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Author Topic: Bitcoin Privacy - How easy it is for someone to find all your wallets addresses  (Read 428 times)
prix
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September 23, 2019, 04:31:36 AM
 #21

With the ongoing growth of exchanges like LocalBitcoin, Paxful, and BISQ, as well as a large peer-to-peer marketplace on this forum and others, there isn't really an absolute need to use a centralized exchange.

Unfortunately, LocalBitcoins is no longer the good example for such mention. They actively cooperate with the finnish authorities and applied the KYC/AML by introducing a mandatory KYC starting from 1k euro per year. And the fact that they store funds at their addresses makes them somewhat closer to centralized exchanges.

https://localbitcoins.com/blog/id-verification-update/

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September 23, 2019, 08:28:06 AM
 #22

https://www.walletexplorer.com

Just paste some any used address there.
The website will show you all addresses that its inputs were used together in a single transaction.
It doesnt mean what you think it does. Inputs/outputs is how bitcoin works but it doesnt mean user X spend it.
Privacy is needed for Bitcoin as one of most important addition that should be worked on. It is. When it will be ready nobody knows.
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September 23, 2019, 09:06:10 AM
 #23

Unfortunately, LocalBitcoins is no longer the good example for such mention.
Thanks for that info. It's been a while since I used LBC, and wasn't aware of their new KYC regulations. Another exchange to avoid, then. What a shame.

Inputs/outputs is how bitcoin works but it doesnt mean user X spend it.
It is possible to link multiple inputs in the same transaction together, though. If you know I own address A, and you see a transaction with both address A and address B sending coins to address C, you can reasonably assume I own address B (as well as address D, the change address, if you can tell which output is change). You can then look at address B, and similarly link it to some other addresses. Rinse and repeat.
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September 23, 2019, 09:57:54 AM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (1)
 #24

With the ongoing growth of exchanges like LocalBitcoin, Paxful, and BISQ, as well as a large peer-to-peer marketplace on this forum and others, there isn't really an absolute need to use a centralized exchange. Sure, it might be easier and quicker, but it's very rare that using one is your only option.

Maybe for very small volumes, but you need to consider security as well. Depending on how much you are invested, it is very risky and uncomfortable to use those services you mentioned.

For example, if you want to sell 3 BTC. That's like 30k USD now. Would you do it in this forum? In a service like BISQ?

You cannot do it in small quantities like 300 USD each time, it would take 100 txs.

Personally, I trust much more in an environment like Coinbase or Bitstamp or Binance. Don't you think?

I really doubt those exchanges are not going to sell your documents to scammers around the world.
Don't you use exchanges for traditional investments, like Interactive Brokers (IB)? Don't you have a bank account somewhere, where you did KYC? They need your documents as well. Are you affraid they are going to sell it online?

Using IB or Coinbase is like the same to me. Coinbase is heavily regulated already, as far as I know.

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September 23, 2019, 11:54:39 AM
 #25

For example, if you want to sell 3 BTC. That's like 30k USD now. Would you do it in this forum? In a service like BISQ?
Yeah, I'd use Bisq, and probably be looking for cash, although I might accept some form of money transfer if I was desperate for fiat in a hurry. Bisq uses security deposits and multi-sig escrow. My bitcoin would not be released to the buyer until I confirmed I was paid. I would feel happier doing that than I would do using a centralized exchange and wondering if they were going to freeze my account, demand to know the source of my bitcoin, and ask ridiculously invasive KYC questions.

Personally, I trust much more in an environment like Coinbase or Bitstamp or Binance. Don't you think?
Each to their own. I trust exchanges as far as I could hypothetically throw them.

I really doubt those exchanges are not going to sell your documents to scammers around the world.
Coinbase have already admitted selling customers' data to third parties without their knowledge or consent. Binance were hacked for thousands of users' worth of KYC documents. There have been plenty of other leaks and hacks we know about. Think about how many we don't know about.

Don't you have a bank account somewhere, where you did KYC?
Unfortunately, yes. I have a job which pays in fiat, and I still require fiat to pay for most of my bills and living expenses. However, that doesn't mean I should just give up all hope of privacy and send my KYC documents to anyone who wants them.
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September 24, 2019, 01:43:44 AM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (1)
 #26

Don't you use exchanges for traditional investments, like Interactive Brokers (IB)? Don't you have a bank account somewhere, where you did KYC? They need your documents as well. Are you affraid they are going to sell it online?
In Germany we still have some "less invasive" requirements to open a normal bank account (without online banking). It's possible to go to a local bank store, ask for a bank account and your identity will be verified there, by showing them only your government ID. Of course they'll note your name, address and ID number to link it to your account but when I see which crazy requirements users have to deliever on crypto exchanges, maybe even after funds are already locked, thats insane. So, the procedure here is much better.* AFAIK, there is no need to upload documents if you register locally.
For everything else I'm using cash, Germany is one of the few countries where cash is still very valued in public even if some people are pushing negative and misleading claims against it very hard.

*I know, this procedure is still not perfect since the database of the bank can be hacked, a better model would be where the name of the account owner isn't directly linked but is stored offline in the (offline) archives of the bank and if there's any violation by the bank account the name of the account owner can be checked in case if there's a suspicion manually. Everything stored offline. That would work finde to prevent money laundering / terrorism financing while securing the privacy of normal users...I've still the hope that people will realize how important privacy is and start to claim it (again).  Cheesy


I'm always wondering why consumer protection doesn't play any role in the KYC discussion. There's only much talk about how to prevent terrorism, how to prevent money laundering and how to push stricter KYC. It's nothing about consumer protection when we are put at risk of identity theft by enforced KYC everywhere. And even if we don't handle much money we are forced to do KYC if we want to convert fiat to crypto / crypto to fiat or if our exchange has already frozen our funds because of some random reasons.  Roll Eyes

The whole problem is digitalizing user data and sending it away where we don't know how it's handled. Is it sold to 3rd parties? Will it be hacked? Who will gain access? I've no doubt that digitalized data handled on centralized services will be hacked somewhere in the future and that's why I've also a strong aversion against using any fingerprint / retina scan verification (besides KYC  Tongue). If that's hacked we can't get it back (never!) because it's an unique data set. Hackers can do a lot of damage when they gain access to such biometric data.
Users are exposed to huge risks with submitting digital data like for KYC and I'm missing the consumer protection part totally in this debate. The KYC discussion has gotten way to unbalanced and it seems it's going further away from any customer perspective.

We don't have much choice here I guess but personally I'm boycotting as much as possible all services where invasive KYC is required. The purchase of physical gold with cash in Germany was lowered to 2000€ (2200$) per day recently and some crypto services require much lower levels already when KYC is enforced...

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o_e_l_e_o
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September 24, 2019, 05:11:58 AM
 #27

I'm always wondering why consumer protection doesn't play any role in the KYC discussion.
Because exchanges don't care. They care only about their profits, and not at all about their customers.

Take Coinbase as an example. At the end of last year they upgraded their cold storage system. They spent millions on research, development, and implementation. They spent months doing practice runs of moving all their coins from the old to the new wallets. It was a huge undertaking, and most valuable mass movement of bitcoin ever.

Where is the millions spent on securing their KYC database? Where are the months of practicing to make sure that database is secure before it is used? Nowhere. In fact, a few months after this cold storage upgrade and it emerges they are willingly selling clients' data to third parties.

Add in unannounced and surprise KYC, accounts being locked for weeks or months on end, terrible customer service, etc., (not just on Coinbase but across most exchanges) and it's pretty clear exchanges don't care about you. They only care about your money.
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