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Author Topic: CipherTrace Enters Race to Solve Crypto's FATF Compliance Headache  (Read 285 times)
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September 15, 2019, 11:25:38 PM
Merited by malevolent (2), Stedsm (1)
 #21

Right, they going to like "flex" their muscle again, maybe ala BTC-E seizure most likely in the future. Interpol/EUROPOL also have this sort of mentality as in the case of Bestmixer.io last May.

I don't think the BTC-e seizure went at all like the US government was hoping. In many ways, it was an embarrassment. They weren't able to seize any funds up front, arresting Vinnik netted absolutely nothing, and BTC-e reemerged a month or so later. That experience probably showed the DOJ how difficult it is to target crypto services who are scattered across many borders, and who employ proper operational security. I believe the US government has wanted to take down Bitfinex for years -- the DOJ and CFTC have been investigating them since at least 2017 and probably earlier. That they haven't suggests that they can't, at least not yet.

Targeting mixers (who don't even touch fiat money) is even more problematic for governments. An honest mixer can easily recover from authorities shutting down clearnet domains or seizing servers. New infrastructure can be built within days and proper encryption would protect all customer funds in the meantime.

But the Bestmixer case -- and subsequent disappearance of BitBlender -- highlights the biggest problem for us: Law enforcement temporarily shutting down a mixer creates an opportunity for them to exit scam.

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September 17, 2019, 07:45:16 PM
 #22

It sounds more like Ciphertrace's proposed TRISA is in place for exchanges to align with their KYC?
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September 19, 2019, 10:14:44 PM
 #23

Right, they going to like "flex" their muscle again, maybe ala BTC-E seizure most likely in the future. Interpol/EUROPOL also have this sort of mentality as in the case of Bestmixer.io last May.

I don't think the BTC-e seizure went at all like the US government was hoping. In many ways, it was an embarrassment. They weren't able to seize any funds up front, arresting Vinnik netted absolutely nothing, and BTC-e reemerged a month or so later. That experience probably showed the DOJ how difficult it is to target crypto services who are scattered across many borders, and who employ proper operational security. I believe the US government has wanted to take down Bitfinex for years -- the DOJ and CFTC have been investigating them since at least 2017 and probably earlier. That they haven't suggests that they can't, at least not yet.

Targeting mixers (who don't even touch fiat money) is even more problematic for governments. An honest mixer can easily recover from authorities shutting down clearnet domains or seizing servers. New infrastructure can be built within days and proper encryption would protect all customer funds in the meantime.

But the Bestmixer case -- and subsequent disappearance of BitBlender -- highlights the biggest problem for us: Law enforcement temporarily shutting down a mixer creates an opportunity for them to exit scam.

I am almost positive Ciphertrace's technology can still trace movements of transactions even after they've gone through a mixer
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September 19, 2019, 10:37:52 PM
 #24

Targeting mixers (who don't even touch fiat money) is even more problematic for governments. An honest mixer can easily recover from authorities shutting down clearnet domains or seizing servers. New infrastructure can be built within days and proper encryption would protect all customer funds in the meantime.

But the Bestmixer case -- and subsequent disappearance of BitBlender -- highlights the biggest problem for us: Law enforcement temporarily shutting down a mixer creates an opportunity for them to exit scam.

I am almost positive Ciphertrace's technology can still trace movements of transactions even after they've gone through a mixer

That's possible to an extent, particularly mixers that are using outdated and broken algorithms. However, if companies like Ciphertrace could conclusively break all mixers, governments would simply surveil mixers rather than trying to shut them down.

Either way, this is irrelevant to the larger point, which is: Governments can't shut down mixers. They can only shut down domains and seize servers. These are small, temporary setbacks.

Of course, nobody was arrested in the Bestmixer case. They just disappeared with everyone's money. Same with Bitblender. These were exit scams.

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September 19, 2019, 10:41:42 PM
 #25

It sure is. I won't lie, this is probably going to end with lots of disgruntled exchange customers, frozen money, closed accounts, unexpected law enforcement investigations, etc. I've always been extremely careful to ensure that anything touching my Coinbase account is unimpeachable. Unfortunately with the way things are headed, we'll need to employ that sort of caution to most services -- maybe even lower tier exchanges registered in random island nations. You just never know.

So people are going to self-police themselves even without legal pressure? Undecided

I am almost positive Ciphertrace's technology can still trace movements of transactions even after they've gone through a mixer

I am not. It most likely depends on the mixer used and on each individual case.

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September 19, 2019, 10:59:49 PM
 #26

It sure is. I won't lie, this is probably going to end with lots of disgruntled exchange customers, frozen money, closed accounts, unexpected law enforcement investigations, etc. I've always been extremely careful to ensure that anything touching my Coinbase account is unimpeachable. Unfortunately with the way things are headed, we'll need to employ that sort of caution to most services -- maybe even lower tier exchanges registered in random island nations. You just never know.

So people are going to self-police themselves even without legal pressure? Undecided

After what Bitstamp, HitBTC, Changelly, Freewallet and others have done it's only common sense. Lots of services already employ selective KYC scams under the guise of similar AML regulations. We can only expect things to get worse as the regulatory burdens pile on.

In this environment, people should obviously avoid third parties wherever possible. Otherwise, they should at least be aware that every satoshi they've deposited might be put under a microscope, with proof of source of funds demanded for every bit.

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September 19, 2019, 11:36:50 PM
Last edit: September 19, 2019, 11:48:03 PM by gentlemand
Merited by malevolent (1), Stedsm (1)
 #27

After what Bitstamp, HitBTC, Changelly, Freewallet and others have done it's only common sense. Lots of services already employ selective KYC scams under the guise of similar AML regulations. We can only expect things to get worse as the regulatory burdens pile on.

I've long fucked off Bitstamp and not for one second did I ever entertain those other services mentioned.

I plan on only two routes back to fiat should I ever require it.

The first is OTC for significant amounts. Why anyone would use a bog standard exchange for a decent sum is beyond me. I do not intend to wind up as a ticket number with no way of accessing money. A competent OTC deal will sort any question marks before the exchange proceeds. That's the way ALL crypto to fiat services should operate with no exceptions.

For the day to day fripperies I'll stick with crypto debit cards. They may cost a little more but if they croak it's no big deal, they never go anywhere near my bank and nothing more than piddling sums is placed on them.

I find it weird that exchanges dominate everyone's thinking when they're the shittest and most dangerous option by a country mile.
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September 20, 2019, 11:47:20 PM
 #28

After what Bitstamp, HitBTC, Changelly, Freewallet and others have done it's only common sense. Lots of services already employ selective KYC scams under the guise of similar AML regulations. We can only expect things to get worse as the regulatory burdens pile on.

I've long fucked off Bitstamp and not for one second did I ever entertain those other services mentioned.

Even I've never went through these services except HitBTC that wanted me to do KYC for no freaking reasons and being the shittiest of all exchanges, but I needed to give out my details just to get my money moved.

Quote
I plan on only two routes back to fiat should I ever require it.

The first is OTC for significant amounts. Why anyone would use a bog standard exchange for a decent sum is beyond me. I do not intend to wind up as a ticket number with no way of accessing money. A competent OTC deal will sort any question marks before the exchange proceeds. That's the way ALL crypto to fiat services should operate with no exceptions.


The best advantage in our hands here - I try to find reliable traders with broader background in the field of trading Bitcoins and trade with them only (directly) rather than transferring my coins to an exchange, waiting for the deposit to confirm, waiting for a trader to buy my coins (and that takes a lot of time because it's all done partially and not in one shot) and finally, the hassle of releasing them, all with the so-called KYC regulations to be abide by as there's "No KYC, No Trading allowed" policy here.

Quote
For the day to day fripperies I'll stick with crypto debit cards. They may cost a little more but if they croak it's no big deal, they never go anywhere near my bank and nothing more than piddling sums is placed on them.

I'm afraid I can't get a debit card to use in my country knowing that the heat to stopping crypto here has taken an enormous form, but all I do for nominal things like buying groceries online to doing recharges and even paying my bills, I simply sell my BTC to the trader, give the bill details and/or number to recharge upon and get it done almost immediately without any issues.

Quote
I find it weird that exchanges dominate everyone's thinking when they're the shittest and most dangerous option by a country mile.


Exchanges are dominating because they've got volumes (whether real or fake) and that's why they've taken over the OTC deals at a higher pace these days. I wouldn't prefer giving my details to any shady exchange (even the most reputed one) just because they won't let me withdraw my money, but would rather prefer going out of the box and remain private (not so safe if the trader turns out bad).

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September 21, 2019, 11:44:05 AM
 #29

Purpose of the Travel Rule:
" The Rule was created to help law enforcement agencies detect, investigate and prosecute money laundering and other financial crimes by preserving an information trail about persons sending and receiving funds through funds transfer systems." Source : https://medium.com/@sashahodler/the-fincen-travel-rule-d9e6e2cd8b28

My take on this is a little bit different, because I think it was created to have full control over people's financial data and to use this as a tool to collect more income tax for the government.

The Money laundering and terrorism funding nonsense is just used as a scare tactic to influence people to give up control over their financial privacy.  Roll Eyes
Yeah, it's nice that someone is trying to make it possible to comply with the requirements using cryptocurrencies. I think it what CipherTrace does can be very useful to exchanges and other businesses that don't won't troubles with the authorities. If we look at it from the user's standpoint, however, this is not a good thing, because there aren't many sponsors of terrorists or financial scammers among us, but we are required to give away so much data about us nevertheless. This is just not fair and also impractical to fight crimes. It would make more sense to come up with certain requirements, based on the analysis of the known cases of crimes, under which the travel rule should apply. Otherwise the investigators will just drown is data and be too tempted to use it for other purposes.

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September 23, 2019, 11:52:21 PM
 #30

I know a few companies are working to aid in compliance. Although I find Ciphertrace's to make the most sense in regards to privacy
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