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Author Topic: Staff Dabs abusing merit?  (Read 2055 times)
mikeywith
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October 06, 2019, 03:21:42 AM
Merited by wwzsocki (1), lovesmayfamilis (1)
 #41

the merit page: "There is no point in hoarding sMerit; keeping it yourself does not benefit you".

It should also mention that there is no point in meriting shitposts such as

I got my tokens, but I'm not sure if I've received the Incent bonus.

I have no problem with how members like to spend their merit, but if we start to think that all of this is an "okay" way of dealing with merit, we get to the point where we all think the whole merit system is completely useless.

If you check the OP's posts and compare it to MichaelX's it actually makes more sense that OP "should" have earned more merit , I know the merit system isn't exactly perfect and things don't work that way, I have probably gotten more merit that I thought I would get in 5 years , so it's kind of irrelevant to me at this point, and I am sure it's the same to many others, but to Newbies it makes a lot of difference, someone who posts some quality posts and don't get half the merit MichaelX "or anybody else for that matter" get ,might be discouraged and leave the forum for good.

it's not about the 18 merit Dabs sent, it's the whole future of the forum overall content quality, we either take the merit system a little more seriously, or watch it slowly fall.
 

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October 06, 2019, 06:17:48 AM
Merited by Dabs (1)
 #42

I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

That's how any merit abuse should be judged. But then again when the very people that are admins and/or in DT and/or are merit sources can be shown to hand out merit for "likes", especially when it comes to forum "fights", it sort of makes it all a moot point. No one cares what Theymos wanted it to be and shows a complete lack of respect for his goals with it.

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October 06, 2019, 07:23:19 AM
Merited by Dabs (1), vapourminer (1)
 #43

I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

That's how any merit abuse should be judged. But then again when the very people that are admins and/or in DT and/or are merit sources can be shown to hand out merit for "likes", especially when it comes to forum "fights", it sort of makes it all a moot point. No one cares what Theymos wanted it to be and shows a complete lack of respect for his goals with it.

Also put into consideration, we're all (or mostly) humans here so sometimes our emotions can overshadow our decision making. True sometimes those you mention above do this things but since it's not a regular occurrence (like in the case of the OP), you just have to let it go. Remember theymos encouraged, he didn't mandate so it left in the hands of the meriters. No system is flawless.

If the intentions of the meriter is clearly to abuse the system (which could be identified by large amounts of merits) and the attention of theymos is called towards such scenario, the merit will reversed just as he has previously done. For minor case, lets not make it a big deal as there are other matters we should be focusing our attention on.

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October 06, 2019, 07:26:06 AM
Merited by Dabs (1)
 #44

In fact are staff members allowed to ask members for money via pm?
No. See the Unofficial rules:
29. Sending unsolicited PMs, including but not limited to advertising and flood, is not allowed.

It would be very difficult to say no for fear of retaliation from staff.
You're wrong here. It would be very easy to click "Report To Admin". This isn't difficult for the innocent user, but very risky for the Staff member. I haven't seen any cases where this actually happened.

Quote
Does an honest legend fear being asked for coins from staff?   Plenty  are on the thread what would you do?
No, I have no reason to fear Staff.

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October 06, 2019, 07:33:22 AM
Merited by Dabs (1)
 #45



If a staff member such as Dabs sent a pm to anyone asking for money and then rewarded merits to  the people that gave him money it would be an abuse.
In fact are staff members allowed to ask members for money via pm?
It would be very difficult to say no for fear of retaliation from staff.

I've asked personal friends for coins. Some said yes. Some said no. Got nothing to do with the forum although I understand you feel it may.

You should really stop doing that. You sent me the same PM because I donate to a charity years ago. I don't know you and out of the blue you asked me for money, making me think that your account was compromised. I think it's really inappropriate for a staff member to send (unsolicited) begging for money.

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October 06, 2019, 02:24:20 PM
Last edit: October 06, 2019, 02:39:21 PM by philipma1957
Merited by Dabs (1), vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1), JSRAW (1)
 #46



If a staff member such as Dabs sent a pm to anyone asking for money and then rewarded merits to  the people that gave him money it would be an abuse.
In fact are staff members allowed to ask members for money via pm?
It would be very difficult to say no for fear of retaliation from staff.

I've asked personal friends for coins. Some said yes. Some said no. Got nothing to do with the forum although I understand you feel it may.

You should really stop doing that. You sent me the same PM because I donate to a charity years ago. I don't know you and out of the blue you asked me for money, making me think that your account was compromised. I think it's really inappropriate for a staff member to send (unsolicited) begging for money.

I was asked for money and I don't know Dabs so it could be op is connecting some dots.
I told Dabs I would like a btc addy to send to. I then spent a few hours for a few days reading his posts. I decided to not send coin.
I think Dabs should not ask me or anyone else such as thenewanon135246 for coin via pm.
I think no staff admin mod or even theymos should ask for coin via pm.

By this I mean rule 29 as stated by LoyceV

I am not looking to report staff, admin, mod or theymos for breaking rules simply because I do fear retaliation.  Why do I fear retaliation I was fully doxxed this year on  the following website.

https://badbuyerlist.org/

The reason was a lie , but the name and phone number are accurate.
So I have already suffered retaliation and since 95% of my internet footprint is this site most likely someone from here did this to me.
So now that staff starts asking me for money does it mean I show up on that list with more falsehoods spoken if I say no to sending coin?

I realize most likely that a scammer on marketplace tagged me and that Dabs asking for money is just that he is broke and desperate for money.

Now it looks like he asked at least 2 legends that don't know him.  I would have left this all alone until I saw this thread.

By asking me a person that is suffering from a doxxing already it caused me a lot of grief.

So now I fear a new dox lie getting reported on badbuyerlist.org   because I posted here in this thread.  

My thoughts are Dabs has nothing to do with the dox, but that someone on this site (most likely a marketplace scammer) did the false dox.


It is simply not a good idea for staff to ask for money via pm. As it can put the person asked for the money in a funny state of mind. Which is where I am at right now.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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October 06, 2019, 02:54:30 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), be.open (1)
 #47

I've asked personal friends for coins. Some said yes. Some said no. Got nothing to do with the forum although I understand you feel it may.
You should really stop doing that. You sent me the same PM because I donate to a charity years ago. I don't know you and out of the blue you asked me for money, making me think that your account was compromised. I think it's really inappropriate for a staff member to send (unsolicited) begging for money.
I was asked for money and I don't know Dabs so it could be op is connecting some dots.
I just connected some dots:
Dabs is the #1 Trust Selfscratcher. His "natural" Trust score is +7 / =0 / -0, but when he's on DT1 his Trust score is +42 / =0 / -0. This means he has bumped 35 accounts that left him positive feedback up to DT2. That on it's own is questionable and certainly not the correct use of DT1-powers, but as long Admin includes this Staff member on his Trust list, I see no reason to exclude him:
Quote
Trust list for: Dabs (Trust: +43 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (2) 215 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP) (created 2019-10-05_Sat_17.00h)
Back to index

Dabs's judgement is Trusted by:
1. theymos (Trust: +28 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (62) 5281 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

Source: LoyceV's Trust list viewer.
Get your own Trust list in BBCode at loyce.club/trust.

However, the combination of inflating his own Trust score from +7 to +42, and at the same time asking for money, makes it look much worse.

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October 06, 2019, 03:15:44 PM
Merited by Dabs (1), vapourminer (1)
 #48

I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

That's how any merit abuse should be judged. But then again when the very people that are admins and/or in DT and/or are merit sources can be shown to hand out merit for "likes", especially when it comes to forum "fights", it sort of makes it all a moot point. No one cares what Theymos wanted it to be and shows a complete lack of respect for his goals with it.
Judging posts that have received merit on criteria set out by a member/admin is not going to work because merit awarding is largely subjective which means what I think deserves merit you might not. Moderating that from a DefaultTrust point of view is almost impossible and would create large divides between the community. This is the reason why the merit system is at your discretion.
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October 07, 2019, 12:20:15 AM
Last edit: October 07, 2019, 12:40:25 AM by The-One-Above-All
Merited by Dabs (1), pandukelana2712 (1)
 #49

Best to keep to topic since it seems to be becoming a bit of a witch hunt and verging on some double standards.

We do not think dabs is perhaps the best selection for merit source nor perhaps staff. However, from the evidence presented in the thread there seems to be some glaring issues with singling him out for some kind of punishment.

1. those posts are pretty low value in our opinion BUT they are not as low value or as net negative as many posts that receive merit on meta board. Therefore the abuse there seems to fall short of any required action if we are not going to act against most merit sources.

2. his asking for bitcoins seems completely out of character to what you would expect from staff here, HOWEVER at least this is just some honest if distasteful approach to gaining some extra bitcoins or bitcoin dust. This does not seem as bad to us members and staff gaming the systems of control to ensure they have unfair advantage over other members with regards the rev streams here.

What is more strange is that dabs seems to see nothing wrong with it and mentions leaving him some bitcoins even in this thread. Just seems like a person that thinks it is fine to openly ask people for money even those he does not know or have any connection with. That is kind of weird but in some cultures they do this. I guess it is at least open and honest if there is no kind of threat or punishment for not sending btc to him.

At the end of the day. I would rather members just ask others outright " hey I'm broke can you give me some bitcoin dust" than I would see the systematic gaming and manipulation of merit/trust to ensure unfair advantage of the available rev streams here. Most of that gaming and manipulation is conducted by people frequenting meta board.

Better that nobody asks others for money or games the systems of control for unfair access to money. However that is likely asking too much. The asking for money is at least fair and open and honest.

Do we honestly believe dabs is the only person giving merits to low value shit posts?

It is quite fucking  simple. Whilst merit has huge financial incentive to abuse (in terms of not really giving it to objectively high value posts) and it is wide open to abuse to the point where abuse is impossible to prove  THEN GUESS WHAT WILL KEEP FUCKING HAPPENING?Huh....answers on a postcard to....

Imagine we have one of these threads every time we locate merits going to people for low value garbage.....haha

Let's fix that.

What is even more funny in a way. Is the post saying:  Well, we can not introduce any kind of criteria or definitive guide for allocating merit, because it is all so subjective.  

Well, that is kind of the point, if you drill it down hard enough and only allow merit sources that have the capacity to measure all output against those requirements then you will REDUCE the subjectivity to a huge degree. Reduce the subjectivity reduce the room to abuse. You are correct about one thing that DT can not moderate it since merit=DT

Dabs may be abusing merit , but he is not abusing any more than most of the merit sources here.  End of story.

I mean even if you could prove a perfect correlation between those that sent him bitcoin dust and merits he gave out, he can still say well I just thought they were good posts and there is nothing you can say about it.
Honestly, we favor merit sources selling merit to those that can not get it, above cycling to their fav 20 pals who cycle it back to them.  At least the collusion and control of systems of control will be more decentralized. Can you sell in blocks of 250 so we can get some kind of real decentralization going on DT and also force theymos to realize the merit metric for DT is totally retarded.

I mean both selling and cycling are wrong and have no connection to real merit. Still if we have to choose one....

Just dump merit theymos it was broken from day one.  Noob jail being removed was probably the worst move ever (apart from introducing merit)

Of course if it is found that he crosses the threshold of merit abuse or any other abuse then it is down to theymos to decide. However far better to tackle this at a design level or it will open the flood gates if you want to hold to the same standards.



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October 07, 2019, 02:27:39 AM
 #50

I'm sorry for giving you all, and anyone else merits, and I can't take it back. (I tried to see if the post was considered high quality, almost everything here is.)

No one sent me dust.

It was a short lapse in judgement, and I hope the people I bothered can forgive me. Most of my life, I don't intentionally break any rules. Comes with the training and conditioning I guess.

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October 07, 2019, 05:39:57 AM
 #51

I'm sorry for giving you all, and anyone else merits, and I can't take it back. (I tried to see if the post was considered high quality, almost everything here is.)

No one sent me dust.

It was a short lapse in judgement, and I hope the people I bothered can forgive me. Most of my life, I don't intentionally break any rules. Comes with the training and conditioning I guess.
what is your position here? Staff? Is that true? it feels ridiculous if you are a staff member and don't know such rules, you should not be a staff member, the knowledge of bitcointalk rules is better known by the members than the staff, it's really a shameful irony, hopefully not many people know that there are staff like this.
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October 07, 2019, 07:06:23 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #52

I've asked personal friends for coins. Some said yes. Some said no. Got nothing to do with the forum although I understand you feel it may.
You should really stop doing that. You sent me the same PM because I donate to a charity years ago. I don't know you and out of the blue you asked me for money, making me think that your account was compromised. I think it's really inappropriate for a staff member to send (unsolicited) begging for money.
I was asked for money and I don't know Dabs so it could be op is connecting some dots.
I just connected some dots:
Dabs is the #1 Trust Selfscratcher. His "natural" Trust score is +7 / =0 / -0, but when he's on DT1 his Trust score is +42 / =0 / -0. This means he has bumped 35 accounts that left him positive feedback up to DT2. That on it's own is questionable and certainly not the correct use of DT1-powers, but as long Admin includes this Staff member on his Trust list, I see no reason to exclude him:
Quote
Trust list for: Dabs (Trust: +43 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (2) 215 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP) (created 2019-10-05_Sat_17.00h)
Back to index

Dabs's judgement is Trusted by:
1. theymos (Trust: +28 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (62) 5281 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

Source: LoyceV's Trust list viewer.
Get your own Trust list in BBCode at loyce.club/trust.

However, the combination of inflating his own Trust score from +7 to +42, and at the same time asking for money, makes it look much worse.

You want to say that all these cases of abuse are okay, because Theymos has included Dabs in his trust list?  I hope you understand that this can completely discredit the entire trust system existing on the forum, if the Staff will allow itself such actions, while remaining unpunished?

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October 07, 2019, 09:59:42 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #53

All this new evidence just goes to show nobody is perfect here. Some staff especially local board moderators aren't that informed about the general rules as we think. Most of them were made moderators just to keep their local boards in order to some extent. The messages you guys speak off, what was the vibe behind the PMs, was it some extortion, system abuse (get merit/trust for your money), bribe attempt or just a regular forum user begging for money to bypass some hard times. If the PM weren't harmful per se but there's a punishment for such actions I won't oppose the right punishment been given.

For the trust aspect, the message about how the trust system should be used isn't that clear to some individuals. Many users are still misunderstanding the concept. Have anyone tried correcting him and he refused to take the corrections? If no then lets not come to a conclusion yet until he get corrected and refuse to take corrections. Although still not a fan of the manipulation ongoing at the local board level😁.

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October 08, 2019, 03:36:56 AM
 #54

Some staff especially local board moderators aren't that informed about the general rules as we think.
Do you mean someone specific, or just unfoundedly cast a shadow over all local staffs, claiming that they do not know the rules of the forum? Or should your words be understood as "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi"? Smiley

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October 08, 2019, 05:49:30 AM
 #55

The messages you guys speak off, what was the vibe behind the PMs, was it some extortion, system abuse (get merit/trust for your money), bribe attempt or just a regular forum user begging for money to bypass some hard times. If the PM weren't harmful per se but there's a punishment for such actions I won't oppose the right punishment been given.
I think this is the most important part of the "gist". As I would love to know if sending private messages to beg for money, without any intention to scam or extort the user is against the rules. I know begging in general is likely not acceptable on the forum, most especially when it's to cajole the other user probably because of your position or probably because you want to scam the user, or exchange the money for merits etc.

I do not think dabs has done too much wrong here, though clarifications is needed in this case, is any random begging for money against the rules? If i pm'd any random user asking them for money for X or Y reasons and I get reported, what punishment would I face?
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October 08, 2019, 08:47:39 AM
 #56

Some staff especially local board moderators aren't that informed about the general rules as we think.
Do you mean someone specific, or just unfoundedly cast a shadow over all local staffs, claiming that they do not know the rules of the forum? Or should your words be understood as "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi"? Smiley

I'm presuming you get appointed to be a local board staff due to the need of someone to keep an eye on that area and probably because of your activities on that board. I have seen lower ranked users been appointed staff (which technically means) they're less experience when it come to the activities of the forum in general but might have the experience on their local board to qualified them for such position or the forum just need someone to monitor that area.

All I'm trying to say is, they shouldn't be judged as some mini god with the mindset, they should be immune to mistakes just because they're wearing a tagged on their profile. They're humans and bond to make mistakes so unless they're abusing those special privileges they should been judged as regular forum users.

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October 08, 2019, 09:23:12 AM
Last edit: October 08, 2019, 09:46:56 AM by Sancho18
 #57

Some staff especially local board moderators aren't that informed about the general rules as we think.
Do you mean someone specific, or just unfoundedly cast a shadow over all local staffs, claiming that they do not know the rules of the forum? Or should your words be understood as "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi"? Smiley

I'm presuming you get appointed to be a local board staff due to the need of someone to keep an eye on that area and probably because of your activities on that board. I have seen lower ranked users been appointed staff (which technically means) they're less experience when it come to the activities of the forum in general but might have the experience on their local board to qualified them for such position or the forum just need someone to monitor that area.

All I'm trying to say is, they shouldn't be judged as some mini god with the mindset, they should be immune to mistakes just because they're wearing a tagged on their profile. They're humans and bond to make mistakes so unless they're abusing those special privileges they should been judged as regular forum users.
Your presumption is not true and I have no relation to the local staff. However, I can not only write, but also read, and I read the rules of the forum and do not find anything super complicated in them to justify their ignorance even by ordinary members of the forum, especially staff. Moreover, in my opinion, staff should adhere to the forum rules more carefully and staff errors are less excusable, because their consequences can be more dramatic for the normal functioning of the system.

In other words, not "quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi", but "quod licet bovi, non licet Iovi".

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October 08, 2019, 10:40:45 AM
 #58

You guys diverting the topic on another way. No one bothered to open thread about begging coin or DT1 manipulations. You should open another thread regarding another issue. But this thread should serve as merit abuse.

Since Dabs already said sorry about merit distribution so we might stop now, because merit transaction was not very big amount. I am hopping that Dabs already understood how he should deal with his merit.

But I noticed most of people's just pumping Dabs and said "Dabs did nothing wrong". This is the total wrong sentence. Why should you guys worry to say true, why not try to drive him on right direction? If you say he was right then he will continue meriting on spam post.

For me, still I believe Dabs did wrong about his merit distribution and he should change his mind during merit distribution. But he doesn't deserve any punishment for just for small merit transaction. Nothing more to say since Dabs already said sorry, I believe he realised his mistakes.

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October 08, 2019, 01:16:42 PM
 #59

You guys diverting the topic on another way. No one bothered to open thread about begging coin or DT1 manipulations. You should open another thread regarding another issue. But this thread should serve as merit abuse.

Since Dabs already said sorry about merit distribution so we might stop now, because merit transaction was not very big amount. I am hopping that Dabs already understood how he should deal with his merit.

But I noticed most of people's just pumping Dabs and said "Dabs did nothing wrong". This is the total wrong sentence. Why should you guys worry to say true, why not try to drive him on right direction? If you say he was right then he will continue meriting on spam post.

For me, still I believe Dabs did wrong about his merit distribution and he should change his mind during merit distribution. But he doesn't deserve any punishment for just for small merit transaction. Nothing more to say since Dabs already said sorry, I believe he realised his mistakes.
I understand your desire to close the topic, the questions raised are pretty sensitive and delicate. People are afraid to speak, fearing persecution and revenge. I guess I'm also a little afraid, although inside myself I laugh in the face of my fear. When you pour a glass of red wine on your uniform, it’s not enough to say “Oops, I'm sorry,” the stain on the uniform will not go away by itself. But I think no one will open a new topic, each stroke in itself is not something significant, but all together they add up to the picture, and unfortunately this is not a masterpiece. Sad.

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October 08, 2019, 04:46:22 PM
Merited by Sancho18 (1)
 #60

You guys diverting the topic on another way. No one bothered to open thread about begging coin or DT1 manipulations. You should open another thread regarding another issue. But this thread should serve as merit abuse.

Since Dabs already said sorry about merit distribution so we might stop now, because merit transaction was not very big amount. I am hopping that Dabs already understood how he should deal with his merit.

But I noticed most of people's just pumping Dabs and said "Dabs did nothing wrong". This is the total wrong sentence. Why should you guys worry to say true, why not try to drive him on right direction? If you say he was right then he will continue meriting on spam post.

For me, still I believe Dabs did wrong about his merit distribution and he should change his mind during merit distribution. But he doesn't deserve any punishment for just for small merit transaction. Nothing more to say since Dabs already said sorry, I believe he realised his mistakes.
I understand your desire to close the topic, the questions raised are pretty sensitive and delicate. People are afraid to speak, fearing persecution and revenge. I guess I'm also a little afraid, although inside myself I laugh in the face of my fear. When you pour a glass of red wine on your uniform, it’s not enough to say “Oops, I'm sorry,” the stain on the uniform will not go away by itself. But I think no one will open a new topic, each stroke in itself is not something significant, but all together they add up to the picture, and unfortunately this is not a masterpiece. Sad.

I am not sure regarding how related the topic of asking people for money and accusations of abusing merits, because we are not likely going to hear about all of the stories of approaches in a public thread like this.  

Surely higher ranking members are going to feel more comfortable than newer members to share some details, but really there can be a lot of reservations, and it is not merely about retaliation, but NOT knowing about patterns of behavior or even how egregious is the conduct - which other members do have a right to defend such conduct if they believe it to be acceptable - which seems like a bold stance.  Surely, Dabs has already acknowledged that he contacts "friends" for money, and what is a "friend" exactly on the interwebs?

There are also going to be various reactions when one member asks another for money, and if the member is highly regarded in the forum, with various titles and various kinds of recognition, that is going to cause credibility impressions... which could also be connected with how merits are being spent, which relates back to the more narrow OP assertions.

Furthermore, theymos has both put Dabs on his trust list and has also appointed dabs as staff, which causes additional credibility towards the asking of money - depending on how the asking is done, how often it is done, and which members are being approached.  This related topic has come up in this thread has been fairly clearly shown to have some connections with the OP, yet maybe the subject matter of the thread needs to be tweaked in order to be able to air the possible problematic nature of what seems to be going on and what is being discussed, which may not be resolved by a mere "I am sorry", even if "I am sorry" (if it even sufficiently happened?) could be a step in the right direction.

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