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Author Topic: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars  (Read 1983 times)
Technomage
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September 05, 2019, 05:54:22 PM
 #141

So you are pricing these bars on your website based upon auction prices realized here for the low edition number examples?  Shouldn't it just be cost plus a reasonable margin?  

Spot gold is around $1550 USD.  A $1000 USD premium is really excessive.  I could understand $400-$500, but $1000 for non 1-5 numbered bars feels excessive.  

Note that when you auction the 1/2 BTC gold coins, they typically go for something close to spot, but you still have them marked at a heavier premium on your site.

And for what it's worth, I have bought several items from Denarium over the past few years.  Happy to provide you the details privately to corroborate.  I've never been offered a discount code or coupon.  So not sure how that works.

We price only the gold plated coins in this "cost + reasonable margin" manner. All the other coins/bars are limited edition collectibles, which we price on the perceived attractiveness of the product for collectors. Due to this the prices might sometimes also change drastically if we were wrong on our perceptions. Note that it takes a huge amount of man hours to get these products out and usually it's 6 months or something for a 100 piece series. In addition we've done a lot of website development, statistics improvements, coin database improvements etc.

Additionally our company has no problem holding the gold, we see it as a good place to hold value. So we're not in a hurry to empty the reserves. Also if we sell them too cheap we might end up in a situation where we're not selling anything for 6 months (has happened before).

These products are not comparable to regular investment gold, they are special collectibles. This one is probably the best one we've come up with so far. Which is why the initial premium is higher than in our other gold products.

As for discount codes, we rarely offer them by our initiative but often give them if a customer asks. The email is store@denarium.com. They are given if a customer is making a major order or has just recently bought something and is buying again. We don't give them for one-off purchases.

Our marketing at Denarium is not the best, we probably would be better off providing these codes to regulars on our initiative. Something to work on, for sure.

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Technomage
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September 05, 2019, 05:57:28 PM
 #142

@Technomage:

maybe you guys could develop the auction on your own website. Should not take long dev to set up.

then, I am also customer some time, buying once a year for 4 y now, but do not recall any discount codes. Sad
maybe you could DM me one if poss? Cheers

We've thought of setting up our own auction system for a while, but it hasn't been a dev priority. So we're sticking with this for the time being.

As for discounts please email store@denarium.com and we can probably figure out something. Smiley

New Denarium Decennium Gold Bar now on sale! Check it out from here!
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September 05, 2019, 05:58:39 PM
 #143

I got my pitchfork out and agree it looked very shady but based on my investigation (with evidence I won't share publicly for privacy reasons), here's what I think happened:

1. Denarium sent an e-mail to all of their listservs which attracted some people who aren't regulars here. This also explains why they always show up here for just his auctions.
2. They are not regulars here so they screwed up the auction.
3. Denarium allowed them to screw up the auction with his weird rule change and takes the vast majority of the blame.
4. The bidders in the thread are not shills.

Obviously I have 0 tolerance for auction shenanigans and I think the auction should've been re-run. It's also important that we police these auctions because the possibility of scams/fraud is very real.

I'm just trying to warn against lambasting the newbie accounts because at least some of them are definitely real people. I don't think they really stand to gain from the issues with this auction and some of them could eventually become members of this community if we don't scare them off.

Thanks, it's nice to receive some other feedback than 100% shit. I'm quite okay in taking the blame for the auction underbids / rules fuckup and I truly apologize for that. But I'm not at all okay with the shilling accusations. That is not something we do.

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September 05, 2019, 06:01:13 PM
Last edit: September 05, 2019, 06:13:58 PM by omicron1
 #144


That's how you handled this auction.
You managed to piss of the whole bct coin collector community.
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September 05, 2019, 06:51:36 PM
Merited by Technomage (5), pk1978 (1)
 #145

I did get an e-mail from Denarium, with a link to this auction. This e-mail was probably sent to a wide audience with vast majority not being regulars or not interested at all in Bitcointalk or its Collectibles section. There are crypto collectibles buyers and collectors outside this Collectibles community, sometimes this is forgotten by regulars here... BTCC had newbie bidders as well and everyone knew that they were mostly Chinese people who do not use these forums. Like with BTCC, Denarium should be reputable enough already to be known to not employ any shilling or anything like that.

I see absolutely nothing shady in these newbie bidders when they are vouched by Technomage/Denarium to be legit, and I actually wonder why regulars here do not take this vouching seriously and keep questioning it. Denarium has been in business since 2012 and is a very reputable company. Regarding their company owners bidding or buying their items.. Well, there are loads of small owners, myself included, and there should be nothing shady or controversial in that either. I can see how this could be controversial, but in this case it is not as everyone is treated the same and big owners of the company are not bidding, AFAIK.

Regarding these auction events, I think it should be implied by "auction" that bids cannot be lowered. I.e. you can't cancel a bid if it's a winning bid. Especially when this is not stated in the auction. Of course obviously erroneous bids should be cancelled/invalidated though.

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September 05, 2019, 06:57:43 PM
Merited by Technomage (5)
 #146


That's how you handled this auction.
You managed to piss of the whole bct coin collector community.

well, with all due respect, its absolutely not true.

Denarium is still the 2nd best physical btc out there (imho, after Casascius),
not sure any other physical coin offers multisig solution,
so all in all this fuck up with the auction did not lower the value of their items in my eyes.
 
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September 05, 2019, 07:03:41 PM
 #147

So you are pricing these bars on your website based upon auction prices realized here for the low edition number examples?  Shouldn't it just be cost plus a reasonable margin?  

Spot gold is around $1550 USD.  A $1000 USD premium is really excessive.  I could understand $400-$500, but $1000 for non 1-5 numbered bars feels excessive.  

Note that when you auction the 1/2 BTC gold coins, they typically go for something close to spot, but you still have them marked at a heavier premium on your site.

And for what it's worth, I have bought several items from Denarium over the past few years.  Happy to provide you the details privately to corroborate.  I've never been offered a discount code or coupon.  So not sure how that works.

We price only the gold plated coins in this "cost + reasonable margin" manner. All the other coins/bars are limited edition collectibles, which we price on the perceived attractiveness of the product for collectors. Due to this the prices might sometimes also change drastically if we were wrong on our perceptions. Note that it takes a huge amount of man hours to get these products out and usually it's 6 months or something for a 100 piece series. In addition we've done a lot of website development, statistics improvements, coin database improvements etc.

Additionally our company has no problem holding the gold, we see it as a good place to hold value. So we're not in a hurry to empty the reserves. Also if we sell them too cheap we might end up in a situation where we're not selling anything for 6 months (has happened before).

These products are not comparable to regular investment gold, they are special collectibles. This one is probably the best one we've come up with so far. Which is why the initial premium is higher than in our other gold products.

As for discount codes, we rarely offer them by our initiative but often give them if a customer asks. The email is store@denarium.com. They are given if a customer is making a major order or has just recently bought something and is buying again. We don't give them for one-off purchases.

Our marketing at Denarium is not the best, we probably would be better off providing these codes to regulars on our initiative. Something to work on, for sure.

So that was a long way of saying you are arbitrarily overpricing these.  Thank you for confirming.

It's also interesting to learn that you only give discounts to whales who can afford a "major order".  For the record I have ordered often (very recently in fact), not just once, and never received a code.  Guess I know why.
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September 05, 2019, 07:15:38 PM
 #148


That's how you handled this auction.
You managed to piss of the whole bct coin collector community.

well, with all due respect, its absolutely not true.

Denarium is still the 2nd best physical btc out there (imho, after Casascius),
not sure any other physical coin offers multisig solution,
so all in all this fuck up with the auction did not lower the value of their items in my eyes.
 

Respect noted, and it's absolutely true since rules were changed in the middle of the auction, you can't do that, they know that, everybody knows that.
- 2nd best? I disagree, although I like this one piece.
- Multisig? Why?
- If you feel like buying 1100 dollar over spot then that's your choice.
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September 05, 2019, 07:30:33 PM
 #149

It's also interesting to learn that you only give discounts to whales who can afford a "major order".  For the record I have ordered often (very recently in fact), not just once, and never received a code.  Guess I know why.

Don't misunderstand what I said. We give custom discount codes to regular customers or customers making a large order but only if asked. At least this is how it has been so far. So feel free to ask about it, and you'll get a discount.  Kiss

New Denarium Decennium Gold Bar now on sale! Check it out from here!
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September 05, 2019, 08:02:30 PM
 #150

I just hope collectors will just stop buying your substantially overpriced and far too often, subpar products.  (2017 silver nightmares...... extremely SUBPAR, milk spots anyone?)  You’d think a seller gouging his/her buyers would make sure all their products were top notch.  I mean even this bar is stamped with 999 and labeled 9999.  Awesome quality control.

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September 05, 2019, 11:12:22 PM
Last edit: September 05, 2019, 11:29:42 PM by Technomage
 #151

I just hope collectors will just stop buying your substantially overpriced and far too often, subpar products.  (2017 silver nightmares...... extremely SUBPAR, milk spots anyone?)  You’d think a seller gouging his/her buyers would make sure all their products were top notch.  I mean even this bar is stamped with 999 and labeled 9999.  Awesome quality control.

This does not reflect the reality at all. We have had significant improvements in quality control over the years. For example we invested around 10k€ recently to build a pressurized clean room for the product assembly and all the products are now assembled in an ultra clean environment. It's to minimize the amount of any type of debris in the products, to make sure they are as clean as possible.

Additionally the checks on product quality are stricter than ever before. For many products we set aside, to not sell, a significant portion of the product we actually have. This happens when there are even minor issues with the quality of a particular item.

We made these changes exactly because there had been issues with some earlier products. The 2017 silver coins were clearly the worst, and it was an issue with the mint. What we did was we pulled the product out from sale, stopped working with that particular mint, and we added a patinated finish on them and they are now on sale again with the patinated finish. Note we have changed the mints we use 5 or so times since 2015. Now we have I think finally found very solid partners to deliver high quality regardless of the material.

There have been no major issues with any of our gold plated brass or copper coins, any of the gold products, and the bull silver/bronze coins of 2016. The first 2015 brass coins (without gold plating) were pretty bad, some of them. And the 2017 silver was a disaster. But we have quickly reacted to these issues and made sure the same issue doesn't repeat and that the quality improves. And it certainly has, quite significantly. We look at each and every feedback our customers give and have reacted based on that.

We are not doing this stuff as a volume factory, it's a really careful process in all stages. Especially nowadays.

And the issue with the .999 / .9999 gold purity is not really a quality control issue. We use the most reputable lab in Finland for this sort of thing and they simply don't have the .9999 stamp. But as I have explained before we get a certificate that shows the actual purity which is .9999 in this case, and we can provide that to any customers if needed. We have considered using a lab outside Finland but so far we have felt it increases the logistics issues quite a bit when handling major gold shipments. As the lab obviously gets all the gold and then randomly tests some of it.

Overall I'm fairly sure our production process is at the moment more sophisticated than most (if not all) other physical bitcoin producers that have ever existed.

This has some side effects though, as sometimes getting a particular product out (like this 10-year anniversary bar) can take quite a while as we've become more and more strict on the quality standards of everything. This was supposed to be launched approximately 6 months ago and we've had the bars for quite a while, but we worked on getting the packaging just right for multiple months. But I think the end result is worth it.

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September 05, 2019, 11:58:30 PM
 #152

You have a BS excuse for everything....    Roll Eyes  I wouldn’t even trust you to shine my shoes!!

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September 06, 2019, 01:01:46 AM
Last edit: September 06, 2019, 01:12:28 AM by Anduck
 #153

And the issue with the .999 / .9999 gold purity is not really a quality control issue. We use the most reputable lab in Finland for this sort of thing and they simply don't have the .9999 stamp.

It is apparently illegal to stamp higher than .999 purity for gold in Finland. (Source: https://tukes.fi/en/products-and-services/articles-of-precious-metals-jewellery-and-watches/fineness-solders-filling-and-coatings)

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September 06, 2019, 01:34:48 AM
 #154

And the issue with the .999 / .9999 gold purity is not really a quality control issue. We use the most reputable lab in Finland for this sort of thing and they simply don't have the .9999 stamp.



It is apparently illegal to stamp higher than .999 purity for gold in Finland. (Source: https://tukes.fi/en/products-and-services/articles-of-precious-metals-jewellery-and-watches/fineness-solders-filling-and-coatings)
Even worse IMO.  Making that bar on purpose with the mismatched marks, seriously?  Roll Eyes 


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September 06, 2019, 01:38:10 AM
 #155

And the issue with the .999 / .9999 gold purity is not really a quality control issue. We use the most reputable lab in Finland for this sort of thing and they simply don't have the .9999 stamp.



It is apparently illegal to stamp higher than .999 purity for gold in Finland. (Source: https://tukes.fi/en/products-and-services/articles-of-precious-metals-jewellery-and-watches/fineness-solders-filling-and-coatings)
Even worse IMO.  Making that bar on purpose with the mismatched marks, seriously?  Roll Eyes  



Quote
If you sell articles of precious metals in Finland, the articles must carry a fineness mark accepted in Finland.  The articles must not carry other fineness marks. The precious metal content of an article must be at least the fineness indicated in the mark; lower finenesses are not allowed.

Their bars only carry these legal .999 purity marks, right? If they had .9999 in the bar, it would be illegally marked. Stating the purity of .9999 in some document is another thing. (And of course you're allowed to stamp .999 on a higher purity bar, everything is alright as long as purity doesn't go below .999 on a .999 stamped item)

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September 06, 2019, 02:10:43 AM
Last edit: September 06, 2019, 02:35:16 AM by BG4
Merited by anonymousminer (1)
 #156

And the issue with the .999 / .9999 gold purity is not really a quality control issue. We use the most reputable lab in Finland for this sort of thing and they simply don't have the .9999 stamp.



It is apparently illegal to stamp higher than .999 purity for gold in Finland. (Source: https://tukes.fi/en/products-and-services/articles-of-precious-metals-jewellery-and-watches/fineness-solders-filling-and-coatings)
Even worse IMO.  Making that bar on purpose with the mismatched marks, seriously?  Roll Eyes  



Quote
If you sell articles of precious metals in Finland, the articles must carry a fineness mark accepted in Finland.  The articles must not carry other fineness marks. The precious metal content of an article must be at least the fineness indicated in the mark; lower finenesses are not allowed.

Their bars only carry these legal .999 purity marks, right? If they had .9999 in the bar, it would be illegally marked. Stating the purity of .9999 in some document is another thing. (And of course you're allowed to stamp .999 on a higher purity bar, everything is alright as long as purity doesn't go below .999 on a .999 stamped item)


4 9s .... 3 9s.......  it's all confusing..    but how much do the bars weigh...     that should have been on the bar..  it's weight..   no??

Gold bars with mismatched fineness and no weight on them seem scamish to me...
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September 06, 2019, 07:11:27 AM
 #157


Stop making excuses and man up to your f*ckup.
The lesson is: Don't be greedy.
I like the piece and wanted to purchase it.
But I couldn't look at it without it leaving a bad taste in my mouth because the seller is trying to screw me over.
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September 06, 2019, 07:25:22 AM
 #158

Don't get stressed.
One solid seller and many solid buyers. Mixed with gold.
This should be happy talk.

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September 06, 2019, 07:40:19 AM
 #159

Don't get stressed.
One solid seller and many solid buyers. Mixed with gold.
This should be happy talk.

There is no stress, just clarification.
Since you joined the discussion can I ask you one question?
- Do you think it's good practice auction rules are changed in the middle of the auction?
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September 06, 2019, 07:45:44 AM
 #160

- Do you think it's good practice auction rules are changed in the middle of the auction?

Doesn't see it as a change. But standard you can't underbid yourself. Don't know why it was promoted as a change.

Maybe only sell one gold item at a time. Looks like it get to complicated to handle for the team.

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