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Author Topic: "Blockchain-as-a-Service" does it worth to use?  (Read 398 times)
franky1
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October 09, 2019, 05:31:23 PM
Last edit: Today at 05:53:53 AM by franky1
 #41

You didn't answer the question.

Do distributed systems' databases have to structured like a "blockchain", or not? Plus do they really need to be "append-only"? But, in the context of the topic, they're centralized.

thre is no law OFCOURSE to say that people need to convert to blockchains. so thats why i avoided answering your obvious question.


I'm only trying to learn why it has to be "a blockchain", if it's private and centralized, and that a database would be more effective and efficient.

Is a centralized blockchain more efficient than an append only database? Because everyone wants to ride the blockchain bandwagon.

an append only database in a central store means everyone has control and access of a single file,
imagine 100,000 people all having access to your computer. you dont know who really just hacked it and deleted the file, you dont know who just scrubbed the log files and you dont know who could do it again.
also someone can then replace it with a different copy that they pre-edited/created before popping it into your computer.
so you employ IT guys, you get auditors in, you even employ HR guys to vet people that access it. security guys that approve or revoke access to people.

an append only database distributed across multiple systems
means everyones copy just adds new entries but has no hash or chaining function to check previous entries are not edited easily
meaning it requires more labour and time and money to do stuff

but blockchains without any labour self manages and audits all the systems and keeps the database robust. think about it have you ever needed to manually request your node to verify stuff.. have you had to manually ban mischievous nodes. or has the system been self reliant with no labour overhead/costs


edit (gmaxwell has gone on a censorship power trip)
to answer points in posts below
Im still yet to see an application of blockchain that isn't Bitcoin, and that isn't just falling more on the gimmick side of things. Why would you need a blockchain for an enterprise, when there's already very secure mySQL databases which can be modified only if X people allow it and whatnot? And you can keep track of all modifications in a log.

ok take the UTXO set and imagine that it is just account balance,
imagine its backed up only once a day. thats 3.5GB a day.
imagine having to keep the backups for 10 years. thats 12 terrabytes
(you should already by now se the benefit. 250gb vs 12terrabyte)

also by only holding a 'current balance' log once a day. its not logging where thee funds came from, and its not logging all the movements during the day, its just showing the balance at a specific time of say midnight each night.

12 terrabytes and no tracking, validity of funds or anything. and only for 1 'block' a day logging
if this was done every 10 minutes still without all the movement logs thats 144 times bigger
thats 1.7petabytes
(you definetly should be seeing the advantage by now)

and yet blockchain can store all the validity of all transactions throughout a day, every day and every year for 10 years, ensuring no one just magic up new funds with no genesys..  all for less than 250gb,
along with storage saving. the data is more complete with chain of transaction movements during the day, its also auditor and IT security staff saving too. and no special HR department looking into staff pc usage.

so thats the data size and data security, human costs and auditing covered.(all explain more about the security/human involvement below)
next is the point you made about mysql data base with permissions set that only a certain group can maintain the database

there's already very secure mySQL databases which can be modified only if X people allow it and whatnot? And you can keep track of all modifications in a log.

this then puts a central authority that needs to be there to approve/revoke abilities.
imagine a company was founded and they employed a CEO while the founders became board members
those people would spend hours discussing who has what powers who can edit the single datafile, who can do this do that.
to prevent the CEO from going rogue the board mmbrs would ned to be watching the CEO's every keystroke to prevent rogue things happening. as they obviously wouldnt want the rogue act to occur and then handle the aftermath.

in a blockchain this is not nessesary. no one can edit the blockchain, because all locations reject versions/edits that dont fit the majority.
so if a employee went rogue. its not like the mysql system would prevent it. instead the damage is done. the damage is noticed(too late) the rogue employee then has their privileges revoked and fired.(AFTER the damage is done)
in blockchain a employee wouldnt even be able to be rogue to even cause the damage first off. instead the system will maintain itself and keep good clean records of what should be there,where the rejected edit would get reported. thus employee fired without causing the damage.
this takes IT guys to maintain a watchlist. auditors to audit the file, HR to audit the permissions list, HR audit its staff,

as an example, bitcoin does this with its ban ip function. if it receives bad data that doesnt follow the rules the data is rejected and the malicious node is banned from future relaying. all without any human ending to tap their finger
this is something mysql database systems do not offer

remember blockchain is not just a database (blk file) blockchain is a technology that secures the data without human decision/power

The way the blockchain was structured is to make it work in a global network. Bitcoin is adversarial in nature and the whole incentive mechanism goes along with how the blockchain works and does what it does. Without the token-incentive mechanism and PoW I fail to see an application for it that is really relevant.

no
BITCOIN was made to be global
BITCOIN was made to be adversarial
BITCOIN had an incentive mechanism to promote competition
but BLOCKCHAINS dont need to be global, nor adversarial

blockchains solution to the byzantine generals rule is to be mutally in agreement(consensus)
the adversarial part is to reward people for putting more computing power into making a ever increasing harder hash.
take away the incentive people wont increase the hash hardness. but the evr increasing hash hardness is not an essential fature for a private blockchain nor is an incentive

bitcoin is not a good example of blockchains full utility/ability anymore because bitcoin bypasses many critical checks and allows things to be slid in without consensus. not only that but bitcoin is only a small niche usecase of all the possibilities

take airport security(passenger lists/passports/freight/customs/border control). they have to inter-communicate across countries, but dont trust each others countries so want to secure data independantly. not to be adversarial, but to mutually coexist so that the word "trust" does not even come into the conversation

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Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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October 11, 2019, 06:06:19 AM
 #42

You didn't answer the question.

Do distributed systems' databases have to structured like a "blockchain", or not? Plus do they really need to be "append-only"? But, in the context of the topic, they're centralized.

thre is no law OFCOURSE to say that people need to convert to blockchains. so thats why i avoided answering your obvious question.


I'm only trying to learn why it has to be "a blockchain", if it's private and centralized, and that a database would be more effective and efficient.

Is a centralized blockchain more efficient than an append only database? Because everyone wants to ride the blockchain bandwagon.

an append only database in a central store means everyone has control and access of a single file,
imagine 100,000 people all having access to your computer. you dont know who really just hacked it and deleted the file, you dont know who just scrubbed the log files and you dont know who could do it again.
also someone can then replace it with a different copy that they pre-edited/created before popping it into your computer.
so you employ IT guys, you get auditors in, you even employ HR guys to vet people that access it. security guys that approve or revoke access to people.

an append only database distributed across multiple systems
means everyones copy just adds new entries but has no hash or chaining function to check previous entries are not edited easily
meaning it requires more labour and time and money to do stuff

but blockchains without any labour self manages and audits all the systems and keeps the database robust. think about it have you ever needed to manually request your node to verify stuff.. have you had to manually ban mischievous nodes. or has the system been self reliant with no labour overhead/costs

But isn't it as easy to cheat, or change the data in a centralized blockchain because there's no Proof of Work? What's the point of it?


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pereira4
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October 11, 2019, 07:47:10 PM
 #43

You didn't answer the question.

Do distributed systems' databases have to structured like a "blockchain", or not? Plus do they really need to be "append-only"? But, in the context of the topic, they're centralized.

thre is no law OFCOURSE to say that people need to convert to blockchains. so thats why i avoided answering your obvious question.


I'm only trying to learn why it has to be "a blockchain", if it's private and centralized, and that a database would be more effective and efficient.

Is a centralized blockchain more efficient than an append only database? Because everyone wants to ride the blockchain bandwagon.

an append only database in a central store means everyone has control and access of a single file,
imagine 100,000 people all having access to your computer. you dont know who really just hacked it and deleted the file, you dont know who just scrubbed the log files and you dont know who could do it again.
also someone can then replace it with a different copy that they pre-edited/created before popping it into your computer.
so you employ IT guys, you get auditors in, you even employ HR guys to vet people that access it. security guys that approve or revoke access to people.

an append only database distributed across multiple systems
means everyones copy just adds new entries but has no hash or chaining function to check previous entries are not edited easily
meaning it requires more labour and time and money to do stuff

but blockchains without any labour self manages and audits all the systems and keeps the database robust. think about it have you ever needed to manually request your node to verify stuff.. have you had to manually ban mischievous nodes. or has the system been self reliant with no labour overhead/costs

But isn't it as easy to cheat, or change the data in a centralized blockchain because there's no Proof of Work? What's the point of it?

Im still yet to see an application of blockchain that isn't Bitcoin, and that isn't just falling more on the gimmick side of things. Why would you need a blockchain for an enterprise, when there's already very secure mySQL databases which can be modified only if X people allow it and whatnot? And you can keep track of all modifications in a log.

The way the blockchain was structured is to make it work in a global network. Bitcoin is adversarial in nature and the whole incentive mechanism goes along with how the blockchain works and does what it does. Without the token-incentive mechanism and PoW I fail to see an application for it that is really relevant.
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Today at 05:58:02 AM
 #44

Hahaha. I read franky1's reply before it was deleted, and he was comparing a theoretical "12 terrabyte sized database" to a "250 gigameg, sorry community joke, gigabyte sized blockchain". I believe that's the Bitcoin blockchain, and debates that Bitcoin saved more in storage "because blockchain".

It was because the CORE DEVELOPERS maintained small blocks and saw the LONG TERM advantages, not simply because it's "a blockchain".


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