What to do about people who believe that stealing is ok

[Elwar]

I have been all over the world and have found that there are some cultures that feel that stealing is perfectly fine.

The solution to theft in most of the world is to discourage it through shame and punishment. But some parts of the world do not really see it as wrong. There is no point in shaming and while it may be technically against the law, it is not really enforced because it's "not that bad".

The thing I notice in these cultures is that every individual takes measures into their own hands to protect their goods and property. They have bars on the windows, razor wire fences, etc. (even the poorest homes are barred up). There is usually someone in the more populated areas when you park your car who watches your car for you (upon receiving payment), etc.

Most people in the west do not need to deal with this and are perhaps lucky in living in a place where theft is not as common.

But the countries where theft is common, people are better at preventing theft. I can see why someone from one of these countries going to the US would think "they just let you walk into the grocery store and take food off of the shelves by yourself...no guards at the door or anything", "people leave their homes unprotected with just windows that can be broken", "look, a perfectly good car with so many parts for the taking unprotected".

I see a few solutions...everyone evolves protection of their own property (either paying for a service or taking measures into your own hands every day of your life). Or it becomes exclusionary based where thieves are not allowed in a certain area and that area restricts newcomers allowing those in the protected area to live without too much worry about their property.

I'm not sure which is the better solution. The first solution sucks needing to worry about thieves every day, the second solution makes people soft and sort of prisoners of their location.

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[TECSHARE]

Glad to see you are back and active here again. Regarding your topic, the Western world is a high trust level society. What you are describing is a low trust level society. This is largely a cultural issue, so the solutions are more systemic and institutional than individual fixes. In my opinion a lot of it has to do with corruption in government and law enforcement. If the law doesn't apply to those in power, people have no respect for the rule of law any longer because it is only imposed on them and not used to protect them. It is like playing a game where everyone is cheating. The honest player always loses and that mentality is difficult to reverse. Of course there are ways such as personally imposing harsh penalties to send a message, but most people don't have the stomach for that.

This conundrum is one of the main reasons I am very much in support of gun ownership in the US, because even in low trust areas such as cities, crooks know they are rolling the dice and it is only a matter of time before they catch a bullet. This is a very effective deterrent that people often completely ignore when advocating for gun bans/restrictions. People don't appreciate how nice it is to live in a high trust society and how easily that can break down when it is not maintained. Even harder is rebuilding a high trust society from a low trust one once it is lost.

[inthelongrun]

At first most people with common sense (probably educated too) would say this is nonsense because stealing is impossible to be okay. But few years ago when I was in Qatar, I met a Tamil guy from Sri Lanka. I can say this guy got good manners and hospitable. He is careful not to offend you and is respectful. He graduated college too with a degree in finance. He is also very religious (prays every 3 hours).

One time we had a conversation about economy and business in our own country. He told me that in their rural place, no business owned by outsiders last long. Either their locals will do something like stealing, burning, sabotage and other unlawful activities. I was shocked he told me that stealing on rich people is okay. He said that if rich people won't help the poor then stealing to them is okay. He feels that rich people have mandatory responsibilities to poor people and communities. And that if a rich man is not allowing to lend money or food to a poor man then the latter should just steal it or even kill him for being selfish.

Different places and cultures with different beliefs and teachings. The wrong teachings and beliefs molded from these kind of people needs to be changed but it won't be easy.       

[squatz1]

Glad to see you are back and active here again. Regarding your topic, the Western world is a high trust level society. What you are describing is a low trust level society. This is largely a cultural issue, so the solutions are more systemic and institutional than individual fixes. In my opinion a lot of it has to do with corruption in government and law enforcement. If the law doesn't apply to those in power, people have no respect for the rule of law any longer because it is only imposed on them and not used to protect them. It is like playing a game where everyone is cheating. The honest player always loses and that mentality is difficult to reverse. Of course there are ways such as personally imposing harsh penalties to send a message, but most people don't have the stomach for that.

This conundrum is one of the main reasons I am very much in support of gun ownership in the US, because even in low trust areas such as cities, crooks know they are rolling the dice and it is only a matter of time before they catch a bullet. This is a very effective deterrent that people often completely ignore when advocating for gun bans/restrictions. People don't appreciate how nice it is to live in a high trust society and how easily that can break down when it is not maintained. Even harder is rebuilding a high trust society from a low trust one once it is lost.

I'd have to agree with all of this, mostly the first portion at least.

In America we do live in a VERY high trust society. People are more or less trusted to be doing the right things at most times. Now if that is due to people just being trusting in the states, or if they're just scared of the embarassement and consequences, that's another thing.

But yeah -- other cultures accept this a little differently. Maybe this could be a society/country/culture that feels as if they're owed what they're stealing, or that they deserve it or something along those lines.

[Wa Da Fak]

Glad to see you are back and active here again. Regarding your topic, the Western world is a high trust level society. What you are describing is a low trust level society. This is largely a cultural issue, so the solutions are more systemic and institutional than individual fixes. In my opinion a lot of it has to do with corruption in government and law enforcement. If the law doesn't apply to those in power, people have no respect for the rule of law any longer because it is only imposed on them and not used to protect them. It is like playing a game where everyone is cheating. The honest player always loses and that mentality is difficult to reverse. Of course there are ways such as personally imposing harsh penalties to send a message, but most people don't have the stomach for that.

This conundrum is one of the main reasons I am very much in support of gun ownership in the US, because even in low trust areas such as cities, crooks know they are rolling the dice and it is only a matter of time before they catch a bullet. This is a very effective deterrent that people often completely ignore when advocating for gun bans/restrictions. People don't appreciate how nice it is to live in a high trust society and how easily that can break down when it is not maintained. Even harder is rebuilding a high trust society from a low trust one once it is lost.

I'd have to agree with all of this, mostly the first portion at least.

In America we do live in a VERY high trust society. People are more or less trusted to be doing the right things at most times. Now if that is due to people just being trusting in the states, or if they're just scared of the embarassement and consequences, that's another thing.

But yeah -- other cultures accept this a little differently. Maybe this could be a society/country/culture that feels as if they're owed what they're stealing, or that they deserve it or something along those lines.

Well first they have a reason why they steal if its for good use well it can be okay but if its for bad intention like greed in money but if you do it for your family or any valid reasons then it is okay.

There are many beliefs that every country and people have if they believe that it's okay well I respect it but they need to face and know that every country have a Law in stealing and they have to face the consequence if they got caught.

[TECSHARE]

I have been all over the world and have found that there are some cultures that feel that stealing is perfectly fine.

The solution to theft in most of the world is to discourage it through shame and punishment. But some parts of the world do not really see it as wrong. There is no point in shaming and while it may be technically against the law, it is not really enforced because it's "not that bad".

The thing I notice in these cultures is that every individual takes measures into their own hands to protect their goods and property. They have bars on the windows, razor wire fences, etc. (even the poorest homes are barred up). There is usually someone in the more populated areas when you park your car who watches your car for you (upon receiving payment), etc.

Most people in the west do not need to deal with this and are perhaps lucky in living in a place where theft is not as common.

But the countries where theft is common, people are better at preventing theft. I can see why someone from one of these countries going to the US would think "they just let you walk into the grocery store and take food off of the shelves by yourself...no guards at the door or anything", "people leave their homes unprotected with just windows that can be broken", "look, a perfectly good car with so many parts for the taking unprotected".

I see a few solutions...everyone evolves protection of their own property (either paying for a service or taking measures into your own hands every day of your life). Or it becomes exclusionary based where thieves are not allowed in a certain area and that area restricts newcomers allowing those in the protected area to live without too much worry about their property.

I'm not sure which is the better solution. The first solution sucks needing to worry about thieves every day, the second solution makes people soft and sort of prisoners of their location.

Theft is genetically embedded in us.  Theft is a way of survival.  And more openly in where there is a weak economy.  Where you need to do something to survive..

You were warned about your low quality posting. I would take it seriously because you are not only at risk of losing your signature pay but being banned entirely. Put in a little more effort than these empty self evident one liners. You seem capable, just put in the effort and stop treating this forum like your personal tool for profit while contributing absolutely nothing to it and filling it with this nonsense.

[squatz1]

Glad to see you are back and active here again. Regarding your topic, the Western world is a high trust level society. What you are describing is a low trust level society. This is largely a cultural issue, so the solutions are more systemic and institutional than individual fixes. In my opinion a lot of it has to do with corruption in government and law enforcement. If the law doesn't apply to those in power, people have no respect for the rule of law any longer because it is only imposed on them and not used to protect them. It is like playing a game where everyone is cheating. The honest player always loses and that mentality is difficult to reverse. Of course there are ways such as personally imposing harsh penalties to send a message, but most people don't have the stomach for that.

This conundrum is one of the main reasons I am very much in support of gun ownership in the US, because even in low trust areas such as cities, crooks know they are rolling the dice and it is only a matter of time before they catch a bullet. This is a very effective deterrent that people often completely ignore when advocating for gun bans/restrictions. People don't appreciate how nice it is to live in a high trust society and how easily that can break down when it is not maintained. Even harder is rebuilding a high trust society from a low trust one once it is lost.

I'd have to agree with all of this, mostly the first portion at least.

In America we do live in a VERY high trust society. People are more or less trusted to be doing the right things at most times. Now if that is due to people just being trusting in the states, or if they're just scared of the embarassement and consequences, that's another thing.

But yeah -- other cultures accept this a little differently. Maybe this could be a society/country/culture that feels as if they're owed what they're stealing, or that they deserve it or something along those lines.

Well first they have a reason why they steal if its for good use well it can be okay but if its for bad intention like greed in money but if you do it for your family or any valid reasons then it is okay.

There are many beliefs that every country and people have if they believe that it's okay well I respect it but they need to face and know that every country have a Law in stealing and they have to face the consequence if they got caught.

No. This is exactly what we're talking about here.

There is never a good reason to steal from another person -- it doesn't matter if the rich or the poor or doing it it doesn't make it okay or better in anyway. If we are to say that  some people get a [pass for stealing while others do not, we've allowed for this sort of idea to spread.

[Judge-Dredd]

@Elwar

In the countries and cultures that are nonchalant about theft, are the penalties the same? For example in the US retail theft is pretty much a guaranteed misdemeanor charge and if the item stolen is over $200 (I think) in value the crime actually becomes larceny.

I'd be interested to know if in the areas of the world where theft is more commonplace are the penalties less harsh.

I'm against theft in any form regardless of the circumstances. A lot of the time, but not always, if the situation is life or death i.e. needing food to survive there are people that are willing to help that don't need to be stolen from. There are a lot of examples of that in the news here in the US or situations where someone did steal food to survive and the shop owner or grocery store or even the arresting officer ends up purchasing the food or giving it to the needy person for free.

I'm also against government intervention in just about anything but a basic security structure for citizens certainly makes maintaining a peaceful civilization easier. I'd imagine everyone having barbed wire fencing and private security guards for all of their belongings is not an ideal society.

[johhnyUA]

The solution to theft in most of the world is to discourage it through shame and punishment. But some parts of the world do not really see it as wrong. There is no point in shaming and while it may be technically against the law, it is not really enforced because it's "not that bad".

In Ukraine many people think that stealing from rich is normal. To steal something from rich guy or store is normal. It follows from  marxist theory (communists, socialists) in which "capitalists" already stole from you (without it they wouldn't be rich) so it normal to take from them what "really" deserves to you.

In some point this is true in reality of all post USSR region, where oligarchs in most really have stolen from other people.  

The thing I notice in these cultures is that every individual takes measures into their own hands to protect their goods and property

This is normal. I ll tell you more: This is how it should be in healty and really free society. Great example - USA and Switzerland.

Most people in the west do not need to deal with this and are perhaps lucky in living in a place where theft is not as common.

Most people in the West can be shooted by police without much reason. Or they can be taken to police station without any reasons just for "cheking of identity". I saw with my own eyes a man in Paris who have been taken by police just for using foul language.

I see a few solutions...everyone evolves protection of their own property (either paying for a service or taking measures into your own hands every day of your life)

In my view this is only right solution.

Or it becomes exclusionary based where thieves are not allowed in a certain area and that area restricts newcomers allowing those in the protected area to live without too much worry about their property.

Thieves never allowed anywhere. Just in some places due to economics factors (mostly) or culture (more rare) there many thieves.

I'm not sure which is the better solution. The first solution sucks needing to worry about thieves every day, the second solution makes people soft and sort of prisoners of their location.

Here is quote from Benjamin Franklin - "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

You can delegate your liberty to protect yourself to police or goverment or Jesus Christ, it soesn't matter to whom. As a result you will lost not only freedom of protection but all others. And in that case you will be done, because you can kill thief or a bandit. But you would never be allowed to protect yourself from policeman or special services

[Strongkored]

The thing that makes them think like that is culture or arguably the social life of the environment allows or allows such things to happen, more when people commit theft for humanitarian reasons for example food for their children or parents.

Of course I cannot tolarate anything like this for any reason, but when it comes to dealing with the social environment it is difficult to say that stealing is wrong.

Not only in the real world but in the online world many do not consider it important to be honest, it ss caused by greed because they want to get alot in quick time.

The mindest really determines the way we judge this, and ofthe that mindset is formed because the social environment allows things like theft.

[darkangel11]

The thing I notice in these cultures is that every individual takes measures into their own hands to protect their goods and property. They have bars on the windows, razor wire fences, etc. (even the poorest homes are barred up). There is usually someone in the more populated areas when you park your car who watches your car for you (upon receiving payment), etc.

This immediately made me think of South Africa. You can get robbed on your own front lawn there in the middle of the day. You can get shot in the street. You can get your car stolen GTA style (where they drag you out into the street, jump in and drive away). A saw a video where a guy shoots a robber in the middle of a busy street and the police comes, they see a robber crying for help with a bullet hole and they ignore him and start taking the shooter's statement.

I know what stealing you're referring to but when you're the government you are not stealing. You are lawfully commandeering

[johhnyUA]

This immediately made me think of South Africa. You can get robbed on your own front lawn there in the middle of the day. You can get shot in the street. You can get your car stolen GTA style (where they drag you out into the street, jump in and drive away).

In Ukraine you can be robbed by police (it's very often happens) and you car can be stolen (not like in GTA, but not less effectively) by former cops who then will give you a chance to buy it back from them just for 50-60 % of initial price.

I saw a video where a guy shoots a robber in the middle of a busy street and the police comes, they see a robber crying for help with a bullet hole and they ignore him and start taking the shooter's statement.

Lol, in Ukraine it's often to see a grenade in bar conflict. It was close to me to be blown up one time.

[Elwar]

I asked about the theft culture in one country I was in. They said that because there was such plentiful food growing on trees ("if you are hungry you can pick a breadfruit and feed your family") that people have grown to be scavengers. You go fishing, you pick fruit, you walk along the road and if you see something, you take it. If someone's house is unprotected, you stop by and grab what you want. No big deal.

As far as the punishment for theft, there was one factory that decided to have the police set up a check point as the workers were leaving one day and check everyone's car for stolen items from the factory. Every single car had something they had stolen. The police ended up just letting them all go because they could not round them all up.

I agree with the high trust and low trust thing. Perhaps this is why many Americans are against open borders, the cultures clash quite a bit in those regards. I believe Stephan Moleneux touches on this as part of the reason for the fall of the Roman empire.

I do not believe that the solution is to teach another culture not to steal. I do not believe Communism will work because they require that everyone stops being greedy...I do not think that any system that requires everyone to think the same way is a good system.

It does come down to each person to protect their own property. Perhaps automation can clear up much of this. Maybe a combination of a blockchain based reputation system and ways to capture evidence against thieves would allow for exclusion or some sort of automated warning when a known thief is nearby.

Someone who has been proven to steal may suddenly have mini drones hovering around him when he enters a store, watching his every move until he leaves. A micro location device embedded in everything. etc.

I do not think that having someone protect you from theft is that bad. Most places I have lived in in these places were a place where I had to pass by a security guard to get to my residence. I felt better that they were there.

Having bars on your windows is not liberty...that's more like living in your own prison.

[actmyname]

In some religions, there is the religious concept of dharma and (correct me if I'm wrong) in some Indian creeds you have gods are both benevolent and those that succumb to temptation... that is, disorder, evil.

The justification, then, for one's immoral actions comes from an ideological standpoint where even the gods fall to temptation and hence humans, who must evidently have a weaker will, should not have qualms with sinful acts - or rather, should not have significant regret thereof.There is also a heavy scam culture in China, wherein the thought process drifts towards, "if you get scammed, you deserve it," creating a market surrounding swindles and cons. The skepticism even goes back several generations, where you have the government requesting family members to snitch on one another if they were showing signs of dissent.

[Jet Cash]

Stealing is an admission of self-failure. If you are incapable of earning money by your own efforts, or because of your addiction to drugs, alcohol, vaping, or some other damaging obsession, then it is easy to steal the results of others hard work. Of course, this is at a personal level, we have a different situation with international politics. For example, the attempts by the US to steal the natural resources of other countries like Venezuela, seems to be accepted by many people. If you adopt a lifestyle that includes systematic theft, then eventually some of your victims will turn against you, and you will find that your choice of friends is restricted.

[tvbcof]

The Philippines where I am now is funny about these things.  I'm property searching at the moment.  I don't think that anyone has yet told me the truth about property lines for instance.  Just today someone tried to tell me that capital gains tax was 10% higher than it actually is.

What is funny to me is that people are so stupid about lying and cheating.  Most populations are bright enough (or something) not to lie about things which are almost certain to be discovered.  Not Filipinos.  Half the time I already knew the answer before asking the question, and the other half I planned to (and did) find out the facts before laying any money down.  I just validate things a lot more and make sure that everything is done in such a way that the seller could not make money by cheating me.  Most Filipinos don't have money for attorneys, or at least don't choose to allocate money in that way, so I guess they don't imagine that the other party would have one.  Of course attorneys themselves are not above cheating and are hardly the most reliable people either so they must be watched and double-checked as well.

All this stuff is just part of learning a new country and culture from the inside.  It's kind of fun actually.  At least the challenges are entertaining.  Like I say, the people are so inept at being dishonest that it's relatively easy to avoid being cheated.  The real danger is that the criminals are every bit as stupid.  You cannot count on one of them recognizing that doing a real crime against you will result in their own certain death or imprisonment.  They simply do not or can not think that far ahead.  To protect yourself you need to think differently than in a place like the U.S..

Filipinos are amazingly suspicious of their own countrymen, and especially if the person is from a different part of the country.  I can now see why.  Many/most Filipinos live relatively safely because they really don't have much to lose to someone else.  Most people who do choose (wisely) to lives in a gated and guarded community.

[yoseph]

Stealing became perfectly okay when people started labelling Robin Hood as a hero, there is absolutely no right to steal even if you claim to be stealling from the rich to give to the poor. I believe that those who actually think that it is okay to steal should have their valuables stolen so that we will be able to know if they are going to stick to that same notion.

[tvbcof]

Stealing became perfectly okay when people started labelling Robin Hood as a hero, there is absolutely no right to steal even if you claim to be stealling from the rich to give to the poor. I believe that those who actually think that it is okay to steal should have their valuables stolen so that we will be able to know if they are going to stick to that same notion.

If someone steals from you, is it ethical to steal the money back?

Of course one 'should' go to the cops or court system, but what if the rich people who stole from you own the cops and the court system and it would be pointless (and possibly dangerous) to seek relief from them?

I suppose that one could argue that the peeps should 'vote harder' if they live in a democracy, but what if the rich people own the political system and will not allow any changes?  Revolution?  That would be absolutely dangerous, and likely to result in an even worse situation vis-a-vis theft.

These are not actually theoretical problems that people face.  In fact they are probably more common than not.  The most practical thing to do is to sit there and suck it, and that's exactly what most people do.  Those who do 'steal it back' seem to tend to get side-tracked and steal from those who didn't steal from them in the first place because they are more practical targets.

[poptok1]

You guys are talking about various cases and examples from around the world, yet nobody is proposing any real solution.
I'm not saying that barb wire around your place or small arsenal in the basement, are not the way to go, cause there's sometimes no actual choice. However those are just deterrents, those are not the solution to the problem in the long term.
Separating yourself from others, with a giant fence will only fuel up the hatred and envy, not to mention unhealthy arouse of interest in your possessions.

The real danger is that the criminals are every bit as stupid.  You cannot count on one of them recognizing that doing a real crime against you will result in their own certain death or imprisonment.

You nailed it. I say it's about education. Folks need to be raised with the awareness of consequences. I'm not about personal after effects of stealing. They need to be though about general picture. No chance for them to ever develop in to stable and wealthy society if they continue to support parasitic lifestyle. No convoluted economy lessons are necessary, no big words or even religious mysticism. All what's needed, in my opinion is the exposure to to the ethics of the ancient world. The Greeks, like Aisōpos (Aesop) and his wonderfully simple fairy tales or rather fables, Aristotle and his Nicomachean Ethics and all the other Natural philosophers.

And what about usury?

[tvbcof]

You guys are talking about various cases and examples from around the world, yet nobody is proposing any real solution. ...

I'm unconvinced that there is a problem here.  Perhaps Gunnery Sargent Hartmann has a perfectly good solution supposed problem: https://youtu.be/5NP8y63Ms4o?t=40

  Hartmann: Private Pyle, if there is one thing in this world that I hate it is an unlocked footlocker.  You know that don't you?

  Pyle:  Sir, yes sir!

  Hartmann:  If it wasn't for dickheads like you there wouldn't be any thievery in this world would there?

Could it be that all we are doing in striving for a utopia where everyone is honest and no-one takes advantage of another is creating simpleton sheep who are easier for the powers that be to shear?

Would we have a 'stronger' society if we accepted as normal that people are by nature somewhat exploitative and almost always seeking advantage?  Such behavior is probably hard-wired in as a survival mechanism and trying to 'solve' it is a Sisyphean task which carries a very real risk of horrific unintended blow-back.

Could some of the problems that my country (the United States) faces right now are in part somewhat illustrative of such blow-back?