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Author Topic: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars  (Read 1997 times)
omicron1
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September 06, 2019, 07:53:52 AM
 #161

- Do you think it's good practice auction rules are changed in the middle of the auction?

Doesn't see it as a change. But standard you can't underbid yourself. Don't know why it was promoted as a change.

Maybe only sell one gold item at a time. Looks like it get to complicated to handle for the team.

CHANGE OF RULES! BIDS CAN NO LONGER BE REPLACED BY LOWER BIDS. IF YOU BID LOWER THAN YOUR PREVIOUS BID, THE NEW BID IS INVALID.

THIS RULE IS VALID AFTER THIS POST.


Get this over with.

Did the rules change? Yes or No?

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September 06, 2019, 10:25:24 AM
 #162

Did the rules change? Yes or No?

In my eyes no. I will say default rule you don't underbid yourself.

But yes it was weird Cheesy

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September 06, 2019, 11:26:37 AM
Last edit: September 06, 2019, 01:02:31 PM by N0sferatu
 #163

Really weird to accept lower bids.

Just imagine this in a traditional offline auction:

Auctioneer: "Look at this beautiful 1968 Ford Mustang. Merely used so in perfect condition. Bidding starts at 10.000$!"

Bidder A: "10.000!"
Bidder B: "15.000!"
Bidder A: "16.000!"
Bidder B: "150.000!!!"
Bidder A: "..." (leaves the building)

Auctioneer: "Going once, going twice.."

Bidder B: "17.000!"

Auctioneer: "Sold for 17.000$ to bidder B!"

 Grin

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September 06, 2019, 12:35:43 PM
Merited by anonymousminer (1)
 #164

Did the rules change? Yes or No?

In my eyes no. I will say default rule you don't underbid yourself.

But yes it was weird Cheesy


I have a very low tolerance when it comes to ignorance and denial.
See you at the next auction Denarium will f*ckup! Smiley

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September 06, 2019, 03:01:45 PM
Merited by Lesbian Cow (1), BG4 (1)
 #165

So look, I buy Denarium's stuff.  There products are far from perfect (and rarely grade above an MS67) but I appreciate that there is a current option to purchase trusted physical tokens since Cas and Lealana are out of the game.  (By trusted I mean that everything they do seems to be in the light of day and you can always cross reference coins on their website)

That said, producing a 1oz .999 gold bar should have both weight and purity stamped on it.  Not having the weight is a huge miss in my opinion.

@technomage....you reference several times just getting "shit" from everyone.  I've seen a number of auctions that seemed to go OK.  So perhaps you are being a bit sensitive here?  Maybe best just to own up to some mistakes and say that you guys will work to improve things in the future.  If people pile on after that, then best to ignore and focus on making those improvements.

Also, with respect to pricing....I do think it is shameful to charge the crypto community such high premiums for items.  Yes, I understand that items are limited and time consuming to produce, but that's just how it goes.  I manufacture products (not crypto related) and I can tell you that time investment and limited quantities rarely have anything to do with price or sell through.  The market and consumers dictate the value of things based on utility, adoption, awareness, etc.   A modern 1 oz gold bar carrying a $1000 premium is truly beyond the pale.  So I would strongly urge you guys to reconsider that one.  Especially in light on not having the weight stamped into the bar itself.


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September 06, 2019, 03:22:24 PM
 #166

Echoing Jupityr above, the professional move is to admit some mistakes, take some responsibility for being at the center of this auction's mess, and move on.  To do anything different signals youth or unprofessional mindsets.  You don't want this.

Additionally, I would recommend building your business model to make some % return on each product and move on.  Let the 2ndary / resale market worry about capturing some profit because of how rare things are.  Did the crypto stamps sell for ~$6.90 retail or did they sell for $2,000+ "because they're rare and limited"?  Or did Mike/Smoothie sell his Cas coins at some massive premium because "they are collector items"?  You get my point - you can't play 2 markets at once.  Focus on one or the other.  

My 2 satoshis.
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September 07, 2019, 10:08:56 AM
Last edit: September 07, 2019, 10:21:58 AM by Technomage
 #167

JUPITYR & jackbauercsgo,

I really appreciate the feedback. This is the sort of discussion I'd rather be having.

First of all, I'm 100% taking the blame for the auction underbid/rules issues which caused this auction to go to shit. Even though underbids don't make sense in auctions generally speaking, the rules technically allowed that (at least in our interpretation of the rules), so we made a choice which seemed at the time to be the least worst choice of bad options. Afterwards it has become quite clear it wasn't. So I truly apologize for that and this sort of thing will not happen again.

I was really "triggered" about the shilling accusations which from a certain perspective are understandable, but they are completely baseless. There are valid reasons why our auctions have newbies bidding and they always will, as long as we hold auctions here. And there are some crypto collectors who mostly just collect our stuff, so they are bidding mainly in just our auctions.

As for the pricing of our products, that is a very interesting discussion. Are you guys aware why physical crypto manufacturers seem to disappear a few years after starting out? The real reason, when you look deeper through any possible excuses some of them might have, is that it is not profitable. The crypto collector market is extremely niche and for example Denarium has only been profitable in certain periods of peak bull market. Most of the time it has not been profitable and it is not overall profitable (nowhere near). Denarium still exists because it is subsidized by Prasos from its other crypto business lines that are significantly more profitable. And generally Denarium is 2 to 6% of our company's total revenue. Although I must say the increase in gold value recently has improved Denarium's overall profitability quite significantly, as we've had quite a bit of it in stock. This is a blessing since otherwise it's sort of on thin ice all the time.

We haven't figured out how to fix the profitability with pricing. Our pricing has been fairly dynamic and when we sell them too cheap, we end up in a situation where we have nothing to sell for 4-6 months. This happened in peak times of 2017, and for this we probably lost out on a lot of revenue. After that we've been extremely careful of not underpricing anything, as if we sell our stock, it will take many months before we have something new to sell. Other things affect this also when it is a gold product, as our company sees the gold as an investment as well. Thus we're especially not trying to get the gold products sold asap. They are selling though, just might take some time. For example, the limited edition 1 BTC parity gold coin is almost sold out (as is the 2017 1/2oz gold coin, which we've auctioned here recently).

The issue here also is that even at cost price the gold products are nowhere near spot gold. Now we actually have a mint from where we can get fairly close to spot gold products, but there are so many other costs involved in these products, as we put a lot of work on them.

Currently as it stands our other gold products are pretty much priced in this "cost + reasonable margin" manner. They have room for 10% discounts which we occasionally give to clients and this is the discount our employees & shareholders get. Still leaves profit. But there is no room to really go down more than that (with current gold pricing). Our pricing relative to gold is not dynamic, we do manual changes to pricing if there are major changes in gold value.

The only gold product that clearly has some extra margin is this one, the 10-year bar, as it is the current flagship product and we anticipate the interest to be high (based on how we like the product, how people have reacted to it and how people bid in the auction). And we have already sold many bars after the auction, so it is going decently well. But as I've mentioned before we will adjust pricing at some point for this one to be more in line with the others, in case the sales decline significantly. If they sell slow & steady, we'll keep it as is.

Denarium as a standalone business would've stopped some time ago, that I'm very sure of. The profitability of Prasos' other crypto businesses has kept it going, and improving. At least for now. For collectors I guess it's a good thing when a producer goes under, as only then do the products really start becoming true collectibles.

New Denarium Decennium Gold Bar now on sale! Check it out from here!
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September 07, 2019, 12:00:46 PM
Last edit: September 07, 2019, 12:27:55 PM by BG4
 #168

JUPITYR & jackbauercsgo,

I really appreciate the feedback. This is the sort of discussion I'd rather be having.

First of all, I'm 100% taking the blame for the auction underbid/rules issues which caused this auction to go to shit. Even though underbids don't make sense in auctions generally speaking, the rules technically allowed that (at least in our interpretation of the rules), so we made a choice which seemed at the time to be the least worst choice of bad options. Afterwards it has become quite clear it wasn't. So I truly apologize for that and this sort of thing will not happen again.

I was really "triggered" about the shilling accusations which from a certain perspective are understandable, but they are completely baseless. There are valid reasons why our auctions have newbies bidding and they always will, as long as we hold auctions here. And there are some crypto collectors who mostly just collect our stuff, so they are bidding mainly in just our auctions.

As for the pricing of our products, that is a very interesting discussion. Are you guys aware why physical crypto manufacturers seem to disappear a few years after starting out? The real reason, when you look deeper through any possible excuses some of them might have, is that it is not profitable. The crypto collector market is extremely niche and for example Denarium has only been profitable in certain periods of peak bull market. Most of the time it has not been profitable and it is not overall profitable (nowhere near). Denarium still exists because it is subsidized by Prasos from its other crypto business lines that are significantly more profitable. And generally Denarium is 2 to 6% of our company's total revenue. Although I must say the increase in gold value recently has improved Denarium's overall profitability quite significantly, as we've had quite a bit of it in stock. This is a blessing since otherwise it's sort of on thin ice all the time.

We haven't figured out how to fix the profitability with pricing. Our pricing has been fairly dynamic and when we sell them too cheap, we end up in a situation where we have nothing to sell for 4-6 months. This happened in peak times of 2017, and for this we probably lost out on a lot of revenue. After that we've been extremely careful of not underpricing anything, as if we sell our stock, it will take many months before we have something new to sell. Other things affect this also when it is a gold product, as our company sees the gold as an investment as well. Thus we're especially not trying to get the gold products sold asap. They are selling though, just might take some time. For example, the limited edition 1 BTC parity gold coin is almost sold out (as is the 2017 1/2oz gold coin, which we've auctioned here recently).

The issue here also is that even at cost price the gold products are nowhere near spot gold. Now we actually have a mint from where we can get fairly close to spot gold products, but there are so many other costs involved in these products, as we put a lot of work on them.

Currently as it stands our other gold products are pretty much priced in this "cost + reasonable margin" manner. They have room for 10% discounts which we occasionally give to clients and this is the discount our employees & shareholders get. Still leaves profit. But there is no room to really go down more than that (with current gold pricing). Our pricing relative to gold is not dynamic, we do manual changes to pricing if there are major changes in gold value.

The only gold product that clearly has some extra margin is this one, the 10-year bar, as it is the current flagship product and we anticipate the interest to be high (based on how we like the product, how people have reacted to it and how people bid in the auction). And we have already sold many bars after the auction, so it is going decently well. But as I've mentioned before we will adjust pricing at some point for this one to be more in line with the others, in case the sales decline significantly. If they sell slow & steady, we'll keep it as is.

Denarium as a standalone business would've stopped some time ago, that I'm very sure of. The profitability of Prasos' other crypto businesses has kept it going, and improving. At least for now. For collectors I guess it's a good thing when a producer goes under, as only then do the products really start becoming true collectibles.



All that ........ And No comment on the mismatched fineness and no bar weight?   I think WE should comment on that topic also


Who is WE......  

WE = Denarium. I'm co-founder & Chairman of Prasos which is the company that operates Denarium.

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September 07, 2019, 12:39:19 PM
 #169

All that ........ And No comment on the mismatched mint marks and no bar weight?

The questions about the purity markings have been explained in this thread multiple times, and also elaborated on by others. We put the .9999 there as it actually is .9999, and can be proven by a lab certificate. The lab itself only stamps and is allowed to stamp them to up to .999 by law, so that's why the stamp is different.

Just to clarify there are no "mint marks" in this product. The mint puts whatever graphic there that we specify, they don't add anything on their own. What is added afterwards are the lab stamps on the side (by the lab).

As for the 1oz marking, this simply wasn't on the design. The 1oz bar is very small in size and likely our graphics designer simply saved space, not understanding that this isn't the right thing to save space on. Why it went through to production? Good question. We can add this to the list of fuckups I guess! There is internal investigation about this ongoing so I really have no more to say about it at this stage.

Can someone explain to me why the 1oz marking is critical? Other than "it's supposed to be there like always"? I mean practically speaking. You can weigh it to verify it if you like. To me the purity marking is much more relevant. It was a slip up for sure but I have a hard time seeing how it's the end of the world.

It's not like we are the world standard in gold bars and anyone would just trust at face value that our bar is x weight if it has the marking on the bar. Right?

Again, that weight marking, missing or not, has nothing to do with the mint. It's something we either put on the graphic submitted to the mint or not. In this case it was not put in there, for one reason or another. I can get back to that later as we have clarity on this internally.

New Denarium Decennium Gold Bar now on sale! Check it out from here!
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September 07, 2019, 12:49:31 PM
Last edit: September 07, 2019, 01:00:12 PM by BG4
 #170

All that ........ And No comment on the mismatched mint marks and no bar weight?

The questions about the purity markings have been explained in this thread multiple times, and also elaborated on by others. We put the .9999 there as it actually is .9999, and can be proven by a lab certificate. The lab itself only stamps and is allowed to stamp them to up to .999 by law, so that's why the stamp is different.

Just to clarify there are no "mint marks" in this product. The mint puts whatever graphic there that we specify, they don't add anything on their own. What is added afterwards are the lab stamps on the side (by the lab).

As for the 1oz marking, this simply wasn't on the design. The 1oz bar is very small in size and likely our graphics designer simply saved space, not understanding that this isn't the right thing to save space on. Why it went through to production? Good question. We can add this to the list of fuckups I guess! There is internal investigation about this ongoing so I really have no more to say about it at this stage.

Can someone explain to me why the 1oz marking is critical? Other than "it's supposed to be there like always"? I mean practically speaking. You can weigh it to verify it if you like. To me the purity marking is much more relevant. It was a slip up for sure but I have a hard time seeing how it's the end of the world.

It's not like we are the world standard in gold bars and anyone would just trust at face value that our bar is x weight if it has the marking on the bar. Right?

Again, that weight marking, missing or not, has nothing to do with the mint. It's something we either put on the graphic submitted to the mint or not. In this case it was not put in there, for one reason or another. I can get back to that later as we have clarity on this internally.

All other gold and Silver  Denarium coins have weight marked on them.... Why did you do it there and not this one......Huh  

and Real Gold bars with mismatched fineness marks and no weight ..   give me the perception that the maker doesn't know what they were doing...  maybe you should stick to base metal coins....

Was it a slip up and you just decided to sell it anyway,  or is this new to you after production and you don't know that you are doing???   because your auction skills show... you don't know what you are doing....
 

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September 07, 2019, 12:58:24 PM
 #171

@technomage

If Denarium is not a profitable business, then you should honestly consider closing it down.  There is no reason to keep a company going that isn't profitable, or expected to be profitable at some point in the future, unless that business serves some greater humanitarian or societal need AND can at least be self-sustaining.  Minting physical cryptos is certainly not a humanitarian need and by your account it does not appear to be self-sustaining business model.  So why keep something going that is basically a losing proposition?  

Crypto fans will get along just fine with or without a Denarium.  Nice to have it as an option, but certainly not the end of the world for anyone if not.  To answer your question though, I have looked into it and decided not to mint physical crypto coins precisely because it is not profitable to do so.

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September 07, 2019, 12:58:32 PM
 #172

All other gold and Silver  Denarium coins have weight marked on them.... Why did you do it there and not this one......Huh

I explained already the most likely reason. We had discussion about the small size of the bar and its limitations during the production process and compromises were made with the contents of the graphics. The 1oz marking was skipped by the designer to save space, and it went unnoticed as no one thought it was that critical. Also this product experienced large delays for multiple reasons which distracted the team quite a bit. We meant to launch it pretty much in January-February originally.

This was clearly a slip up, any potential future precious metal products will again have the weight mark of course. Then again perhaps some one will think this is special in some way. Collectors sometimes value errors. But I guess we'll see about that Smiley

Was it a slip up and you just decided to sell it anyway,  or is this new to you after production and you don't know that you are doing???

We had no idea about this until it was mentioned in this thread. As I tried to explain earlier I have difficulty seeing the critical importance of that, as did probably everyone else in the team. That's why it went unnoticed. I'm still lacking any answers as to why it's that important.

New Denarium Decennium Gold Bar now on sale! Check it out from here!
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September 07, 2019, 01:07:44 PM
 #173

@technomage

If Denarium is not a profitable business, then you should honestly consider closing it down.  There is no reason to keep a company going that isn't profitable, or expected to be profitable at some point in the future, unless that business serves some greater humanitarian or societal need AND can at least be self-sustaining.  Minting physical cryptos is certainly not a humanitarian need and by your account it does not appear to be self-sustaining business model.  So why keep something going that is basically a losing proposition?  

Crypto fans will get along just fine with or without a Denarium.  Nice to have it as an option, but certainly not the end of the world for anyone if not.  To answer your question though, I have looked into it and decided not to mint physical crypto coins precisely because it is not profitable to do so.

We've been considering that for a while now, and the operation has in some ways been changed recently to cut costs. We might only publish one product for the year 2020 it looks like, if any. And this one is the last new product for this year. Except we'll probably continue auctioning all kinds of production prototypes of the past, they seem to be quite interesting to collectors.

What we've noticed is that even though we don't put out a lot of products, we still put out too much for the size of the collector market. The amount of products from all these little producers and all the old products, has completely oversaturated the market. Yes, some amount always gets sold, but it's problematic. We've of course been secretly hoping that even more producers go under, to balance it out. But new ones always pop up for a while until they figure out it's not solid business wise.

New Denarium Decennium Gold Bar now on sale! Check it out from here!
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September 07, 2019, 01:09:27 PM
 #174

All other gold and Silver  Denarium coins have weight marked on them.... Why did you do it there and not this one......Huh

I explained already the most likely reason. We had discussion about the small size of the bar and its limitations during the production process and compromises were made with the contents of the graphics. The 1oz marking was skipped by the designer to save space, and it went unnoticed as no one thought it was that critical. Also this product experienced large delays for multiple reasons which distracted the team quite a bit. We meant to launch it pretty much in January-February originally.

This was clearly a slip up, any potential future precious metal products will again have the weight mark of course. Then again perhaps some one will think this is special in some way. Collectors sometimes value errors. But I guess we'll see about that Smiley

Was it a slip up and you just decided to sell it anyway,  or is this new to you after production and you don't know that you are doing???

We had no idea about this until it was mentioned in this thread. As I tried to explain earlier I have difficulty seeing the critical importance of that, as did probably everyone else in the team. That's why it went unnoticed. I'm still lacking any answers as to why it's that important.


And this is why you should stick to Base Metal coins.....


maybe you shouldn't have spent all that money on that "CLEAN ROOM..."
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September 07, 2019, 01:17:58 PM
Merited by BG4 (20), Technomage (5), LoyceV (1)
 #175

All that ........ And No comment on the mismatched mint marks and no bar weight?

Can someone explain to me why the 1oz marking is critical? Other than "it's supposed to be there like always"? I mean practically speaking. You can weigh it to verify it if you like. To me the purity marking is much more relevant. It was a slip up for sure but I have a hard time seeing how it's the end of the world.

It's not like we are the world standard in gold bars and anyone would just trust at face value that our bar is x weight if it has the marking on the bar. Right?


There are ISO standards for just about every product, including precious metals, gems, jewellery, etc.

At a minimum your bars would likely not be eligible for any gold-backed IRA accounts as they bar itself does not contain both weight and purity stamps.

There could also be issues with respect to importation into various countries where a customs official or broker cannot properly determine a tariff value without both pieces of information being evident.  Yes, it has other documentation with it now, but assume 10 years from now when the paperwork is lost or no longer with the bar.  In theory these little beauties will outlast us all, so it should not have to rely on a degradable piece of paper always accompanying it to speak to its weight in gold.

Some countries may also have laws against importing bullion products without the proper stamping.  You'd probably just need to research to make sure you are in compliance with the laws of the countries you are shipping to.

Those are just some quick thoughts and reasons as to why it's an issue, besides simply not adhering to collector's expectations.  Also, if there was no room in the obverse or reverse for the weight, you could consider using the edges of the bar.
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September 07, 2019, 02:30:49 PM
Merited by BG4 (20)
 #176

There are ISO standards for just about every product, including precious metals, gems, jewellery, etc.

At a minimum your bars would likely not be eligible for any gold-backed IRA accounts as they bar itself does not contain both weight and purity stamps.

There could also be issues with respect to importation into various countries where a customs official or broker cannot properly determine a tariff value without both pieces of information being evident.  Yes, it has other documentation with it now, but assume 10 years from now when the paperwork is lost or no longer with the bar.  In theory these little beauties will outlast us all, so it should not have to rely on a degradable piece of paper always accompanying it to speak to its weight in gold.

Some countries may also have laws against importing bullion products without the proper stamping.  You'd probably just need to research to make sure you are in compliance with the laws of the countries you are shipping to.

Those are just some quick thoughts and reasons as to why it's an issue, besides simply not adhering to collector's expectations.  Also, if there was no room in the obverse or reverse for the weight, you could consider using the edges of the bar.

Thanks for the response, this is useful. There are various shipping restrictions with gold even though the previous ones have the correct markings, but we have solved them with proper delivery partners and simply shut out some countries where the issue is insurmountable due to local regulations. We certainly hope this doesn't lead to any further shipping / customs issues as it is already a bit of a pain.

We recently invested in a metal engraving machine which we are going to use to offer customizable physical bitcoins, in theory we could use that to engrave the marking to these bars afterwards. It doesn't affect the gold content as the process doesn't remove any metal. Not sure if this is a legit way of fixing this issue or if it's simply unfixable, we will investigate this thoroughly. Definitely a bummer, as we worked really hard on this, but managed to miss a small but important detail.

Feel free to twist the knife guys but rest assured the me and the rest of the team are embarrassed to the max about this silly mistake.

New Denarium Decennium Gold Bar now on sale! Check it out from here!
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September 07, 2019, 02:36:03 PM
Merited by Technomage (5), krogothmanhattan (1)
 #177

Just a few pieces of advice from reading your orig. reply to dolph and jack.  A company going under doesn't necessarily make their products more valuable, if even at all...a limited mintage, well designed, and reasonably priced product is what will help make a collectible valuable down the road.  Collectors don't hope for a maker to go under, any one of us regulars here would kill for Smoothie and or Casascius to come back with a few more pieces!

The problem here with Denarium, as I see it, is trying to make the collectibles a sizable portion of your overall business, in which to make money to keep your shareholders profitable/happy.  In doing so, you're mass producing items at a cost well above what a new release should be at, and in return, driving potential buyers away for good.

I would also recommend reaching out to some of the biggest collectors here and ask them what the community is "dying to see".  There's no doubt that this sub here on btalk is by far the number one place in the world to buy/sell physical crypto items to the most passionate collectors on earth.  Heed the advice/suggestions of these collectors and you very well could see your items not collecting dust on shelves for prolonged periods of time. 

Taking this advice might not be as profitable in the short term, but sure could be in the long run, IMHO.  Hope you find this as constructive criticism and not bashing Denarium. 
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September 07, 2019, 02:48:40 PM
 #178

...Hope you find this as constructive criticism and not bashing Denarium.

Large majority of the money Denarium has made is from the limited edition items made for collectors (gold, silver, bronze and so on). The brass/copper coins would have to be selling at different magnitudes of volume to make real money, and even if we managed to get that demand, then we'd run into major production issues with our current tools/methods. So it's challenging in many ways. Of course the cheaper coins have been good for spreading the word, so they are more for the promotion. They have been drastically improved as well, value for money is quite solid with the most recent gold plated copper 2019 coins.

We could try limited editions even smaller, but there we run into another challenge which is that the mint cost becomes significantly higher per item. And selling any type of limited edition series with a small margin does not work financially speaking. The constant employee costs are too high compared to the volume, margin and the rate of new product series coming out. And this stuff is difficult to make any cheaper, as the process has to be highly secure, supervised, and carefully done overall. Also we've tried to separate ourselves by really focusing on nice packaging, which is a lot of work.

In anycase I definitely appreciate this type of feedback and find it highly constructive. We don't want to drive away collectors as they have been the most important customers to us. We've made mistakes but we always work on them, and we try to make sure that we don't repeat the same mistake again. Just getting slightly desperate about this as the crypto collector market is a super niche already, and if we've managed to alienate a major part of it, then that's pretty much that.


New Denarium Decennium Gold Bar now on sale! Check it out from here!
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September 07, 2019, 03:13:35 PM
 #179

CHANGE OF RULES! BIDS CAN NO LONGER BE REPLACED BY LOWER BIDS. IF YOU BID LOWER THAN YOUR PREVIOUS BID, THE NEW BID IS INVALID.

THIS RULE IS VALID AFTER THIS POST.


Get this over with.

Changing rules mid-auction?   you gotta be kidding me.......   Huh

I'm happy I was busy and forgot about this auction, that was a seriously F***ed up rule  Roll Eyes

Though pity I missed out, I was seriously intrested in bidding for one of those beauty bars Cheesy

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September 07, 2019, 03:27:34 PM
Last edit: September 07, 2019, 06:10:37 PM by BG4
 #180

...Hope you find this as constructive criticism and not bashing Denarium.

Large majority of the money Denarium has made is from the limited edition items made for collectors (gold, silver, bronze and so on). The brass/copper coins would have to be selling at different magnitudes of volume to make real money, and even if we managed to get that demand, then we'd run into major production issues with our current tools/methods. So it's challenging in many ways. Of course the cheaper coins have been good for spreading the word, so they are more for the promotion. They have been drastically improved as well, value for money is quite solid with the most recent gold plated copper 2019 coins.

We could try limited editions even smaller, but there we run into another challenge which is that the mint cost becomes significantly higher per item. And selling any type of limited edition series with a small margin does not work financially speaking. The constant employee costs are too high compared to the volume, margin and the rate of new product series coming out. And this stuff is difficult to make any cheaper, as the process has to be highly secure, supervised, and carefully done overall. Also we've tried to separate ourselves by really focusing on nice packaging, which is a lot of work.

In anycase I definitely appreciate this type of feedback and find it highly constructive. We don't want to drive away collectors as they have been the most important customers to us. We've made mistakes but we always work on them, and we try to make sure that we don't repeat the same mistake again. Just getting slightly desperate about this as the crypto collector market is a super niche already, and if we've managed to alienate a major part of it, then that's pretty much that.



Is this the reason for Auction rule Number 1  ....      


  you are on a roll with the honesty with the last few posts .........


Auction rules

When you post a bid, the bids in your previous posts are considered to be automatically canceled. You can put multiple bids in one post, however.
- If two people bid at the same price, the person who bid first will be first in line to win a bar.
- Bids are considered invalid and will be ignored if they do not specify the price of the bid and the number of bars (if it is more than one bar) the bidder is bidding for, or if they could not possibly win any slots.


 Is this the shit (WE) sit around in the boardroom thinking about  Huh??

 Do your 1500 investors know you promote Denarium products like this....   Do the Prasos board members know you promote Denarium products like this...Huh

Who is WE......  

WE =  Denarium. I'm co-founder & Chairman of Prasos which is the company that operates Denarium.






Technically the rules don't deny many, many things.   You don't need a stipulation for everything.

What's weird about this is Denarium stood to make an extra 0.4 BTC by simply letting Kebab's higher bid stand.  But they went on a limb and allowed them to lower it, against all logic and convention. Why?  

Because was a clever ruse to drum up interest and get a whale to outbid someone for #1. Nobody took the bait and FOMO bid at 0.81.  

So, they had a tough choice.  Allow the shill to lower the bid and take a reputational hit, so that someone might try to outbid the lower 0.4 instead (because 0.8 was clearly off the mark).  Neither strategies worked, and it's backfiring completely.  

Making matters worse, Lebnor wisely caught wind of this strategy, and also lowered his bid.  It wasn't until this happened that Denarium took an even bigger risk. He stepped in to change the rules for Lebnor using this strategy! Even though Lebnor was lowering it by much less than Kebab did.  Why?  Because the scam was being used against them in away they didn't anticipate (by an actual bidder).

This is total bullshit. I'm really getting tired of this. kebab77 is a prominent bitcoin enthusiast who invested in our company some years ago and is a fan of our products. But he has no position in the company. He trusts me and our company probably more than most other crypto wallet creators so he buys from us. But he is not getting any discounts for the auctions, as is nobody else. For website orders we have discounts for shareholders & employees, but that does not apply to auctions. Due to privacy issues I'm dead locked with this as I can't reveal anyones identity. Not only is that crappy practice but that would be a GDPR violation which would be very bad for our company. So there is nothing I can really do to disprove this conspiracy bullshit other than say that it is absolute BS. You, or anyone claiming this, has the burden of proof, in my opinion. No proof is here, or has never been presented before.

As for rsincognito, we had no relationship to him in the past, he caught wind of this from here or our other marketing and came to bid, just like anyone else. And he paid for the bars just like everyone did, as they have before. Even though we have some newbies bidding everyone has always paid. But it is a sure way to stir up this conspiracy shit.

With the rule change in this auction we thought it would've been a worse move to invalidate rsincognito's bid as it technically follows the rules (to my surprise), than to just let the auction continue. We allowed it to continue. Then it soon became clear everyone else (kebab & lebnor) started doing the same thing, so the auction became ridiculous. That's when we made the move to change the rules, in order to be able to close the auction in a decent timeframe. If we haven't done that, playing around with over and underbids would've continued for maybe hours more. It was already 2 hours past deadline. To us that seemed the worse option. Perhaps the right move would've been to invalidate the lower bid of rsincognito right away, or cancel the whole auction, it's always nice to think about things after the fact. But what was done was done and that's that. We'll learn from this of course.

But overall this continued issue with newbies bidding - there is nothing we can do about that. Our company has 90000 customers in our various crypto services, 1500 shareholders and we promote Denarium stuff to them actively. This always leads to some new people coming to the auctions that are new to Bitcointalk. We can't reveal anyones identity here so it's basically up to you to either trust us or not. I just want to make it clear that there is no proof we have had shills in any of the auctions and in fact I can guarantee that there has been 0 shills in any of our auctions. At least not sponsored by us - it's of course possible some bidders have their own shills. To us what matters is that the products get paid and so far we have a 100% paid rate for our auctions.

What is your solution to this? Deny newbies access to these auctions? And by doing that we disable access to these auctions for the 100k or so people in our network. To be honest I'd rather move the auctions off from here entirely. We've worked now for 4.5 years on Denarium trying to improve our products and make them great collectibles for all of you and what we get increasingly from here is shit. So yes, thank you very much indeed.





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