Is it possible for us to get the price back up

[Revalin]

I do not think that a high exchange rate that has to be propped up would contribute to stability.

You kind of implied it when you said "A higher price would mean generally lower volatility" in a thread about getting the price back up.  Sorry for the rant if that's not what you meant. 

Nor do I think that stability can be accomplished by an artificially suppressed price.

Nor am I advocating an artificially suppressed price.  I just want it to fall naturally until commerce raises it again.

There is no case that can be made to say that a market which is orders of magnitude smaller is a meaningful participant in the larger economy.

True, but the Bitcoin economy can be one or two orders of magnitude larger than it is now (along with 1-2 orders of market depth, and 1-2 orders of stability) without raising the price.

Again what you're saying isn't wrong.  It's just that you're implying that you want the price higher when really you want a large economy (which happens to cause a high price).

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[slush]

I just want it to fall naturally until commerce raises it again.

...but with such tiny market cap commerce probably will never come. Currently all bitcoins are less than 17 mil USD; and most of them aren't available on market at all. At this moment I cannot imagine that some real business will come to bitcoin world, unfortunately, because every single order can move a market. For example today's "huge drop" was only 150k$, which is *nothing* for real commerce!

I'm talking about some specific business which I'm working on. However, with price declining, I probably need to review my ideas, because this business need much higher market prices to not be price maker itself by its usd->btc->usd conversions.

[deepceleron]

The only problem with a low Bitcoin value is it makes the price more easily volatile, buy $200,000 of Bitcoins now and you can get 1% of all bitcoins in existence (or sell $100,000 worth to drop the value of bitcoins 20% in two minutes.) that amount of money wouldn't be so influential if the market cap of all BTC was $170 million instead of $17 million.

[slush]

Yes, with such small Bitcoin value it's simply impossible to transfer some amounts. Currently Bitcoin is big enough to buy alpaca socks or play poker, but NOT big enough to be interesting enough for business as transaction network. Which is making me sad because I spent a lot time on preparing my business.

Edit: I'm writing this for all those guys which are happy for falling price, because "it will be chaper to buy coins". But there are some serious troubles with *such* low price.

[Revalin]

most of them aren't available on market at all.

That, not the price, is the problem IMO.  Too many people desperately clinging to their brick in the pyramid and hoping to get rich; not enough people creating commerce.  The price declining toward fundamentals is slowly correcting that problem.  We don't need "most" (or even double digit percentages) of the coins to be on the market, but the current miniscule fraction is unreasonably low.

I'll just leave it at that since my thoughts on Bitcoin's broken economics are (and belong) in other threads.

Yes, with such small Bitcoin value it's simply impossible to transfer some amounts. .... NOT big enough to be interesting enough for business as transaction network.

My business can't happen in BTC until there's liquidity for transactions of tens of thousands of USD, or better, enough value stability that I can just hold the BTC.

... But again, I need market depth.  High prices alone don't provide depth unless they're backed by commerce.

[Revalin]

that amount of money wouldn't be so influential if the market cap of all BTC was $170 million instead of $17 million.

Sure it would.  In a thin market, someone with 0.1% of all BTC could crash it from $30 to $3 just as easily as from $3 to $0.30.

I want to see 5% market depths.  Then we can talk about needing more price...  But we won't need to, because the price will rise naturally.

... This is kind of inspiring me to create another price model based on market depth.

[d.james]

Many people has the ability to easily bring back the price to $15-$30 range.

You just gotta talk to the right person.

[adamstgBit]

Many people has the ability to easily bring back the price to $15-$30 range.

You just gotta talk to the right person.

ya sure dump 1 million $ into the market.... watch it go up to 15$ and then back down to 3$ in less then 2 hours

[proudhon]

Many people has the ability to easily bring back the price to $15-$30 range.

You just gotta talk to the right person.

ya sure dump 1 million $ into the market.... watch it go up to 15$ and then back down to 3$ in less then 2 hours

Or, if you'd rather not endure the wait time to wire $1 million to MtGox you can go down to the bank, take out $1 million, and then light it on fire.

[adamstgBit]

Many people has the ability to easily bring back the price to $15-$30 range.

You just gotta talk to the right person.

ya sure dump 1 million $ into the market.... watch it go up to 15$ and then back down to 3$ in less then 2 hours

Or, if you'd rather not endure the wait time to wire $1 million to MtGox you can go down to the bank, take out $1 million, and then light it on fire.

that would be illegal.

 

[proudhon]

Many people has the ability to easily bring back the price to $15-$30 range.

You just gotta talk to the right person.

ya sure dump 1 million $ into the market.... watch it go up to 15$ and then back down to 3$ in less then 2 hours

Or, if you'd rather not endure the wait time to wire $1 million to MtGox you can go down to the bank, take out $1 million, and then light it on fire.

that would be illegal.

 

Damn, you're right.  Buy bitcoins instead then.  Same end result.  It just takes longer, that's all.

[BTCurious]

Or, if you'd rather not endure the wait time to wire $1 million to MtGox you can go down to the bank, take out $1 million, and then light it on fire.

that would be illegal.

Huh? Why?

[bittenbob]

Or, if you'd rather not endure the wait time to wire $1 million to MtGox you can go down to the bank, take out $1 million, and then light it on fire.

that would be illegal.

Huh? Why?

Its illegal to destroy legal tender. Burning $1 million would therefore be illegal. Kind of like how you can be charged for drilling a hole in a penny (as stupid as it sounds). You may think its your money but its really the governments

[adamstgBit]

Many people has the ability to easily bring back the price to $15-$30 range.
You just gotta talk to the right person.

ya sure dump 1 million $ into the market.... watch it go up to 15$ and then back down to 3$ in less then 2 hours

Or, if you'd rather not endure the wait time to wire $1 million to MtGox you can go down to the bank, take out $1 million, and then light it on fire.

that would be illegal.

Damn, you're right.  Buy bitcoins instead then.  Same end result.  It just takes longer, that's all.

well you'd portly end up with a 300,000BTC wallet..... but ya that's kinda useless.....

agreed,

bitcoins new slogan should be.

"Don't want to go to jail for burning money? consider buying bitcoins!"

[tvbcof]

ya sure dump 1 million $ into the market.... watch it go up to 15$ and then back down to 3$ in less then 2 hours

Or, if you'd rather not endure the wait time to wire $1 million to MtGox you can go down to the bank, take out $1 million, and then light it on fire.

that would be illegal.

Damn, you're right.  Buy bitcoins instead then.  Same end result.  It just takes longer, that's all.

No it wouldn't.  Someone who was smart enough to be in the game (rather than just sitting on the sidelines spewing nonsense) would become $1M richer.

[adamstgBit]

ya sure dump 1 million $ into the market.... watch it go up to 15$ and then back down to 3$ in less then 2 hours

Or, if you'd rather not endure the wait time to wire $1 million to MtGox you can go down to the bank, take out $1 million, and then light it on fire.

that would be illegal.

Damn, you're right.  Buy bitcoins instead then.  Same end result.  It just takes longer, that's all.

No it wouldn't.  Someone who was smart enough to be in the game (rather than just sitting on the sidelines spewing nonsense) would become $1M richer.

+1, yup that's the bottom line.

your either, stupid and go around spreading bitcoin hate. Or you play the game, have allot of fun, and maybe make some money.

[Technomage]

Really good discussion in this thread. To slush I have to say that I wouldn't worry too much about low price and the chicken and egg problem. You're not the only one starting a Bitcoin business. I'm starting a company in 2 months.

The only way that we'll see a sustainable higher price for Bitcoin with less volatility is by starting companies that increase the commercial use of Bitcoin.

2012 will be the year Bitcoin begins. But only if enthusiasts continue the path of development. Now is not the time to start doubting oneself.

[Jonathan Ryan Owens]

Really good discussion in this thread. To slush I have to say that I wouldn't worry too much about low price and the chicken and egg problem. You're not the only one starting a Bitcoin business. I'm starting a company in 2 months.

The only way that we'll see a sustainable higher price for Bitcoin with less volatility is by starting companies that increase the commercial use of Bitcoin.

2012 will be the year Bitcoin begins. But only if enthusiast continue the path of development. Now is not the time to start doubting oneself.

With only 1/7th of bitcoin actively traded, there's animosity between actual developers / entrepreneurs and hoarders. If only the Satoshi working group had considered the real world implications of a successful launch, and included a holding cost (demurrage) to thwart hoarding, we probably wouldn't be in this mess. I hope beyond hope that the the value falls another 80%, and that days destroyed starts decreasing rapidly, and soon, for at least another 20 - 30% of coins.

Many (including me) want early miners and speculators to liquidate the majority of their holdings. If that doesn't happen rather soon, bitcoin may never recover, and an alt currency chain could easily leave Bitcoin (and its early adopters who killed the golden goose) in the dust.

Bitcoin is not the end game. It is the first experiment in a new type of money. Keep your chin up, developers and entrepreneurs, even as the price continues to go down. Instead of being depressed about $0.80 bitcoin, be glad that many hoarded coins will (hopefully) come into circulation. As is, Bitcoin is a HORRIBLE investment, where far too many inactive bitcoins are capable of creating incredible volatility, and this will scare off any serious players. Perhaps that will (finally) change soon? Maybe not. Either way, cryptocurrency isn't dead by a long shot.

[Revalin]

+1, I agree completely.

I was alluding to this when I said "broken economics", but I didn't want to derail the thread with my usual pitch.  Suffice to say, there are several people working on interesting ways to improve it, most likely in another cryptocurrency since the changes would be too controversial for Bitcoin.

[cbeast]

I am waiting not for changes to how Bitcoin works, but tools to make it accessible to 99.999999% of the world population. We need very easy ways to transport Bitcoin offline (i.e. public/private key systems) and allow someone without a highschool education to redeem them on a smartphone without opening multiple online accounts with financial institutions. I think this will attract more banks to accept the idea of bitcoin when they can feel they can dupe Aunt May to then 'deposit' her Bitcoin in their bank. I know this may sound stupid, but evolution is about adaptability, not superiority.