Bumping changes on some boards

[suchmoon]

I'm very ashamed that I'm answering to each post that is being answered to me.

There is an "Edit" button for that.

And yes we have something like 5000 cryptocurrencies out there that are not solving anything at the moment.
So we should expect one that will begin finally solving something.

When this MessiahCoin shows up I'm sure it will be on page 1. If not - let me know and I will personally bump it.

Edit - oh FFS. "Revolunary" coin... I guess there is a coin for every word in the dictionary.

[johnwhitestar]

I'm very ashamed that I'm answering to each post that is being answered to me.

There is an "Edit" button for that.

And yes we have something like 5000 cryptocurrencies out there that are not solving anything at the moment.
So we should expect one that will begin finally solving something.

When this MessiahCoin shows up I'm sure it will be on page 1. If not - let me know and I will personally bump it.

Edit - oh FFS. "Revolunary" coin... I guess there is a coin for every word in the dictionary.

My goal is not to upset anybody here but to help brainstorming.

I think I've expressed my concerns at my best. If it can help I'm happy if it's just garbage I'm sorry for having polluted this topic and am ready to delete whatever I said here.

[Upgrade00]

then causes the buyer to leave a red trust  or neutral trust saying they tried to selll some bump power?

This is unlikely to happen as the buyer was also involved in the transaction and would also get tagged for unethical behaviour.
It is a new system and we may have to give it a few weeks to fully gauge and access it's flaws (if any) and make modifications where necessary.

[theymos]

Bounties (Altcoins) is added to the targeted boards. For other busy marketplace boards such as Digital goods, I'd like to wait a while and see how this goes, but they are possible later additions. For local boards, local mods can PM me to request that the boards be added to the list if the first page of the board is always full of topics with a last-posted-in of today.

I don't think this is correct.

You're right. I think that the auto-stabilization property I described actually is desirable, though, so I changed the system to provide it. Now your super-bump power is: b*(1-0.15*^s/_b), where b is your base power and s is the total bump score you've contributed via superbumps over the last 30 days. This gives the same result as the previous algorithm except when any 30-day period overlaps with another.

By allowing very old threads to be bumped like this, you may be inadvertently be encouraging non-relevant threads to be nerco bumped.

I don't see this as being inherently a problem. Maybe the old thread is still relevant and deserves to be bumped. This is why mods are instructed to not lock old threads or otherwise try to stop necro-bumping unless specific cases are somehow disruptive.

If this does seem to become a major annoyance, things could be changed.

I have found a bug:

I created a sockpuppet account with zero merit and activity, testing321, created a thread in service discussion, and moved it to service announcements. I am not sure if it got superbumped or not, but I presume not, and after moving the topic, it is the 5th highest thread. I am not sure how it is being sorted, but I don't think it is by bump score.

That's because at that time only 4 topics had any bump score.

Are there any intentions to bring this to other subs too ?

I am explicitly thinking about subs which are for information exchange (Development & Technical Discussion / Technical Support / Beginners & Help).
IMO this would make it way harder to keep track of all (new posts) in a topic where questions might have been asked.

Can we be assured that there are no intentions (yet) to bring that bump button to these boards which highly focus on the exchange of knowledge ?

Definitely not boards like Dev&Tech because a newbie bump has a high chance of being interesting/substantive, and there isn't that much traffic. Last-post ordering is not ideal in those sections, and some reform there could be useful, but this system would be worse.

In order for boards to be eligible for this bump treatment: 1) The first page of the board must always be full of topics with a last-post date within the last 24 hours, and 2) there must be a clear incentive for abusive bumping.

I think Theymos could add a way to sage your post if he wanted to..

Yes, it'd be fairly easy, but I'm thinking/hoping that mini-bumps will have a low enough effect in most cases that it won't be necessary.

It's getting to the point to where one needs to be quite educated in all of these systems to really understand how the forum works

I don't expect anyone to have a perfect understanding of these things. Exactly how eg. merit translates into forum rank is supposed to naturally support good forum operation, and it's not important that people know exactly how it works. I provide the technical details because some people will be interested, and I welcome suggestions for improvements.

Probably no single individual understands how eg. the YouTube recommendation system works...

For example, a zero-merit user posts in a thread and later gets a merit. Does the thread gain any bump score from that or not?

It does not. Also, when a user receives their first merit, they may not see the "bump" link for up to an hour due to caching.

The way I read it, you can delete your post so it still counts for the 7-day limit, but doesn't add to the bump score anymore. Then, you can post there again, and it won't add to the bump score because you've posted within the last 7 days already.

Correct, though I wish people just wouldn't worry about it... Note that due to caching it may take up to 15 minutes for any post deletion to affect the bump score.

1)   Is the bumping score transferred to the thread taking into account all decimals, or is it truncated, rounded at some point?
i.e. A profile with 1 earned merit over the last year Mini Bumps a thread (by posting), and thus adds 1% of his base power -> 1 earned merit * 1% = 0,01 bump points transferred.

It uses floats, so there will be some error. You won't be allowed to superbump if you would contribute less than 0.001 bump score.

That would mean that Mini Bump power is in no way affected by Superbumps. Is that correct ?.

Correct, neither affects the other.

Another thought: AFAIK the 24-hour post delete limit in ANNs was implemented to prevent shitbumpers from deleting their previous bump. Now that the bumping system is completely different perhaps the limit is no longer needed.

Maybe, but let's see how the new system works.

[JollyGood]

Should this implementation work as intended the big projects will be highly favoured and the small coins will be cut out forever, IMHO.

As if they were not "cut out" before - by shitbumping threads making a mockery of the frontpage.

You can still promote your project any way you want, including a sig campaign right here on the forum. At least now if you can get your project to the frontpage it's likely to stay there for more than 3 minutes.

For instance I'm working on promoting SLM as you can see.
I publish one post a day with something I consider interesting.
I was getting something like 100 people a day visiting the thread now I have 5.
So it doesn't make sense for me to write anything interesting on this forum, not in the appropriate section at least.
I can make valid contributions to the other threads to promote my signature, but it doesn't work that well.

Sadly that does seem to be one of the downsides to the whole new bump system. If any initiative as you put is not pushed by prominent users then others might get left behind.

We need to give it time to see how it plays out.

By other hand just consider one of the most important functions of bitcointalk.org for the cryptoworld: The new currencies announcements.
Let assume me, with other people here, are about to create some interesting new currency.
The 99% of the founders try any kind of tricks to get an important piece of cake before anybody else, the typical solution is the premine. In the early days the premine was a no-no, now it's almost accepted as an inevitable evil, but still there are many trying to make their currency and their acting appear fair.
So they try any kind of tricks.
I gathered a very large collection of this cases, the most funny ones are publishing announcement on the New Year's Eve, publishing the announcement on some unknown site pretending there are many people interested in crypto there, not mentioning the launch date and so on.
With this new anti-bumping feature the "fairness" of new currency is almost automatic.
Let me explain it better.
So me and other people here are working on the new currency and of course (I'm ironic here) we want to get the biggest piece of cake possible before anyone else.
We don't need to hide anything, we can publish our announcement months before the launch because we won't bump it and everybody that will suddenly come across our announcement won't bump it either, because he'll want his part of a cake too, so why should he advertise the announcement to the others?
The above seems to me another use case of the forum that is not coming out well from the anti-bumping feature.

Unfortunately in my experience getting merits has nothing to do with good content.

That's a statement which can only come from someone who has received a total of one (in numbers: 1) merit.

It can appear like that, but it's not so. I think I know how to earn merits without manipulating others into and without buying them, but consider one who has some ideas that are too new and people will need many time to get used to. He will get basically no merits.

And in the mean time this bumping system kills every initiative that is not promoted by big guys.

Let me rephrase this:
[..] this bumping system kills every scam promoted by newbies.

That's the positive aspect of this bumping system, but it will also hurt the action of people that have been in crypto for many years and that have something to say which is not just promoting the first 10-20 coins.
How many bumps can receive Etherium? And how many bumps can receive some small fair coin whose developers are working hard?

The angle you put on this situation is interesting because it exposes some of the possible flaws in the system and how it could be counter productive.

It is clear the search for a solution that is fair and consistent will be more difficult to achieve than previously thought if removing a merit based system. I still do not know what would be a good way to proceed and do not know if it is appropriate to have a view that newbie accounts will probably spam and other accounts will probably not.

[joblo]

I have a concern about the implementation.

It introduces a new sorting scheme while bypassing the existing sorting controls. It is possible to select
sorting by last post, or any other column, but no way to return to bump score sorting without jumping through
hoops (I don't like jumping through hoops).

IMO the way to have implemented this would have been to create a new bump score column which can be
used as a sort key like any other column.

An added bonus would be to have a user defined default so people who prefer last post sorting, like me,
don't have to constantly set it manually (more jumping through hoops).

[suchmoon]

jumping through hoops

Just bookmark the board with any sort order you prefer, no hoops needed.

[joblo]

Just bookmark the board with any sort order you prefer, no hoops needed.

Thanks, but if I do that I can't switch to bump score. With the current implementation the only way
to have bump score sorting is by default. If you switch to somthing else you can't switch back.

It's contradictory that bump score sorting is forcedencouraged by being the default but
it can't be selected manuallly.

[LoyceV]

It's contradictory that bump score sorting is forcedencouraged by being the default but
it can't be selected manuallly.

Just click the navigation under "MY MESSAGES": Announcements (Altcoins) brings you back to default sorting.

Or edit the URL:

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0;sort=last_post

Remove the last part to go back to default ("bump") sorting:

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0

[johnwhitestar]

The angle you put on this situation is interesting because it exposes some of the possible flaws in the system and how it could be counter productive.

It is clear the search for a solution that is fair and consistent will be more difficult to achieve than previously thought if removing a merit based system. I still do not know what would be a good way to proceed and do not know if it is appropriate to have a view that newbie accounts will probably spam and other accounts will probably not.

Thank you for your kind words, I'm quite used to my points not being understood for quite a long period initially so it makes me pleasure to meet here someone who can take into consideration my opinion.

To contribute a little bit more to this discussion, I'd like to say that this anti-bumping feature may paradoxically enhance the spam bumping.
Let's consider the situation of any honest promoter.
With the old bumping system it was possible to get some attention here, for instance posting once a day like what I'm doing.
With the new anti-bumping system to get some attention one needs to go around, posting things here and there to gather some merit, maybe expressing opinions that are not what he thinks but that make pleasure to someone and only then he'd be able to bump his announcement and/or his additional posts.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm saying that at some point it may become easier to pay some professional bumper.
And the fact I can't see who actually bumped my thread is not that relevant, as I can agree with the bumper to bump my thread at some moment in which I'm able to check that the announcement is actually bumped.
The professional bumpers will always win with this complex procedure of bumping, because they will create large merit farms that the small promoter doesn't have time and resources to create, and of course the community that doesn't have any kind of promoter will disappear here in oblivion.
The above along with the merit system, paid accounts for anonymous users, interested moderating, almost insurmountable wall of Google re-Captcha erected against the users with anti-tracing plugins will scare people even more out of here. And this forum may become more and more a ghost with professional promoters speaking to each other. So I agree with someone who has said here "Doing something is better than doing nothing? Maybe.".  

[LoyceV]

The professional bumpers will always win with this complex procedure of bumping, because they will create large merit farms that the small promoter doesn't have time and resources to create

Merit abusers have been called out by the community since the introduction of Merit, and eventually the abusers will run out of sMerit to send to their own accounts.
To earn large amounts of Merit (from large Merit sources), they'll have to create actual good posts. If "professional bumpers" start posting quality content to keep their business afloat, I'd say that's a win for the forum

[johnwhitestar]

The professional bumpers will always win with this complex procedure of bumping, because they will create large merit farms that the small promoter doesn't have time and resources to create

Merit abusers have been called out by the community since the introduction of Merit, and eventually the abusers will run out of sMerit to send to their own accounts.
To earn large amounts of Merit (from large Merit sources), they'll have to create actual good posts. If "professional bumpers" start posting quality content to keep their business afloat, I'd say that's a win for the forum

I hope so, but good posts may be bought and by other hand not everybody is able and should be able to create a quality content. If everybody were creating good content here, only very good content would receive merits. And if everybody would create very good content only the excellent content would receive merits, and so on. And in the same time is one who is able to create/buy a quality content is more capable to judge other's people content? (in the real world the writers and the critics are two different professions)

[LoyceV]

I think that the auto-stabilization property I described actually is desirable, though, so I changed the system to provide it. Now your super-bump power is: b*(1-0.15*^s/_b), where b is your base power and s is the total bump score you've contributed via superbumps over the last 30 days. This gives the same result as the previous algorithm except when any 30-day period overlaps with another.

I made a graph to fully understand what this means. With 1 Super bump per day, it takes a couple of months to stabilize to a certain Super bump power.



Just a thought: New topics still show up on top, so I can imagine someone creating the same topic every day, while archiving the last one.
Update: I was wrong

[The-One-Above-All]

I can make valid contributions to the other threads to promote my signature, but it doesn't work that well.

If you make valuable contributions elsewhere in the forum and earn merits - your own bumps to your thread will have more weight.

If you just post in other threads trying to get views for your signature - it might backfire.

Unfortunately in my experience getting merits has nothing to do with good content.
And in the mean time this bumping system kills every initiative that is not promoted by big guys.

Stop talking sense around here. Have you not noticed this is the twilight zone yet. Theymos is intent of automating everything and along the way turning this entire board into an echo chamber based on his brilliant "merit" design.

So now those that cycle the meaningless, misleading and dangerous junk will AUTOMATICALLY control

1. rank
2. other peoples paid2post eligibility
3. other peoples paid2post rates
4. the volume of the entire board in that now you your voice will not be heard at all unless you have a nice amount of EARNED merits.
5. their own personal access to the highest rates of paid2post
6. The trust system eligibility and selection process (what a shock they all feel EACH OTHER are the most trustworthy even though many are PROVEN scammers and financially dangerous.
7. The perceived trust of other members and themselves.
8. Therefore other peoples ability to trade on this board.
9. Peoples (public opinions) via wanting to obtain merits and not get red trust.
10. Idiots perceived opinions since they look at merit score as some kind of validation of true value.


So what controls all of these things. I mean surely the warden of this entire board would not base ALL OF THAT on anything other than the most solid and reliable metric right?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Hey "select few members" already having a ton of scamming and financially untrustworthy actions in your past... here have some magic points to give out to WHO YOU THINK SHOULD HAVE THEM based on ..... well just WHO YOU THINK SHOULD HAVE THEM based on what you consider a "good post" and "bad post"

Hahahahahahhahahhaha

Brilliant Theymos. This is genius work.

Perhaps take note of suchmoons statement good poster and bad poster are MEANINGLESS TERMS if there is no definition or strict criteria

This bumping being based on earned merit (with some activity consideration) is again nothing but saying the SAME PEOPLE YOU HAVE GIVEN CONTROL OF THE BOARD TO ALREADY are now going to control the volume of peoples voices.

Every action you have taken here lately simple "CENTRALIZES" control or CONCENTRATES control to a handful of chipmixer spammers.

Even the Lauda situation demonstrates that you are NOT SERIOUS about getting rid of these scamming, self serving scum bags even though the proof is right under your nose daily. That now his abuse is more entrenched in support than before the black list is a spectacle of how dreadful these designs are.

Merit is garbage and whilst you keep basing all these NEW AND CLEVER designs on top of it they will remain damaging garbage.

The DEVELOPERS who are not bothered with the shitty merit system and have no merits earned in the last year will not even have their voices heard under this new stupid design.

Suchmoon just said to some the person we are replying to " THAT HE WILL NEED TO CONTACT HER AND SHE MAY BUMP  IT "   LOL yeah I'll tell all the developers who have produced some excellent and inventive designs to ASK SUCHMOON IF THEIR VOICES CAN BE HEARD.

This forum is becoming a laughing stock. Well done theymos. A place where scammers and their supporters control every aspect.

Of course you will not DARE debate any of this and ignore or delete it like usual.

DISGRACEFUL.

ALL SYSTEMS BUILT UPON MERIT = FAIL

try to understand this simple concept.

Like the governments that do everything they can to prevent the little guy at the bottom not getting squeezed for every drop of revenue they can whilst ensure themselves and their friends are given EVERY OPPORTUNITY AND LOOP HOLE to keep their ill gotten gains from widespread corruption and gaming of the unfair systems. Whilst making sure the little guy has no voice. Whilst making sure there is serious punishment for speaking up.

Satoshi would be horrified at this centralizing of control into the hands of a few scammers and their supporters.

This is Undeniable so there shall be no debate. Theymos says well everyone in meta board agrees with my brilliant ideas so you must be the odd one out. LOL hahaa#

Meta board = the bunch of scumbags that have from the start been ensuring they grab all the power. Actually the meta board has long been the place we notice that all those seeking power have been attracted to hanging around in. This is NOT a representative sample of the entire board theymos.

It is impossible to tell really if theymos and the 40 thieves in meta are all part of one gang or that theymos is really the unwitting and naive leader who REALLY BELIEVES in the advice the 40 thieves ply him with daily. Whilst pretending to stop the bad guys taking over the board.

We keep hoping it is the latter but every time he keeps heaping advantage and centralizing control to his fav merit cyclers then it seems impossible (in light of the evidence that we keep shoving under his nose that merit is gamed and misleading garbage) that a person can be this dense. So it is concerning to see this MERIT metric again being used for gaining MORE advantage here. In theymos mind a developer who could have produced a novel design then his own words deserve less volume than some scamming moronic highly paid sig spammer in meta regarding his OWN PROJECT. So now they will have to ask the likes of suchmoon or tman please can you comment on the fork I have just been working on for months please on my thread. Sure says tman for a small fee that could be possible. Or if they ask nutildah then who knows what will be required.

What comes next for the "meta cycling gang" I mean there is only so much advantage they can be given now they control the volume of peoples voices.

It is undeniable that this latest move is just ANOTHER move from theymos to hand MORE power to observable scammers and their supporters.

Even if the intentions are good basing they systems on merit are simply giving power to the corrupt and greedy.

[suchmoon]

Just a thought: New topics still show up on top, so I can imagine someone creating the same topic every day, while archiving the last one.

Are you sure about that? I don't think I've seen a new topic on the front page of the ANN board yet since the bumping change.

[eddie13]

Just a thought: New topics still show up on top, so I can imagine someone creating the same topic every day, while archiving the last one.

Are you sure about that? I don't think I've seen a new topic on the front page of the ANN board yet since the bumping change.

Tested and it appeared near the bottom of the first page..

Maybe my bump power worked on the OP? Not sure how minibump power works on new OPs..
Moved it to archival..

[suchmoon]

Maybe my bump power worked on the OP? Not sure how minibump power works on new OPs..

I'm pretty sure it works the same way as any other post so that's what probably made your topic appear on the front page.

[JollyGood]

The angle you put on this situation is interesting because it exposes some of the possible flaws in the system and how it could be counter productive.

It is clear the search for a solution that is fair and consistent will be more difficult to achieve than previously thought if removing a merit based system. I still do not know what would be a good way to proceed and do not know if it is appropriate to have a view that newbie accounts will probably spam and other accounts will probably not.

Thank you for your kind words, I'm quite used to my points not being understood for quite a long period initially so it makes me pleasure to meet here someone who can take into consideration my opinion.

To contribute a little bit more to this discussion, I'd like to say that this anti-bumping feature may paradoxically enhance the spam bumping.
Let's consider the situation of any honest promoter.
With the old bumping system it was possible to get some attention here, for instance posting once a day like what I'm doing.
With the new anti-bumping system to get some attention one needs to go around, posting things here and there to gather some merit, maybe expressing opinions that are not what he thinks but that make pleasure to someone and only then he'd be able to bump his announcement and/or his additional posts.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm saying that at some point it may become easier to pay some professional bumper.
And the fact I can't see who actually bumped my thread is not that relevant, as I can agree with the bumper to bump my thread at some moment in which I'm able to check that the announcement is actually bumped.
The professional bumpers will always win with this complex procedure of bumping, because they will create large merit farms that the small promoter doesn't have time and resources to create, and of course the community that doesn't have any kind of promoter will disappear here in oblivion.
The above along with the merit system, paid accounts for anonymous users, interested moderating, almost insurmountable wall of Google re-Captcha erected against the users with anti-tracing plugins will scare people even more out of here. And this forum may become more and more a ghost with professional promoters speaking to each other. So I agree with someone who has said here "Doing something is better than doing nothing? Maybe.".  

No problem, your opinion is as equally as important as everyone else's. The forum needs diversity of opinions and open debates. I am sorry you feel that on occasions it takes time for others in the forum to fully understand your views by the manner in which you express them.

Going by your views the professional bumpers are in a win-win situation because of bump power but in the end it is an impossible task to make everybody happy and to get universal endorsement on a subject with as much polarity.

I understand where you are coming from but in the end a decision has been made by the forum owners/moderators and we just have to see how this works in the coming days and weeks. After that we all will be a in a  better position to comment further and ask for modifications if necessary.

[LoyceV]

Are you sure about that? I don't think I've seen a new topic on the front page of the ANN board yet since the bumping change.

You may be right, the new topic I saw was from a user with high Merit earnings.

[joblo]

It's contradictory that bump score sorting is forcedencouraged by being the default but
it can't be selected manuallly.

Just click the navigation under "MY MESSAGES": Announcements (Altcoins) brings you back to default sorting.

Or edit the URL:

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0;sort=last_post

Remove the last part to go back to default ("bump") sorting:

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0

WADR, I'm not looking for a workaround. I reported a design issue in the implementation of the feature
and its effect on usability. I also suggested a way to solve it. It's a matter of UI consistency.