Has anyone used a ZenGo Wallet?

[Hal9900]

A few weeks ago I heard a podcast with Anthony Pompliano and the founder of ZenGo, which uses ZoOm, a facial recognition security app to secure Bitcoin. I’ve had a couple of discussions with Ouriel Ohayon from ZenGo about the benefits of ZenGo over Ledger. In comparison, Ledger already seems antiquated but has ZenGo been vetted enough to trust that ZenGo is secure? Since ZenGo uses ZoOm I can see how one party would blame the other party if hacking were to occur. I am not a security expert. What do you all think of ZenGo?

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[o_e_l_e_o]

There's a discussion about using biometrics to secure your wallet here: Biometric BTC wallet?
The TL;DR is that it is generally a bad idea as it is far more easily broken than a strong password or passphrase.

In terms of the ZenGo itself, I've not heard of it before, but I've had a quick poke around their website. There are a couple of things which give me some concern.

Firstly is that they extensively use cloud servers for back up. Both the client share on your phone, and their server share which they store, are backed up to the cloud. You don't need me to tell you how poor cloud security generally is - you can do a simple web search and see story after story of cloud servers being hacked.

Secondly is their recovery mechanism. If they go out of business, then they have an escrow who will release a master decryption key so all users can still access their private keys and therefore their coins. That's great, but it means there exists a single point of failure for their entire system - the master decryption key. This has been created and transferred to an escrow. We have no idea how many copies of it exist, how many computer systems it has been on, how many people have had access to it, or how good the security currently protecting it is. It's a massive vector of attack, as if someone gains access to it, they can potentially gain access to every coin held by every owner of one of these devices (and as we said above, with all the back ups being stored on the cloud, this is a real concern).

[Hal9900]

@o_e_l_e_o

Thank you for your input. Wow, I am glad I did not move my coins to ZenGo yet. I am not technologically minded so I need to rely on you experts here. I don't feel comfortable leaving my Bitcoin on Coinbase and using a Ledger with a 24 word seed phrase just seems antiquated, like I said before. Is this really state-of-the-art? Also, like I said before ZenGo uses ZoOm facial recognition. I am not sure that ZoOm is equivalent to the biometrics in your link. Can you check out the white papers on ZoOm and let me know what you think?

https://www.zoomlogin.com/#page-blk-white-papers

[Pmalek]

@o_e_l_e_o

I don't feel comfortable leaving my Bitcoin on Coinbase and using a Ledger with a 24 word seed phrase just seems antiquated, like I said before. Is this really state-of-the-art?

You shouldn't leave your funds on any exchange. That is one of the oldest rules. Your crypto should only be stored in wallets where its private keys are in your possession. They should be on exchanges only when you are trading.

Antiquated or not they work! Hardware wallets and paper wallets are the two safest ways to store crypto currencies. And the safety of your funds should be your priority and nothing else.

[o_e_l_e_o]

using a Ledger with a 24 word seed phrase just seems antiquated, like I said before. Is this really state-of-the-art?

It might not be state-of-the-art, but it is tried and tested, and known to be safe and secure.

The 24 word seed phrase is only used as a back up. Provided your Ledger device is never lost/damaged/stolen/etc., then you never actually need to use your 24 word phrase. You just need to know you have it in case of disaster. And it is much safer for your back up to have never touched an electronic device and be stored solely on paper.

The latest Ledger device works on computers and on mobiles via cable or Bluetooth. It supports hundreds of coins and multiple wallets via passphrases, and most importantly, it wipes itself if you enter the PIN wrong 3 times (which is when your 24 word phrase is needed to restore). I assume the facial recognition wallet does not have such a feature, and would let an attacker have endless attempt to bypass its security. The Ledger does everything that is needed to fully control your coins whilst also keeping them safe at the same time. It might not be as "fancy" facial recognition, but honestly, that's a good thing.

As Pmalek says, you should absolutely not be leaving your coins on any exchange. If your coins are on an exchange, then you don't own them - the exchange does, and there are hundreds of stories of exchanges disappearing, locking accounts for arbitrary reasons, or being hacked.

[Pmalek]

The latest Ledger device works on computers and on mobiles via cable or Bluetooth.

I know the Nano X has a bluetooth feature but I am not a big fan of that due to an additional possible mode of attack.
I am sure the Ledger team has tested different ways to somehow misuse the bluetooth and found it to be safe but we also know how capable and persistent hackers can be to get what they want.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I know the Nano X has a bluetooth feature but I am not a big fan of that due to an additional possible mode of attack.

It is no less secure than plugging your device in with a cable to a compromised computer. The Bluetooth set up is designed on the assumption that it is always compromised.

To pair your phone with your Ledger device obvious requires use approval. Once paired, all communication is AES encrypted to prevent a man in the middle attack. As always, your private keys never leave the secure element, and so can't be extracted. As with plugging your device in to a compromised computer, if you were to pair with a compromised phone via bluetooth, the worst that could happen would be some clipboard malware tries to generate a false transaction. As long as you double check what shows up on your Ledger screen, you are perfectly safe.

You can read more here: https://www.ledger.com/ledger-nano-x-bluetooth-security-model-of-a-wireless-hardware-wallet/

[Hal9900]

ZenGo claims that all protocols and safety measures have been tested. Their white papers show it but, of course, the actual code is a different story altogether. I am not defending ZenGo. I am drawn to their ease of use and if crypto is to become more widely adopted there has to be a better way of storing and recovering crypto. Is there anyone here who is willing to take ZenGo for a test drive? I have the app on my phone but I am trepidatious. I know nothing about security. In the meantime it looks like I will have to store my coins on a Ledger.

[Pmalek]

Is there anyone here who is willing to take ZenGo for a test drive? I have the app on my phone but I am trepidatious. I know nothing about security. In the meantime it looks like I will have to store my coins on a Ledger.

Why do you need to poke the bear and experiment with other options that might compromise your funds and their safety?
If something already exists that is widely used and is safe I would just stick to that. I have nothing against ZenGo but I am not interested in trying it out. 

[Hal9900]

Is there anyone here who is willing to take ZenGo for a test drive? I have the app on my phone but I am trepidatious. I know nothing about security. In the meantime it looks like I will have to store my coins on a Ledger.

Why do you need to poke the bear and experiment with other options that might compromise your funds and their safety?
If something already exists that is widely used and is safe I would just stick to that. I have nothing against ZenGo but I am not interested in trying it out. 

I don’t want to poke the bear but I think ZenGo has the potential to be revolutionary. If we all want mass adoption of Bitcoin there will have to be a better way to secure Bitcoin other than seed phrases. If some security expert could take ZenGo through its paces, perhaps examine its code, maybe it will be a way forward. We need everyone and their grandma to own Bitcoin. We need to make this process as easy as possible.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If we all want mass adoption of Bitcoin there will have to be a better way to secure Bitcoin other than seed phrases.

Why? What's wrong with seed phrases? Everyone is familiar with the concept of a password which you need to keep safe, and if someone else has your password, they can access all your accounts. Seed phrases are not really that different. They are far more secure than either facial recognition or backing up your wallets to the cloud.

We need everyone and their grandma to own Bitcoin. We need to make this process as easy as possible.

Agreed, but I don't think this wallet is the way to go. I think it is far easier to tell a grandma "Write this down and keep it very safe" than it is to explain how to set up and use facial recognition, particularly to restore from cloud back ups.

I'm not sure why you are so keen on using biometrics when they have repeatedly been shown to be poorly secured and far more easily hacked than passwords/passphrases. I also still have serious concerns about their "master decryption key" which can unlock everybody's wallets.