a society question about vegans

[franky1]

I think the best solution in a post-carnivore world is to just cull domestic animals and keep some remaining in zoos

so in a post farming society (farming to cage and kill animals) you propose a culling and zoo society(caging and killing animals)

the only difference i see is the bi product of the culling is just carcusses left to rot. more human starvation due to the remaining wild animals eating all the fruit and veg meant for humans while offering no meat protein into a diet

oh and if you suggest neutering animals and incinerating carcusses. how many racoons, rats, birds, flies, possums, dingos, coyotes have you seen avoiding cities, how many get neutered. and how much polution is produced by burning a mass culling of wild herds

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[styca]

I'm vegan, and have been for about 10 years. I don't think we should torture and kill animals, but I'm not a raving zealot about it. I generally try not to mention I'm vegan as I know a lot of people get antagonised.

The huge herds of animals we have for food - yes there would be a problem of what to do with them if they are no longer being eaten. It's a man-made problem though, we created those herds. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find a solution.

[franky1]

I'm vegan, and have been for about 10 years. I don't think we should torture and kill animals, but I'm not a raving zealot about it. I generally try not to mention I'm vegan as I know a lot of people get antagonised.

The huge herds of animals we have for food - yes there would be a problem of what to do with them if they are no longer being eaten. It's a man-made problem though, we created those herds. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find a solution.

man actually controls farm animal population
did you know there are less cows on a farm than there are mice on a farm.
man controls the cows but not the mice

im not into 'torture' but the facts are animals do die. and just letting animals reproduce by not separating the genders will cause over population.
its why bulls are separated from cows and artificially inseminated.. its why roosters are kept from chickens

though an example im about to mention is a bit of a childish illustration of simplifying it down. but the lion king is a most basic demonstration of the result of a civilation with no code/rule where everything goes back to survival of the fittest. by this i mean what happens in the period where mufasa isnt around to keep everyone responsible and everything is left to fate. it turns to wasteland

again im not into torture (killing for sport) but humane slaughter and using the bi-product of such. is better than just over population, disease epidemics, rotting carcusses and people having bad diets.

think about all the fruit and veg going to waste in a situation of no culling/no pesticide/no insecticide society. even imagine the cows who are not being hand fed in troths, but stampeding through fields eating vegetable farmers crops

imagine cows like racoons or foxes that do enter cities. but instead of just a 20lb animal its a 500lb animal running around

[styca]

We have bred these massive herds. If demand for animal products decreases we breed fewer of them and their population drops. The argument for thousands of cows rampaging through city streets only applies if everyone instantly goes vegan at the same time. In practice demand tails off more gradually.

[styca]

Actually, a lot of the vegans would love to force others to be vegans.

Quantify 'a lot'. Come on, that's a lazy generalisation. Some vegans want that. I don't want that.
Some men are rapists, doesn't mean a lot or most or all.

[Spendulus]

First of all, I'm not vegan. I think there's just a small number of them compared to us who normally eat meat but I understand why they want to do it. They're not forcing anyone to be vegan ....

Actually, a lot of the vegans would love to force others to be vegans.

I don't say that they are right or wrong to try to force other people.

But, don't we have some people trying to forbid  the Chinese to eat dogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lychee_and_Dog_Meat_Festival)

or the Dane (Denmark) to kill Dolphins (https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/annual-ritual-sees-hundreds-of-whales-slaughtered-in-denmark-pictures-spark-outrage-2170285.html)

Or the Japaneese to hunt Whales for "fake" research purpose.

Or poacher to kill elephants and Rhino for Ivory.

Why are we trying to restrain them in doing what they like to do / have been doing for many generation.

Is our moral ground higher than theirs ?


Who decide which animal is worth protecting ? worth eating ?
We shouldn't kill and eat elephants, but chickens are free for all ?


The Veganism questions is not just a black or white question.
there are many shade of grey.

I think those are all good questions and valid comparables. By looking at these all together creates a frame of reference for all killing of other animals.

But I still like the idea of Vegans having to carry the animals they saved around.

And don't forget delicious Bacon. A lot of cults would tell us we shouldn't eat pigs.

[darkangel11]

I always thought that vegetarians are all about not hurting the animals and not eating meat. Vegans are people who don't eat anything produced by animals. They're a vegetarian extremists.

I understand vegetarians, but don't get vegans. I don't understand how taking an egg from a chicken who lays one almost every day hurts it. You're not killing anything, you're taking a byproduct. A very healthy byproduct. Are you going to say that taking honey from the bees and putting in sugar hurts them?

Vegans and vegetarians are cocky because  they can go to a store and buy soy this soy that, a couple exotic fruits and a fresh bread and they're set for a day.
I'd like to see them left in the woods for a couple days where there's a lot of rabbits and birds but no beans or corn growing around. Would they look for a nest and have some tasty scrambled eggs for dinner or chew bark and drink water.

[styca]

I don't understand how taking an egg from a chicken who lays one almost every day hurts it. You're not killing anything, you're taking a byproduct.

Only female chickens lay eggs. Male chicks are killed. They are put onto conveyer belts that run into mincing machines whilst they are still alive. Have a look on YouTube if you don't believe me.

Vegans and vegetarians are cocky

I don't think I'm cocky. I don't think I am better than someone who eats meat. I've just made a different choice, that's all. If you want to eat meat and eggs then do so. What you do is your choice, I would have no right to decide for you.

[darkangel11]

I don't understand how taking an egg from a chicken who lays one almost every day hurts it. You're not killing anything, you're taking a byproduct.

Only female chickens lay eggs. Male chicks are killed. They are put onto conveyer belts that run into mincing machines whilst they are still alive. Have a look on YouTube if you don't believe me.

Why should the way chicken meat is processed stop me from eating eggs? I don't see how this is related?

Animals that are killed should be killed in a humanitarian way, with no pain. I don't think this is how it's done everywhere in the world. We shouldn't put a farmer who lets his chicken run around freely and then collects the eggs with one who keeps his birds in a crowded enclosed space, in the dark, and feeds them antibiotics.

Vegans and vegetarians are cocky

I don't think I'm cocky. I don't think I am better than someone who eats meat. I've just made a different choice, that's all. If you want to eat meat and eggs then do so. What you do is your choice, I would have no right to decide for you.

I meant the vegan movement in general not you. There are always exceptions but a large number of vegans are people who get everything served on a silver platter and choose to turn down meat because it comes down to choosing soy milk for their coffee or a veggie burger and it makes them feel special.

It's always fun to watch a debate between a vegans and hunters. What's your view on hunting?
How are you vegans going to resolve the problem of simple farmers living off the land? Should they release all their chickens and rabbits and eat corn and potatoes all year?

[styca]

Why should the way chicken meat is processed stop me from eating eggs? I don't see how this is related?

It's not the way chicken meat is processed. Baby male chicks are not killed for meat. They are not adult chickens for the meat industry, they're literally newborn chicks. The egg industry kills millions of male chicks because they have no use for them, as they will not lay eggs. Video here if you want evidence, but a serious warning before you look, it's absolutely horrific, so only watch if you're sure you want to. https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/egg-industry/baby-chicks-ground-up-alive/

Vegans and vegetarians are cocky

-snip-

I meant the vegan movement in general not you.

Thanks

It's always fun to watch a debate between a vegans and hunters. What's your view on hunting?
How are you vegans going to resolve the problem of simple farmers living off the land? Should they release all their chickens and rabbits and eat corn and potatoes all year?

Obviously I'm not a fan of hunting. There are occasionally valid arguments for culling in certain circumstances, but most are spurious.
As for farmers - it's not up to me, it's up to them. What would give me the right to demand that everyone lives in the same way that I choose to? If you're a vegan or a vegetarian or a meat-eater, you should live as you choose. Biologically we're omnivores, we've evolved to eat both meat and plants.
Similarly I am strongly against religion, but that doesn't mean I'm burning down churches and demanding that everyone becomes an atheist.

[Spendulus]

Actually, a lot of the vegans would love to force others to be vegans.

Quantify 'a lot'. Come on, that's a lazy generalisation. Some vegans want that. I don't want that.
Some men are rapists, doesn't mean a lot or most or all.

That's a fair criticism of my comment.

I actually have no clue as to the %age.

Offhand I'd think it was comparable to the gay/lezzie movements, where there are incredibly obnoxious loudmouths "speaking for the movement" and they have zero similarity to the average gay or lezzie who is a totally normal person

[PryptoMontreal]

First of all, I'm not vegan. I think there's just a small number of them compared to us who normally eat meat but I understand why they want to do it. They're not forcing anyone to be vegan so I think we shouldn't take it out on them if they don't support eating meat. For me it's mostly emotional. We can't realistically all be vegans though those of us who choose to be should be able to practice without being questioned or put in the spotlight. We have our own beliefs. There may have been previous experiences that pushed them to avoid meat. I just try to put myself in their perspective.

Also find out that those who are vegans some of them don't choose that by themselves actually their health don't allow them and they were forced to become vegan because of their health issues.
So, instead of judging anyone or commenting on anyone we should think according to there perspective s well and everyone has the right to choose what they want to be whether it is vegetarian, non vegetarian, vegan or anything.

[styca]

That's a fair criticism of my comment.

I actually have no clue as to the %age.

Offhand I'd think it was comparable to the gay/lezzie movements, where there are incredibly obnoxious loudmouths "speaking for the movement" and they have zero similarity to the average gay or lezzie who is a totally normal person

Thanks. I'm meriting that because it is so refreshing to see someone concede a point on here!

Speaking from the vegan side, yes, I concede that there are some vegans who are obnoxious dicks, just as there are some non-vegans who are obnoxious dicks. I think the gay/lesbian analogy is a good one. Generally if you have any label that defines a group and represents a difference from the norm, it attracts idiot attention-seekers wanting to be flag bearers.

[franky1]

We have bred these massive herds. If demand for animal products decreases we breed fewer of them and their population drops. The argument for thousands of cows rampaging through city streets only applies if everyone instantly goes vegan at the same time. In practice demand tails off more gradually.

lol
no.. just no

man inseminates cows at a predictive and controlled rate and slaughters them at a predictive rate
EG cows only live a couple years for meat but can live decades wild
in the wild they can continuously get pregnant and give offspring at an uncontroled rate.
again the bull is not being kept away meaning the bull naturally inseminating a cow like a f-boy does at a nightclub

again without control things go out of control.
i can understand your peace and harmony desires. but the reality is the opposite
also knowing the predator-prey lifecycle and hierarchy a cow doesnt have much prediators however rats do. yet rats in cities are a problem

but its not just cows. imagine sheep, pigs chickens. suddenly its a multispeciies population growth doubling ever couple years not every 20 years(humans average generations every 20 years)

just imagine cows doing what humans do, but every every year instead of 20 years.
oh and before you say les cows than people
cows dont know birth control and dont have the fingers to put a condom on...

think of the reality not the utopia

[guigui371]

It's always fun to watch a debate between a vegans and hunters. What's your view on hunting?

What is your opinion ?
Are all animal free for hunting ?

Should we hunt grizzly bear in alaska ? what about polar bear ? and Alpacas ?
What about elephants, Lion ? panthere ? those are animals, and like wild pigs, or ducks, they don't "belong" to anyone.

Should we only hunt with bow and arrow (like our ancestors) or with a sniper ?
I live in NZ  (but i am french).
Here (nz) people are shooting with a sniper gun (like legit, they shoot animal - Deer- on a hill at 300 - 400m). Sometimes even at night with infrared lenses. But, hey it is "sport".

Back  home(France), people mainly go to forest, and use a 2 cartridge shotgun, if you are further away than 20m you will miss, and the animal can hide in bushes or behind trees and stuff.

Is one type of hunting better than the other ?


I'll put again what I previously wrote :

But, don't we have some people (including hunters, maybe)  trying to forbid  the Chinese to eat dogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lychee_and_Dog_Meat_Festival)

or the Dane (Denmark) to kill Dolphins (https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/annual-ritual-sees-hundreds-of-whales-slaughtered-in-denmark-pictures-spark-outrage-2170285.html)

Or the Japaneese to hunt Whales for "fake" research purpose.

Or poacher to kill elephants and Rhino for Ivory.

Why are we trying to restrain them in doing what they like to do / have been doing for many generation.

Is our moral ground higher than theirs ?


Who decide which animal is worth protecting ? worth eating ?
We shouldn't kill and eat elephants/dolphins/tigers, but chickens are free for all ?

Also one more point,
Let's imagine you buy a plot of land in  some random forest.
Technically you can fence it off, and go on a rampage and kill all the rabbits and deer and other animals on it.
Animal lives have no value for the council/government/people.

However, if you want to cut every single tree, and make a huge concrete pad in lieu of the forest, then the government will tell you that the trees can't be cut, that you have to protect the environment, that it will become an eye-sore ...

[Spendulus]

....
just imagine cows doing what humans do, but every every year instead of 20 years.
oh and before you say les cows than people
cows dont know birth control and dont have the fingers to put a condom on...

think of the reality not the utopia

How about we eat them to extinction?

[iluvbitcoins]

The damage would be tremendous.
Domestic animals without natural predators would breed extremely fast and fill entire villages&cities with their population.
Not mentioning they would live in pain, since cows for example require milking otherwise they will experience great pain and vegans do not drink dairy products.
We'd be overrun by pigs,sheep and most likely rabbits because of their capacity to breed fast if they could find enough food in urban enviroments.
The biggest populations would probably stick to the countryside but there would be plenty roaming urban centers.

This fortunately will never happen because people like meat.

Ugh.....

Maybe just let the hunters go wild? Let them roam and allow the hunters to shoot.

They wouldn't be able to sustain their population growth even if this was the case, as their wouldn't be enough food for them and humans wouldn't allow them to take their food. That would cause death of the aniamls.

The damage would be annoying, and animal activists groups would be pissed, but it'd be fine.... God I don't know why everyone goes DOOMSDAY on everything these days.

The point of a vegan society is not to harm animals, so I don't think hunters would be allowed to hunt the population in such a bizarre world  
I'm unsure what vegans think about nootering animals? I assume it's okay?
That would probably be a costly solution, but a solution none the less  

....
just imagine cows doing what humans do, but every every year instead of 20 years.
oh and before you say les cows than people
cows dont know birth control and dont have the fingers to put a condom on...

think of the reality not the utopia

How about we eat them to extinction?

I volunteer to eat the burgers.

[darkangel11]

Why should the way chicken meat is processed stop me from eating eggs? I don't see how this is related?

It's not the way chicken meat is processed. Baby male chicks are not killed for meat. They are not adult chickens for the meat industry, they're literally newborn chicks. The egg industry kills millions of male chicks because they have no use for them, as they will not lay eggs. Video here if you want evidence, but a serious warning before you look, it's absolutely horrific, so only watch if you're sure you want to. https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/egg-industry/baby-chicks-ground-up-alive/

So the eggs are responsible for the deaths of cocks and if we did not eat eggs nobody would care about them and we'd let them all run free. Is that what you're saying? I'm beginning to see those banners, Stop eating eggs! Save cocks!
So, here's some background story. My grandparents lived in the country, had chickens, made chicken soup out of cocks. My grandpa would catch an old cock or an old hen and chop its head with an axe. I saw that happen when I was a child. Not the greatest view but it's food. It's thousands of years of history. What gives a fox the right to kill a chicken and eat it? Nature. The same nature that gives us humans the ability to hunt and cook meat.

Another background story. I know a guy who had rabbits and is a lousy builder. One night wild dogs broke in and ate all his rabbits. Poor guys were screaming while it happened. I live nearby and tried to stop it but the dogs didn't care for my screams or lights. They were enraged and did their thing anyway. That's nature. At least we humans do it fast and clean.

Most men today are softies who faint at the sight of blood and can't cook anything that doesn't come half-processed.

Should we hunt grizzly bear in alaska ? what about polar bear ? and Alpacas ?
What about elephants, Lion ? panthere ? those are animals, and like wild pigs, or ducks, they don't "belong" to anyone.

Most of these animals aren't tasty. People don't eat carnivores like wolves, and lions. Never did even before they begun to go extinct and hunting them was forbidden. There are rules for hunting and there's really a lot of them like you can't shoot very young animals or mothers who take care of their young. Real hunters have a strict code.

[Mometaskers]

I think the best solution in a post-carnivore world is to just cull domestic animals and keep some remaining in zoos

so in a post farming society (farming to cage and kill animals) you propose a culling and zoo society(caging and killing animals)

the only difference i see is the bi product of the culling is just carcusses left to rot. more human starvation due to the remaining wild animals eating all the fruit and veg meant for humans while offering no meat protein into a diet

oh and if you suggest neutering animals and incinerating carcusses. how many racoons, rats, birds, flies, possums, dingos, coyotes have you seen avoiding cities, how many get neutered. and how much polution is produced by burning a mass culling of wild herds

The culling is before going full-vegan. The farm animal zoo is just to keep vegans occupied. They'd lose all meaning in their lives when society goes vegan.  Not so special anymore.

I don't believe a full-vegan diet is for everyone, I'm simply suggesting how they might go about this. 

The wild animal population isn't exactly gonna be affected, remember the culling only affects domesticated animals. Wild animals would just proceed like before and existing laws on how to deal with those straying into farmland should apply.

As for rats, sky rats and other vermin, they're here to stay. They'd still go to cities whether we go vegan or not. Remember I'm only talking about getting rid of farm animals since that's what vegans are insisting should be done. I suppose afterwards they'd be crying "You monsters, why are you poisoning rats!" #ratlivesmatter #plagueisfun 

[styca]

I'm beginning to see those banners, Stop eating eggs! Save cocks!

If meat-eaters want to eat meat that's their choice. I've already said that. Why would I be waving banners? My point was just that the egg industry breeds millions of chicks and then kills half of them, that's all.

The farm animal zoo is just to keep vegans occupied. They'd lose all meaning in their lives when society goes vegan.  Not so special anymore.

Jesus Christ. VEGANS AREN'T SPECIAL. We are normal people, just like everyone else. I am not superior to meat-eaters, I am not special. Plenty of vegans just want to live quietly without eating animal products. In everyday life I actively go out of my way not to tell people I'm vegan, because I just don't want the aggro. I tell people I don't like the taste of meat and I have dairy allergies. I'm been on this forum for 2 1/2 years, this thread is the first time I've mentioned it here. I'm not judging anyone, other people's decisions are their own. If other people are allowed their own choice, why shouldn't I be allowed mine? I'm not bothering anyone.

Sorry if I'm being aggressive. It's just that the constant sniping really wears me down. Rant over, I'm okay again now.