of the world. People are suffering because of hoarding.  We can take in immigrants AND create programs that reduce suffering for all people here.  You should know better than anyone that I am advocating for both.   Stop using immigrants as a scapegoat.  

I didn't say you were a racist I said assuming all immigrants will be a liftetime drain is a racist/xenophobic point of view.
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July 14, 2019, 04:03:13 PM
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 #11

It's ridiculous how it works, I had a friend when I used to work at McDonald's who was caught here illegally. They put him in jail and there was a date that ICE could come and deport him, otherwise they would let him go. He stayed in county jail for 3 months and then was taken on the last day. So not only were dollars funneled into holding him in a cell, but then they ultimately deported him anyway, its just ridiculous and stupid system.

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July 14, 2019, 07:56:34 PM
Last edit: July 14, 2019, 08:52:15 PM by squatz1
 #12

It's ridiculous how it works, I had a friend when I used to work at McDonald's who was caught here illegally. They put him in jail and there was a date that ICE could come and deport him, otherwise they would let him go. He stayed in county jail for 3 months and then was taken on the last day. So not only were dollars funneled into holding him in a cell, but then they ultimately deported him anyway, its just ridiculous and stupid system.

Great system right? We're arresting people, telling them on a court date that ICE is going to come and deport them and then most people don't show up. We've wasted tons of resources with the judge, the ICE members involved in arresting him originally and then the ICE members going to get him at the end.

There's no reason for this sort of system if ICE knows that this person is being deported. What should be done is you should send them to the deportation facility INSTANTLY. No BS in between.

OR at least get a judge on the line ASAP to determine if the person is going to be deported. Either ICE loves job security and wants to waste tons of time, or US POLITICIANS (DEMOCRATS) are the ones at fault.

We also have another issue in the US, the fact that US businesses need to be heavily penalized for hiring illegal immigrants (if they do so knowingly)





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KingScorpio
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July 14, 2019, 08:06:38 PM
Last edit: July 14, 2019, 08:27:50 PM by KingScorpio
 #13

Facts are facts.  72% of undocumented immigrants work compared to 60% of the entire population so they are actually an economic plus. If you normalize their status they can live above ground while paying full taxes.  Hearings are currently being scheduled for 2022 it is short term style housing but will be used long term and even as some of those people are sent home, they will just be replaced by a ballooning amount of more refugees.  

775 per day for four years is more than the average american makes in a lifetime.  Its over a million dollars.  The permanent recurring cost would be negative in the form of the income taxes 73% of these people would be paying if they were free.  The moral argument is clear, but there is no logical economic argument on your behalf.  Its not even close.  The cost of detaining these people is astronomical and we aren't even counting the money being spent "securing the border" and funding ICE which is money that could instead be spent replenishing the resources you say these people are a burden to.  

Since Flying Hellfish refuses to remove this off topic post, and I refuse to continue off topic in the original thread, I have decided to split this off into an on topic thread in order to respond.

You lack basic understanding of logic let alone economics. Your statistics are not only unsourced but consist mostly of non-sequiturs .There is a HUGE difference between a larger short term cost compared to a long term recurring cost. You are extrapolating a short term cost out perpetually as if it is a permanent cost when it is not. Illegal aliens are only temporarily being detained before deportation, they are not held forever in detention centers. This is the kind of logic toddlers can grasp but you seem to have problems with.




"Deportation vs. the Cost of Letting Illegal Immigrants Stay"

https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2017-07/deportation-vs-stay-costs.pdf



immigrants only work as long as there is a police that protects property, nations form according to politicial allignment

our human understanding of "geographic states" is fading away.

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July 17, 2019, 08:05:45 AM
 #14

In the USA, if a man stands in the courts as a man, harm or damage must be proven against him. Not so with a person. A person is under all the rest of the laws if the judge says so. The judge will always try to bring a man into the status of a person... under his control.

This goes for illegals. If they knew it, they could talk the judge into letting them stay.

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July 17, 2019, 03:24:51 PM
 #15

US should scale up their deportation efforts to bring the costs down.

BTW, there is no such thing as illegal immigration. Immigration is a legal process to obtain residency.

What we are talking about is illegal border crossers, not illegal immigration.  They should be charged and deported. End of story.

Mr.Ease
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July 17, 2019, 07:56:00 PM
 #16

US should scale up their deportation efforts to bring the costs down.

BTW, there is no such thing as illegal immigration. Immigration is a legal process to obtain residency.

What we are talking about is illegal border crossers, not illegal immigration.  They should be charged and deported. End of story.

Finally someone speaks some reality.
Im getting tired of hearing all this leftist talk of open border policies making America the new gold rush opportunity...

While im getting fined for having NO healthcare, these illegals get it for free? Dafuq?

Our communities have problems already not getting fixed. Adding all these illegals is jist rediculous

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July 18, 2019, 02:30:08 AM
 #17

US should scale up their deportation efforts to bring the costs down.

BTW, there is no such thing as illegal immigration. Immigration is a legal process to obtain residency.

What we are talking about is illegal border crossers, not illegal immigration.  They should be charged and deported. End of story.

Finally someone speaks some reality.
Im getting tired of hearing all this leftist talk of open border policies making America the new gold rush opportunity...

While im getting fined for having NO healthcare, these illegals get it for free? Dafuq?

Our communities have problems already not getting fixed. Adding all these illegals is jist rediculous
See this is what [THEY] want.  Instead of being angry at the people making you pay a fine, you are angry at other poor people who are in a worse position than you.  In reality, everyone should be getting the healthcare for free and no one should be paying fines but its better for them to tricking you into  scapegoating immigrants.
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July 18, 2019, 06:08:32 AM
 #18

It is not the US taxpayers or the US government's job to care for EVERY FUCKING PERSON on the planet. That is not just an insane abuse against everyone who lives here legally and pays into that system, but totally not logistically possible.
You're going to be really upset when you find out what the US military and intelligence services have been trying to do all over the planet.  
 

We aren't talking about everyone on the planet.  The US government's job is to care for everyone in the US and these people have come to the US mostly to escape danger or otherwise unlivable conditions.  That is why they have to come here on their own.  Its not our job to bring them here but now that they are here, we need to make the best of a bad situation.    Taking people who have sought refuge in this country and placing them back into danger is wholly irresponsible and only makes the situation worse.  
Quote
You are motivated only by emotion and logic is secondary if it is considered at all.
Its an emotional argument. Intelligence without emotions like guilt, self-doubt and remorse is psychopathic.  Of course emotions dictate everything I do.  Morals and ethics need to be put first.  People caring about everyone else involved. Thats the basis for a functioning society.  You can't just use logic to make every decision based on "what would be the best direct result for me?"

Our resources aren't stretched then. We've barely tapped into them.  This is the richest nation in the history of the world. People are suffering because of hoarding.  We can take in immigrants AND create programs that reduce suffering for all people here.  You should know better than anyone that I am advocating for both.   Stop using immigrants as a scapegoat.  

I didn't say you were a racist I said assuming all immigrants will be a liftetime drain is a racist/xenophobic point of view.

What the fuck are you talking about? US military an intelligence services are trying to feed, house, and medically treat everyone on Earth? Yeah, k. These people have come here to escape POVERTY and they are illegally abusing the ASYLUM process designed for people ACTUALLY escaping conflict in order to migrate here for ECONOMIC reasons. Not enforcing out nations borders is wholly irresponsible, and the situation of other nations and its resident nationals is NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE USA. Just allowing millions of impoverished people to flood in is not going to help them and it certainly is not going to help the already existing residents of the USA, and fuck you for putting them above everyone already here as you wag your finger bathed in your self righteousness. It is easy to be generous with every one else's resources isn't it?

Our resources aren't stretched thin? Is this the kind of economic genius you applied to calling anyone who makes more than $300k a year "super wealthy". Don't have any argument? Just lie and pretend there is no problem, problem solved. I am sure the teachers teaching overfilled classes filled with illegal immigrant children would agree we have plenty of resources. I am sure the millions of homeless already here on the streets would agree our resources aren't stretched thin as well. Fuck everyone who needs help already here right? It is your right to take those collective resources and hand them out to people who never paid into our system! After all, you think any form of nationalism is fascist, so the nation should fall according to you shouldn't it? Also it makes you feel generous, and that is what is most important, that you feel good about yourself right?

Emotions are not a substitute for logic, and you can't make every decision based on "what would be the best direct result to inflate MY ego and make ME feel most generous?" This isn't just what is best for me, this is what is best for the whole fucking country, and fuck you very much with your moral grand standing. I never said anything about "all immigrants", here you are purposely conflating all immigration with illegal immigration again to try to turn this into a race issue. First of all it is a fact illegal immigrants take more from they system than they put in. A FACT. It has nothing to do with race or even nationality. Second of all, xenophobia is just a synonym for racism, so again, you are just calling me racist because I think our nation should have borders that are enforced.

See this is what [THEY] want.  Instead of being angry at the people making you pay a fine, you are angry at other poor people who are in a worse position than you.  In reality, everyone should be getting the healthcare for free and no one should be paying fines but its better for them to tricking you into  scapegoating immigrants.

Who the fuck is "they"? Most people who don't like illegal immigration aren't angry at illegal immigrants. If they are angry at anyone they are angry at people like YOU being so magnanimous and generous with all of our collective resources on their behalf. Is it really generous if you are giving away something some one else sacrificed for or are you just a destructive virtue signalling narcissist encouraging this rightfully illegal activity?
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July 18, 2019, 02:13:18 PM
 #19

You should know better than anyone that I am advocating for both.   Stop using immigrants as a scapegoat.  

What the fuck are you talking about? US military an intelligence services are trying to feed, house, and medically treat everyone on Earth? Yeah, k. These people have come here to escape POVERTY and they are illegally abusing the ASYLUM process designed for people ACTUALLY escaping conflict in order to migrate here for ECONOMIC reasons. Not enforcing out nations borders is wholly irresponsible, and the situation of other nations and its resident nationals is NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE USA. Just allowing millions of impoverished people to flood in is not going to help them and it certainly is not going to help the already existing residents of the USA, and fuck you for putting them above everyone already here as you wag your finger bathed in your self righteousness. It is easy to be generous with every one else's resources isn't it?

Our resources aren't stretched thin? Is this the kind of economic genius you applied to calling anyone who makes more than $300k a year "super wealthy". Don't have any argument? Just lie and pretend there is no problem, problem solved. I am sure the teachers teaching overfilled classes filled with illegal immigrant children would agree we have plenty of resources. I am sure the millions of homeless already here on the streets would agree our resources aren't stretched thin as well. Fuck everyone who needs help already here right? It is your right to take those collective resources and hand them out to people who never paid into our system! After all, you think any form of nationalism is fascist, so the nation should fall according to you shouldn't it? Also it makes you feel generous, and that is what is most important, that you feel good about yourself right?

Emotions are not a substitute for logic, and you can't make every decision based on "what would be the best direct result to inflate MY ego and make ME feel most generous?" This isn't just what is best for me, this is what is best for the whole fucking country, and fuck you very much with your moral grand standing. I never said anything about "all immigrants", here you are purposely conflating all immigration with illegal immigration again to try to turn this into a race issue. First of all it is a fact illegal immigrants take more from they system than they put in. A FACT. It has nothing to do with race or even nationality. Second of all, xenophobia is just a synonym for racism, so again, you are just calling me racist because I think our nation should have borders that are enforced.

See this is what [THEY] want.  Instead of being angry at the people making you pay a fine, you are angry at other poor people who are in a worse position than you.  In reality, everyone should be getting the healthcare for free and no one should be paying fines but its better for them to tricking you into  scapegoating immigrants.

Who the fuck is "they"? Most people who don't like illegal immigration aren't angry at illegal immigrants. If they are angry at anyone they are angry at people like YOU being so magnanimous and generous with all of our collective resources on their behalf. Is it really generous if you are giving away something some one else sacrificed for or are you just a destructive virtue signalling narcissist encouraging this rightfully illegal activity?
We are providing expensive security for people and places much further away.  These people are on our doorstep.  If our resources were ever close to being stretched too thing, then we would need to go back to letting our military be about defense and close all the bases around the world and bring home the 165,000 troops stationed in 150 countries.  Thats a ton of resources going to provide security to a lot of people who are better off than many Americans.  

Just because I said our resources aren't stretched too thin doesn't mean I think they are properly allocated.  Suddenly now you care about education, housing and healthcare for people here when those are things I've been pushing for in nearly every thread and you have been the main one claiming everyone doesn't deserve those things.  
Quote
Fuck everyone who needs help already here right? It is your right to take those collective resources and hand them out to people who never paid into our system!
As you can see from the original quote on top, my goal has always been to help both.  I don't separate people as immigrants vs americans and think they all deserve things I consider human rights.  The cool part is that once they have education and healthcare, they will be in a position where they will work, expand the economy and more than carry their weight in taxes. You've gotta think about the big picture.  
Quote
This isn't just what is best for me, this is what is best for the whole fucking country, and fuck you very much with your moral grand standing.
but even now you have an imaginary border around the people you want the best for.  caring only about people who are in your family, close to you, or in your geographic region is only a small expansion from only caring about yourself.   "Fuck everyone who happened to be born outside of that imaginary boundary" is your POV and theres a difference between being a racist and holding a racist point of view. I wouldn't say you are racist based on this point of view but I wouldn't rule it out either.  
Quote
I never said anything about "all immigrants", here you are purposely conflating all immigration with illegal immigration again to try to turn this into a race issue. First of all it is a fact illegal immigrants take more from they system than they put in. A FACT.
I'm all for reforming the system so that these people have a legal way to flow into the country.  If we made legal immigration from the South easier and more accessible for people in duress, we could be harsh on illegal immigrants.  You don't get to decide if their claim to asylum should be approved.  They have a right to come here, enter, and claim it.   Ellis Island had a 98% acceptance rate and granted citizenship within as little as a few hours and no more than a few weeks.  That should show you that Immigration from poverty could be a lot easier than it is today

[THEY] are the wealthy capitaiist class who set the rules and benefit from turning working class people against each other.  They are the ones who are sucking up all of the resources.  They are the reason why people in the richest country in the history of the world go without adequate housing, healthcare or education.  Keeping poor people from central America out wouldn't alleviate that one bit.   Its a separate fight.  Just because something is legal/illegal doesn't make it right. Nuremburg laws were legal, slavery was legal.  Stop using legality as an argument.  Might does not mean right.
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July 19, 2019, 10:54:13 PM
 #20

....You don't get to decide if their claim to asylum should be approved.  They have a right to come here, enter, and claim it.  ....

Yes, we certainly do.

And no, they don't have a right.

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