[Merits again] Discuss the velocity of Bitcoin

[Jet Cash]

Here is a definition of the velocity of Bitcoin and a comparison with the M1 and M2 US dollar money stock.
https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-velocity/

Discuss the impact of changes in velocity on the price of Bitcoin, and the effect that it can have on the acceptance of Bitcoin as a global currency. I appreciate that opinions will be subjective, and may vary from country to country, so pitch in with your opinions. Especially if you can relate it to purchase habits in your own country.

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[Bekuciwu9]

I must admit that before you made this thread, i have never heared about bitcoin velocity, so unfortunately i can't discuss this topic yet, but i thank you for raising this question as i learned something new today, and i will read more about it.
I am pretty sure that most of others beginners ( and not just them)  don't feel confident  enough talking about something like this so that might be the reason why you didn't get any responses yet.

[BIT-BENDER]

I have to say this I am not much of a technical analysts and am also not very good at chart reading. So this reply is all about my little understanding and it's subjected to correction.

With the definition of velocity by the site
"velocity is the measure of how quickly money is  circulating in the economy"  source https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-velocity/

With that in mind velocity of bitcoin can be the "measure of how swift bitcoin is circulating a nations economy.

Change in velocity of bitcoin will impact bitcoin and bitcoin adaptation using my country to site an example the amount of bitcoin circulation in my country although must bitcoin holders are using it as an investment asset and not for a medium of purchasing goods or items, this will make the circulation of bitcoin not as quick or swift as it should be and it would not help in the promotion of the adoption of bitcoin.

If my country can often use bitcoin in daily needs purchase velocity of bitcoin would be increased circulating more bitcoin in the nation economy which will foster the rise of bitcoin adoption in the nation.

I always have in mind about creating a fast bitcoin to fiat conversation and trading center am still thinking about it, more like a place where you can come and get your bitcoin currency converted into fiat or get goods for bitcoin , I know it sounds like an exchange in a way but this is offline and it's for axis close to the center. This would encourage more rising of bitcoin community project

[Mashfiqun]

The term is fairly new to me. I've been studying and gaining insight on the crypto industry and this "velocity" thing sure struck on my mind. As a member said above, we really feel nervous talking about these big subjects due to lack of proper knowledge. Well, I've found what I'll read about today. Bitcoin velocity it is. 

[Jet Cash]

It's all really rather subjective, and even more complex when you consider the velocity as part of a world economy. For example, it may be that in the UK Bitcoin is not used for purchases, but is used as a store of wealth. In my opinion, Bitcoin held in investment wallets is not part of the available currency, A country such as Venezuela may use Bitcoin for everyday transactions, and in this case most of the wallets will contain available currency, Coins spent may go into a wallet, and these cons may be spent again fairly quickly. There are several categories of wallet that will not be a part of the market economy in my opinion. These include the unallocated contents of the reward pool which was created when the genesis block was laid. Miners reserve coins, Coins held by long term HODLers and other investors. Loan securities, Lost or unrecoverable wallet contents. Coins burnt by mistake. Some others may be open for discussion. For example, are the deposits made by users of the lightning network a part of the available currency? What about ungeared trading profits, and what about the profits taken from a successful geared trade.

I think that changes in velocity are quite important indicators for long term investors - one year or more. I'd be interested to hear other opinions, as Bitcoin is such a multi-faceted currency, that it difficult to predict future uses and value.

[GSpgh]

The scale is exponential for some unclear reason, maybe to make it fit nicely on the M2 line?

But the main flaw in this is that Bitcoin transaction volume doesn't reflect actual velocity as defined under the chart ("how quickly money is circulating in the economy"). Someone could be mixing coins, or moving them between cold/hot wallets, or doing something else that doesn't have any correlation with Bitcoin economy, adoption etc. It might have some correlation with transaction fees but even that is not so much important for larger transactions.

[acdc]

Bitcoin can only be considered as the gold of the cryptocurrency market. It is very difficult to be included as a trading currency because the reason is simple, bitcoin is slow and high transaction fees are the limitations of bitcoin. In addition, governments do not like a currency they cannot manage, so it is difficult for Bitcoin to become a global currency.
In my country Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are not considered as a currency but they are considered as speculative assets. Bitcoin transactions are still taxed as normal goods.

[Jet Cash]

Well that is where it gets complicated. Lets take an example of a 500 Bitcoin wallet to wallet transfer that is outside the exchanges. It won't affect the price, which is calculated from exchange traffic, but it may affect sentiment if it is reported by the whale watchers. Now what is that transaction? It could be a whale moving it between wallets for tax purposes, or it could be a withdrawal from a purchasing service. Perhaps it is a whale who leaks the info, and hopes the market will drop after he has shorted Bitcoin. You can't even say that it isn't part of he commercial market, as it may have been used to pay for an oil consignment for example.

Whale reports are often made to mislead the market, and to reinforce a trend. Don't forget that the 500 coin example has a buyer and a seller. So it may be reported as whales dumping Bitcoin by a guy with a short position, or as institutions rushing to buy Bitcoin by a guy with a long position.

[MCDev]

I think Bitcoin should only be considered as an asset or an investment, it is difficult for Bitcoin to become a marketable currency. Bitcoin's very small number of 21,000,000 is not enough for the global market. Bitcoin's fluctuating price is also one of the reasons why Bitcoin is hard to become a currency, you cannot change the price printed on the product every day.
Where I live, you can keep Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies, as you would be against the law if you used them in payment.

[acdc]

Well that is where it gets complicated. Lets take an example of a 500 Bitcoin wallet to wallet transfer that is outside the exchanges. It won't affect the price, which is calculated from exchange traffic, but it may affect sentiment if it is reported by the whale watchers. Now what is that transaction? It could be a whale moving it between wallets for tax purposes, or it could be a withdrawal from a purchasing service. Perhaps it is a whale who leaks the info, and hopes the market will drop after he has shorted Bitcoin. You can't even say that it isn't part of he commercial market, as it may have been used to pay for an oil consignment for example.

Whale reports are often made to mislead the market, and to reinforce a trend. Don't forget that the 500 coin example has a buyer and a seller. So it may be reported as whales dumping Bitcoin by a guy with a short position, or as institutions rushing to buy Bitcoin by a guy with a long position.

Your example shows the weakness of Bitcoin and its community is that it is too sensitive to the news making it hard to become a currency.
In return if it is another currency such as the USD, the central bank and the reserve will take action to stabilize the currency. If it rises too high they will sell it, if it drops deeply they will buy. Besides, the fact that Bitcoin has a huge price fluctuation will adversely affect the economy.
I think that for the very next period of time Bitcoin is only considered a speculation to make a profit.

[QueenVera]

I'll be basing my contribution on the effect velocity of bitcoin has on the price but first I'll like to point out some important key points. The price of bitcoin can be influence by many other factors and sometimes this factors compliment each other (they work hand in hand) and most times the media hype plays a major role considering it's the perfect platform to engage a large audience. The velocity of bitcoin might not have direct impact but it does play a role to trigger a reaction that mighty influence the price of bitcoin since it'll present the assumption that the circulating of bitcoin is either in the increase (causing fud) or decrease (causing fomo). It all depends on how the media interpret the situation to pass on to the masses and that's a disadvantage preventing bitcoin from been accepted as a global currency as the velocity can be easier manipulated.

[ChiBitCTy]

This is a really interesting stuff and thanks for sharing! While I think that this graph is a very neat way to track between the two btc "stances" (currency or storage bullion), I also think that this chart is premature for what it's trying/wanting to prove/show.  We are just 10 years in to btc/cryptocurrency while the US Dollar has obviously been around for much longer.  The US dollar is a highly mature currency that has been used for both short and long term for it's entire existence, hence the straight across lines.  Bitcoin is in its infancy and there are too many factors that throw this chart off.

If you follow the chart one common theme is that when the price of btc falls, so does the size of transaction.  That doesn't mean that it's now being used more so for small , payment transactions, but rather that so many coins were sold off and stopped being bought as much as before. I would argue that small payment transactions have likely steadily increased from day 1 by number of users and rarely go much lower ..however the chart lines are skewed due to this market being so small compared to the dollar, so buying and selling of a few completely offsets the line.  People are likely hodling even more so now than ever imho (by number of users)...however there are several handfuls of whales in the btc markets that move the entire line significantly, not necessarily showing what the avg person is really doing.  Will look further in to this and see if I still agree w/myself here but that's my 2 satoshis.

edit- my apologies if redundant, didn't read others posts yet, wanted to give my 2 before doing so then compare/adjust.

[dkbit98]

Bitcoin velocity also connected to BTC fees, so if we can improve there and make fees lower, velocity would be higher.
I would like to see charts of Bitcoin Velocity compared to recent failed currencies in Latin America and Venezuela for example.
We have to take in consideration that Bitcoin is used there, and lot of that is not even registered, as some consider it illegal.

[hd49728]

Bitcoin velocity also connected to BTC fees, so if we can improve there and make fees lower, velocity would be higher.
I would like to see charts of Bitcoin Velocity compared to recent failed currencies in Latin America and Venezuela for example.
We have to take in consideration that Bitcoin is used there, and lot of that is not even registered, as some consider it illegal.

What you say was right back in 2017 or early of 2018, but now I think it is not right. Fees of Bitcoin transactions has become very cheap and does not an issue when people want to use Bitcoin as means to transfer their funds.

The barrier that hinders Bitcoin from massive acceptance is its too long block time (10 minutes). It means people have to wait at least 10 minutes to see their transactions get first confirmations. If in the future, developers can reduce block time to help Bitcoin users having confirmations faster, I think the really big explosion of Bitcoin will occur. Lightning network has not yet shown its good effects as we expected.

[JayJuanGee]

Bitcoin velocity also connected to BTC fees, so if we can improve there and make fees lower, velocity would be higher.
I would like to see charts of Bitcoin Velocity compared to recent failed currencies in Latin America and Venezuela for example.
We have to take in consideration that Bitcoin is used there, and lot of that is not even registered, as some consider it illegal.

What you say was right back in 2017 or early of 2018, but now I think it is not right. Fees of Bitcoin transactions has become very cheap and does not an issue when people want to use Bitcoin as means to transfer their funds.

The barrier that hinders Bitcoin from massive acceptance is its too long block time (10 minutes). It means people have to wait at least 10 minutes to see their transactions get first confirmations. If in the future, developers can reduce block time to help Bitcoin users having confirmations faster, I think the really big explosion of Bitcoin will occur. Lightning network has not yet shown its good effects as we expected.

I doubt that transaction times of 10 minutes for 1 confirmation is holding BTC back.  Sure, at some point bitcoin is going to become better for smaller transactions and for quick payments, etc etc... but rome was not built in a day, and of course, lightning network is attempting to make bitcoin better in the small/quick transactions arena.

In accordance with Gresham's law, there is going to be reluctance to spend the best money, and bitcoin is the best money, but of course, if other monies are removed from the system because they die away or maybe there might be places where people do not have any other options, then in those circumstances they can spend their precious bitcoins.... otherwise, currently, there are fewer incentives to spend bitcoins when there remains so much upward price potential and there are likely other options that are available to people.  Of course, I would rather spend credit card, cash or some other means if it is going to allow me fewer transactions and I am also concerned that BTC prices might be going up before I am able to replace the BTC that I had spent in such hypothetical transaction(s).

[ChiBitCTy]

Bitcoin velocity also connected to BTC fees, so if we can improve there and make fees lower, velocity would be higher.
I would like to see charts of Bitcoin Velocity compared to recent failed currencies in Latin America and Venezuela for example.
We have to take in consideration that Bitcoin is used there, and lot of that is not even registered, as some consider it illegal.

What you say was right back in 2017 or early of 2018, but now I think it is not right. Fees of Bitcoin transactions has become very cheap and does not an issue when people want to use Bitcoin as means to transfer their funds.

The barrier that hinders Bitcoin from massive acceptance is its too long block time (10 minutes). It means people have to wait at least 10 minutes to see their transactions get first confirmations. If in the future, developers can reduce block time to help Bitcoin users having confirmations faster, I think the really big explosion of Bitcoin will occur. Lightning network has not yet shown its good effects as we expected.

I doubt that transaction times of 10 minutes for 1 confirmation is holding BTC back.  Sure, at some point bitcoin is going to become better for smaller transactions and for quick payments, etc etc... but rome was not built in a day, and of course, lightning network is attempting to make bitcoin better in the small/quick transactions arena.

In accordance with Gresham's law, there is going to be reluctance to spend the best money, and bitcoin is the best money, but of course, if other monies are removed from the system because they die away or maybe there might be places where people do not have any other options, then in those circumstances they can spend their precious bitcoins.... otherwise, currently, there are fewer incentives to spend bitcoins when there remains so much upward price potential and there are likely other options that are available to people.  Of course, I would rather spend credit card, cash or some other means if it is going to allow me fewer transactions and I am also concerned that BTC prices might be going up before I am able to replace the BTC that I had spent in such hypothetical transaction(s).

Humbly I have to disagree here entirely. When you're buying something in person, 99% of the time someone needs that payment instantly. Not in 10mn. People don't have time to wait around for that, on both sides. Fast and easy is what it's all about.  That's why apple pay, tap cards, etc are so popular. 

I love Bitcoin, but to say it's the "best" money, I can't agree with you there.  No currency of any kind is more coveted than the US dollar. It's backed by the strongest nation in the world, accepted by many worldwide (the US dollar is the only dollar you can take to other countries where there is a chance they will still accept it). Now is bitcoin the "best" money by concept? I could absolutely argue that point. Until transactions are LN fast, and volatility slows down greatly...it's likely to simply remain the "bullion of currency".  A safe haven. I've transacted using LN before and it's fantastic and I've got great hope for it's future use...but the fact that it makes transaction anonymous (or mostly so) is scary to me.  See  Monero country bans for example.  I hope btc transactions remain multi layered.  This still has so many question marks however.  I do have faith as the older generations die off, that society as a whole will accept digital anonymous transactions much more so.  The old farts are the ones really fighting it. why?...

"There are critics who criticize this technology primarily based on their world view.   It is politically inconsistent with their world view.  It’s not that they do not like the technology it’s that they do not like the implications of this technology and the primary criticism you get then is “this should not be” to which all I can answer is ..and yet it is.  “but we mustn’t”… and yet we did, “but you shouldn’t”.. but yet we did"- Andreas Antonopoulos. 

[JayJuanGee]

Bitcoin velocity also connected to BTC fees, so if we can improve there and make fees lower, velocity would be higher.
I would like to see charts of Bitcoin Velocity compared to recent failed currencies in Latin America and Venezuela for example.
We have to take in consideration that Bitcoin is used there, and lot of that is not even registered, as some consider it illegal.

What you say was right back in 2017 or early of 2018, but now I think it is not right. Fees of Bitcoin transactions has become very cheap and does not an issue when people want to use Bitcoin as means to transfer their funds.

The barrier that hinders Bitcoin from massive acceptance is its too long block time (10 minutes). It means people have to wait at least 10 minutes to see their transactions get first confirmations. If in the future, developers can reduce block time to help Bitcoin users having confirmations faster, I think the really big explosion of Bitcoin will occur. Lightning network has not yet shown its good effects as we expected.

I doubt that transaction times of 10 minutes for 1 confirmation is holding BTC back.  Sure, at some point bitcoin is going to become better for smaller transactions and for quick payments, etc etc... but rome was not built in a day, and of course, lightning network is attempting to make bitcoin better in the small/quick transactions arena.

In accordance with Gresham's law, there is going to be reluctance to spend the best money, and bitcoin is the best money, but of course, if other monies are removed from the system because they die away or maybe there might be places where people do not have any other options, then in those circumstances they can spend their precious bitcoins.... otherwise, currently, there are fewer incentives to spend bitcoins when there remains so much upward price potential and there are likely other options that are available to people.  Of course, I would rather spend credit card, cash or some other means if it is going to allow me fewer transactions and I am also concerned that BTC prices might be going up before I am able to replace the BTC that I had spent in such hypothetical transaction(s).

Humbly I have to disagree here entirely. When you're buying something in person, 99% of the time someone needs that payment instantly. Not in 10mn.

Great.  Don't use bitcoin then, if it going to be a potential issue.

People don't have time to wait around for that, on both sides. Fast and easy is what it's all about.  That's why apple pay, tap cards, etc are so popular. 

Are you saying anything different from me?  You think that bitcoin's primary use case is to compete with those payment mechanisms?  Do you think that bitcoin serving as a payment mechanism adds much value to why people actually currently want bitcoin?

Get real.  Sounds like you are brainwashed by some shitcoin ideas about what actually brings value to bitcoin and what bitcoins actual innovation was.. 11 years ago and still building.

I love Bitcoin, but to say it's the "best" money, I can't agree with you there. 

Bitcoin  is the most sound money ever.  What do you mean by "best"?  Do you even understand gresham's law? 

No currency of any kind is more coveted than the US dollar.

How well do you believe that the USD is going to hold its value against bitcoin in the coming years? 

How well has the USD held its value against bitcoin in the past 11 years?

Of course, the USD has a lot of liquidity, and there are some ways that USD is better than bitcoin, but in terms of holding its value, good luck if you are going to invest in the USD and not invest in bitcoin in the coming years.  You might be correct, but I think that the odds are against you, in terms of concluding which one is going to have more value in the coming years.  Of course, investing in bitcoin does not need to be an all or nothing proposition, and if you already are used to having dollars, you might want to consider how much to hedge in bitcoin.. Don't overdo it, either way.  Good luck, sounds like you are going to need it if you are getting distracted into love of the dollar in comparison to bitcoin.

It's backed by the strongest nation in the world, accepted by many worldwide (the US dollar is the only dollar you can take to other countries where there is a chance they will still accept it).

Do I have any problems with the dollar?  How about you try transporting $1million worth of value over the border and compare doing that with bitcoin or the dollar?  Sure it is a hypothetical, but there are use cases for bitcoin, too, and maybe you need to consider that before getting all high and mighty about whatever seemingly lame dollar loving points that you seem to be attempting to make.

Now is bitcoin the "best" money by concept?

When it comes to sound money, we are going to see how this plays out in the coming years.  I can see that you are trying to narrow in on some nonsense points which don't really tell us much about what is the value of bitcoin as compared to the dollar and how individuals might chose to allocate their holdings depending on their own situations, including their cash flows, other investments (or options), risk tolerance, timeline, skills and research abilities etc.

I could absolutely argue that point.

You could argue, but why should you?

Until transactions are LN fast, and volatility slows down greatly...it's likely to simply remain the "bullion of currency".  A safe haven.

Anything wrong with that?  Bitcoin might not be the same for everyone in terms of their various use cases and the extent to which they might want to hold some of it for the present or for the future.

I've transacted using LN before and it's fantastic and I've got great hope for it's future use...but the fact that it makes transaction anonymous (or mostly so) is scary to me. 

Yes.  Lightning network is one option within bitcoin that is still being developed, as you seem to know, but you want to get scared about some nonsense point.  You can use lightning or not.  It is your choice, so no need to get scared, especially if you chose not to use it.

See  Monero country bans for example. 

Who gives any shits about Monero?  Does that somehow relate to bitcoin? 

Yeah, if Monero has some features that bitcoin wants to incorporate, then maybe that could be relevant to bitcoin, and those features might be absorbed into bitcoin, and on the other hand, if Monero provides some utility that you value, then you could do that, too, if you want.  Otherwise, who cares about Monero?

I hope btc transactions remain multi layered. 

Seems to me that there are going to continue to be various onchain developments as well as second layer and even third (or more) layer developments in bitcoin.  Rome was not built in a day, and bitcoin seems to have a lot of options and a lot of development, so we seem to be in quite early stages, so your wish about multi-layered seems likely to remain a reality in bitcoin and likely even to get quite expanded in the years to come, from my largely non-technical understanding what seems to be bitcoin's ongoing development direction.

This still has so many question marks however. 

Of course, bitcoin is like a plane that is continuing to be built while it is flying, including some disconnection between various player that are building it along the way.

I do have faith as the older generations die off, that society as a whole will accept digital anonymous transactions much more so.  The old farts are the ones really fighting it. why?...

I doubt that there is any kind of generational complication here, beyond normal changes that happen in society with passing down traditions or creating new traditions and practices.  Of course, with anything new, it takes a while for society to adapt to it and for use cases to evolve and for problems to be identified, to the extent that they exist, but there are social interactions too about what is going to be acceptable and accepted and what is not, so there are different concepts of "acceptable" in different parts of the world. 

"There are critics who criticize this technology primarily based on their world view.   It is politically inconsistent with their world view.  It’s not that they do not like the technology it’s that they do not like the implications of this technology and the primary criticism you get then is “this should not be” to which all I can answer is ..and yet it is.  “but we mustn’t”… and yet we did, “but you shouldn’t”.. but yet we did"- Andreas Antonopoulos. 

Hard to disagree with Andreas on many things, and so in some sense, he seems to be saying that bitcoin does not give any shits because things just happen and things just change with the passage of time.

[dkbit98]

I found this website that is showing live velocity and other useful information regarding Bitcoin in real time.
You can see that in last 24h Bitcoin velocity was around 530%
https://bytetree.com/bitcoin
  

[ChiBitCTy]

Bitcoin velocity also connected to BTC fees, so if we can improve there and make fees lower, velocity would be higher.
I would like to see charts of Bitcoin Velocity compared to recent failed currencies in Latin America and Venezuela for example.
We have to take in consideration that Bitcoin is used there, and lot of that is not even registered, as some consider it illegal.

What you say was right back in 2017 or early of 2018, but now I think it is not right. Fees of Bitcoin transactions has become very cheap and does not an issue when people want to use Bitcoin as means to transfer their funds.

The barrier that hinders Bitcoin from massive acceptance is its too long block time (10 minutes). It means people have to wait at least 10 minutes to see their transactions get first confirmations. If in the future, developers can reduce block time to help Bitcoin users having confirmations faster, I think the really big explosion of Bitcoin will occur. Lightning network has not yet shown its good effects as we expected.

I doubt that transaction times of 10 minutes for 1 confirmation is holding BTC back.  Sure, at some point bitcoin is going to become better for smaller transactions and for quick payments, etc etc... but rome was not built in a day, and of course, lightning network is attempting to make bitcoin better in the small/quick transactions arena.

In accordance with Gresham's law, there is going to be reluctance to spend the best money, and bitcoin is the best money, but of course, if other monies are removed from the system because they die away or maybe there might be places where people do not have any other options, then in those circumstances they can spend their precious bitcoins.... otherwise, currently, there are fewer incentives to spend bitcoins when there remains so much upward price potential and there are likely other options that are available to people.  Of course, I would rather spend credit card, cash or some other means if it is going to allow me fewer transactions and I am also concerned that BTC prices might be going up before I am able to replace the BTC that I had spent in such hypothetical transaction(s).

Humbly I have to disagree here entirely. When you're buying something in person, 99% of the time someone needs that payment instantly. Not in 10mn.

Great.  Don't use bitcoin then, if it going to be a potential issue.

People don't have time to wait around for that, on both sides. Fast and easy is what it's all about.  That's why apple pay, tap cards, etc are so popular. 

Are you saying anything different from me?  You think that bitcoin's primary use case is to compete with those payment mechanisms?  Do you think that bitcoin serving as a payment mechanism adds much value to why people actually currently want bitcoin?

Get real.  Sounds like you are brainwashed by some shitcoin ideas about what actually brings value to bitcoin and what bitcoins actual innovation was.. 11 years ago and still building.

I love Bitcoin, but to say it's the "best" money, I can't agree with you there. 

Bitcoin  is the most sound money ever.  What do you mean by "best"?  Do you even understand gresham's law? 

No currency of any kind is more coveted than the US dollar.

How well do you believe that the USD is going to hold its value against bitcoin in the coming years? 

How well has the USD held its value against bitcoin in the past 11 years?

Of course, the USD has a lot of liquidity, and there are some ways that USD is better than bitcoin, but in terms of holding its value, good luck if you are going to invest in the USD and not invest in bitcoin in the coming years.  You might be correct, but I think that the odds are against you, in terms of concluding which one is going to have more value in the coming years.  Of course, investing in bitcoin does not need to be an all or nothing proposition, and if you already are used to having dollars, you might want to consider how much to hedge in bitcoin.. Don't overdo it, either way.  Good luck, sounds like you are going to need it if you are getting distracted into love of the dollar in comparison to bitcoin.

It's backed by the strongest nation in the world, accepted by many worldwide (the US dollar is the only dollar you can take to other countries where there is a chance they will still accept it).

Do I have any problems with the dollar?  How about you try transporting $1million worth of value over the border and compare doing that with bitcoin or the dollar?  Sure it is a hypothetical, but there are use cases for bitcoin, too, and maybe you need to consider that before getting all high and mighty about whatever seemingly lame dollar loving points that you seem to be attempting to make.

Now is bitcoin the "best" money by concept?

When it comes to sound money, we are going to see how this plays out in the coming years.  I can see that you are trying to narrow in on some nonsense points which don't really tell us much about what is the value of bitcoin as compared to the dollar and how individuals might chose to allocate their holdings depending on their own situations, including their cash flows, other investments (or options), risk tolerance, timeline, skills and research abilities etc.

I could absolutely argue that point.

You could argue, but why should you?

Until transactions are LN fast, and volatility slows down greatly...it's likely to simply remain the "bullion of currency".  A safe haven.

Anything wrong with that?  Bitcoin might not be the same for everyone in terms of their various use cases and the extent to which they might want to hold some of it for the present or for the future.

I've transacted using LN before and it's fantastic and I've got great hope for it's future use...but the fact that it makes transaction anonymous (or mostly so) is scary to me. 

Yes.  Lightning network is one option within bitcoin that is still being developed, as you seem to know, but you want to get scared about some nonsense point.  You can use lightning or not.  It is your choice, so no need to get scared, especially if you chose not to use it.

See  Monero country bans for example. 

Who gives any shits about Monero?  Does that somehow relate to bitcoin? 

Yeah, if Monero has some features that bitcoin wants to incorporate, then maybe that could be relevant to bitcoin, and those features might be absorbed into bitcoin, and on the other hand, if Monero provides some utility that you value, then you could do that, too, if you want.  Otherwise, who cares about Monero?

I hope btc transactions remain multi layered. 

Seems to me that there are going to continue to be various onchain developments as well as second layer and even third (or more) layer developments in bitcoin.  Rome was not built in a day, and bitcoin seems to have a lot of options and a lot of development, so we seem to be in quite early stages, so your wish about multi-layered seems likely to remain a reality in bitcoin and likely even to get quite expanded in the years to come, from my largely non-technical understanding what seems to be bitcoin's ongoing development direction.

This still has so many question marks however. 

Of course, bitcoin is like a plane that is continuing to be built while it is flying, including some disconnection between various player that are building it along the way.

I do have faith as the older generations die off, that society as a whole will accept digital anonymous transactions much more so.  The old farts are the ones really fighting it. why?...

I doubt that there is any kind of generational complication here, beyond normal changes that happen in society with passing down traditions or creating new traditions and practices.  Of course, with anything new, it takes a while for society to adapt to it and for use cases to evolve and for problems to be identified, to the extent that they exist, but there are social interactions too about what is going to be acceptable and accepted and what is not, so there are different concepts of "acceptable" in different parts of the world. 

"There are critics who criticize this technology primarily based on their world view.   It is politically inconsistent with their world view.  It’s not that they do not like the technology it’s that they do not like the implications of this technology and the primary criticism you get then is “this should not be” to which all I can answer is ..and yet it is.  “but we mustn’t”… and yet we did, “but you shouldn’t”.. but yet we did"- Andreas Antonopoulos. 

Hard to disagree with Andreas on many things, and so in some sense, he seems to be saying that bitcoin does not give any shits because things just happen and things just change with the passage of time.

Lol holy shit man, I'm not sure I've ever seen someone take something out of context as much as you just did here. First off, I was trying to have a legit convo, not trash talk what you said but to provide my opposing viewpoint (and educated opinion).  I'm an investment advisor by trade, so I'm pretty familiar with how money works and what's realistic and what's not..at this present moment.

I am almost completely a btc maximalist ( I do like Monero quite a bit ). I also don't view btc as much of an investment (since it inherently is not just as satoshi made clear) as I do a currency that is decentralized, permission-less, fungible etc that can change the world. The power it gives back to the people to no longer be fucked over by big banks which are evil to their core is something I've dreamed of since I found out about it.

I just wanted to quickly point out a few things. I would enjoy an open discussion that doesn't include throwing jabs and trying to belittle someones viewpoints (whether they were perceived correctly or not)..but that doesn't seem like it's your type of thing. 

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

Lol holy shit man, I'm not sure I've ever seen someone take something out of context as much as you just did here. First off, I was trying to have a legit convo, not trash talk what you said but to provide my opposing viewpoint (and educated opinion).  I'm an investment advisor by trade, so I'm pretty familiar with how money works and what's realistic and what's not..at this present moment.

Oh?  So you believe that we are not having an intelligent and or "legit" conversation if the response does not follow some of your expected parameters?  Didn't I attempt to respond to all of your points, to the extent that I thought that I understood them to be?

I am almost completely a btc maximalist ( I do like Monero quite a bit ).

Nothing wrong with that, I suppose.

I also don't view btc as much of an investment (since it inherently is not just as satoshi made clear) as I do a currency that is decentralized, permission-less, fungible etc that can change the world. The power it gives back to the people to no longer be fucked over by big banks which are evil to their core is something I've dreamed of since I found out about it.

i suppose if you believe that bitcoin is not meeting its objective, then you are free enough to invest in snake oils, if you believe that they might be able to do better than bitcoin.  I personally believe bitcoin is living up to its initial hype, and maybe even beyond expectations.  Of course, I did not get involved in BTC in the earliest of days, so I only started to study it in late 2013, within the context of my first beginning to develop a BTC related investment plan and attempting to continue it and to tweak it along the way.  Personally, I believe that bitcoin has met if not exceeded my initial expectations, and surely has become a lot more involved in my life than I though that it was going to be, especially in my earliest days of looking into it.  Surely, each person is going to have a different opinion regarding his/her life experiences, the extent to which s/he has studied into bitcoin as compared to other possible investments and/or whether s/he is actually content with what bitcoin has delivered in light of initial expectations (and whether those initial expectations were accurate or even if the present expectations are accurate).

I just wanted to quickly point out a few things. I would enjoy an open discussion that doesn't include throwing jabs and trying to belittle someones viewpoints (whether they were perceived correctly or not)..but that doesn't seem like it's your type of thing. 

I believe that I am fairly tolerant of differing views, so whether you are getting emotional about it or whether you believe that I am disrespecting you, that is upon you.  You said whatever you said, and I responded within my discretion regarding how I thought, at the time, that I should respond.  We may or may not end up agreeing, but if you believe that there is some kind of standard regard that you deserve, then we might end up not being ready, willing or able to figure out the extent to which we might agree or disagree about some of these matters or the extent to which our disagreement even matters, because each of us is free to conclude his/her own ways, to invest accordingly or to share or not, such ideas in the various threads of this forum.