Lightning Network Lenders' (and borrowers) discussion thread.

[Timelord2067]

It's the only on chain LN test transaction incoming in weeks.

I only sent 0.1 tBTC on-chain: ac7b33813049d3dc9530ac16505a5fc209165cc4e702a2787ab8b1dfe22d4f2a.

~ then it's as lost as the nearly 0.01 on the mainnet Eclair.

Can you post txids for those transactions? I don't think it's going to help much, but I'm curious where the funds went. After all, on-chain funds can't disappear.

OK, there's 0.00432483 that is a lost TX sent 8394ba975c7cbde33af61873bd467055cbb8e7e6192054b93a7415065157eb23 from my tablet Eclair to my mobile phone Eclair. (mentioned in PM previously to LoyceV)

Then there are two "unconfirmed" TX for channels being opened

0.0010528 TX 7da61cc308c27a2e70e9fcf114a2a44425a87e833dcf9fde59457940ebb89777

0.0010801 TX bda728fcee84f76ccc193a156786bcee4475c69171e81cbb9aa6e0449a34c9a1

then I have on my Eclair mobile phone - on the block-chain 0.00251849

the last two TX outbound from the on-chain wallet are

0.00010495 TX 71b778d03b7893b73ac743a04bbccea76fe93ce49bd5964b0541ea8e395aaf81

0.0010765 TX c3caaed89b5595d79d102734748837a9c5891a27aa2c2bd7ca1fb41e2f2c33b8

and finally some dust in the three open channels - I've managed in the last two days to slowly withdraw just over 0.0015 to a "Blue" Wallet which is a whole other post about how I am growing to like Blue, but I share LoyceV's concerns about the proprietary aspect of the "Blue" wallet structure.


In saying all of the above transactions,

• the 0.00432483 shows as confirmed on the block-chain, but did not "appear" in the Eclair wallet.
• the 0.0010528 channel shows as "unconfirmed" on Eclair but confirmed on the block-chain
• the 0.0010801 channel shows as "unconfirmed" on Eclair but confirmed on the block-chain
• the on chain tx 0.00010495 arrived in the blue wallet as did
• the on chain tx 0.0010765 which also arrived in the Blue wallet.
  
  I believe the unspent 0.00083229 change may not part of the block-chain 0.00251849 but I have nothing to show as evidence of that assertion.

There is a total of 0.00027500042 on the LN according to Eclair. (the three open channels I have managed to empty to my Blue wallet)


On my Blue wallet, I now have 0.0001 on chain and 0.00150845 on LN. (the latter got shifted in increasingly tiny amounts 1500 - 2500 sats, so there were more than a dozen TX's involved. All of these funds came from the mobile phone's Eclair wallet.  The remaining balances are after these funds were sent)

It won't be a double spend then. Almost every time you do a double spend you have to know you've done it (on most wallets). I haven't found one that doesn't...


Can you find the 2of2 multisig address then? You should be able to see where the funds came back into your account and you can just send that address or txid then.

It'll have a multisig input script if you want to know what it'll look like on a blockchain explorer but anything in the link posted is enough for us to find it.

Loyce sent me a link to a diagnostic to delve into the back end of the wallet but I haven't been able to find what I was looking for.


Loyce also mentioned the check Eclair app feature - I've run it a couple of times and I'm still in the same situation.

[1714034965]

1714034965

[LoyceV]

I am growing to like Blue, but I share LoyceV's concerns about the proprietary aspect of the "Blue" wallet structure.

It's just easy to use

the 0.00432483 shows as confirmed on the block-chain, but did not "appear" in the Eclair wallet.

This is the weirdest one, as it has nothing to do with LN. If 3Hn6UVrbLmiV16ya4stoPtunGBjkzoLNig is part of your wallet, it should show up. If that addy is not part of your Eclair wallet, you somehow got the wrong address.
Have you tried installing Eclair on another device with the same seed phrase?

• the 0.0010528 channel shows as "unconfirmed" on Eclair but confirmed on the block-chain
• the 0.0010801 channel shows as "unconfirmed" on Eclair but confirmed on the block-chain

Is this the same Eclair wallet?

There is a total of 0.00027500042 on the LN according to Eclair. (the three open channels I have managed to empty to my Blue wallet)

Is that the channel reserve? So if you close it, it goes to fees?

On my Blue wallet, I now have 0.0001 on chain and 0.00150845 on LN. (the latter got shifted in increasingly tiny amounts 1500 - 2500 sats, so there were more than a dozen TX's involved. All of these funds came from the mobile phone's Eclair wallet.  The remaining balances are after these funds were sent)

One of the things I disliked in Eclair was that my sending capacity varies depending on the momentary on-chain fee. I assume this is because the channel reserve varies *so there's enough to force-close the channel when needed), but I don't like the way "chain problems" are transfered into LN.

Loyce sent me a link to a diagnostic to delve into the back end of the wallet

I did?

[jackg]

Loyce may be becoming a politician .

I'm using eclair at the moment, the fearutes are fairly basic afaik. You can set a fee when you open a channel and that's probably about it (although you can see balances in fiat too which probably isn't much of a feature - they all do that).

I'd check who sent that diagnostic tool and check that you can trust it, you might end up compromising your channels and their funds if you make a mistake and an old CT is broadcast (assuming those rules are implemented). If it was you with the pending channels, you might want to close active ones for a while while you run the diagnostic too just to be on the safe side (but that's just my two cents on the matter)... I'm kinda curious if that was just that a redemption transaction went unbroadcast because you had no funds to take out of the channel or something like that...

[Timelord2067]

All of the above transactions are the mobile phone Eclair wallet.

The link from Loyce was a web page to enter the /12/24 passwords and delve into the various wallet addresses.  My mistake is I don't seem to have written down the passwords for the Eclair wallet in question.

the dust in the LN for the three channels open is the held for closing funds, so there wouldn't be any point in closing those three which are all now max inbound.  I'm wondering if the two "unconfirmed" channels (that have been confirmed on the block-chain) are still in operation and might still work with the inbound channels? If a stray TX were to come via any of the three inbounds and go out via the two "unconfirmed" channels, then I could simply leave the Eclair wallet running from time to time and then shift any inbound back out again?

[jackg]

Afaik you can't have a channel without any funds in it...

There's a minimum amount you can have in a channel.

Like the one I opened with whacker/daveF has a limit of 40 micro btc.

[Timelord2067]

Afaik you can't have a channel without any funds in it...

There's a minimum amount you can have in a channel.

Like the one I opened with whacker/daveF has a limit of 40 micro btc.

One has seven and a bit satoshis, the other 235 and a bit satoshis and the third has a shave over a thousand satoshis that can be sent. (the balances total 0.00027500042 in the three channels).

Two started with 0.01 and 0.011 balances and the third was, um 0.0011 starting balance.


The 0.0010528 and 0.0010801 "unconfirmed" (but in reality actually are confirmed) balances probably make up the 0.00251849 on-chain balance that can't be moved to another wallet address.

[LoyceV]

The link from Loyce was a web page to enter the /12/24 passwords and delve into the various wallet addresses.

Ian Coleman's Mnemonic Code Converter (this should only be used offline, ideally from a LIVE Linux DVD so that all traces are gone when you turn off the computer).

My mistake is I don't seem to have written down the passwords for the Eclair wallet in question.

So you can't use the wallet and can't find your addresses using the backup words?

If a stray TX were to come via any of the three inbounds and go out via the two "unconfirmed" channels

I'm not sure what exactly you're going at here, but I'm pretty sure you need to be a node to route other transactions.

The 0.0010528 and 0.0010801 "unconfirmed" (but in reality actually are confirmed) balances probably make up the 0.00251849 on-chain balance that can't be moved to another wallet address.

I'm still clueless how this happened

[Timelord2067]

My mistake is I don't seem to have written down the passwords for the Eclair wallet in question.

So you can't use the wallet and can't find your addresses using the backup words?

Yup, that's a mistake I can call my own.

[jackg]

My mistake is I don't seem to have written down the passwords for the Eclair wallet in question.

So you can't use the wallet and can't find your addresses using the backup words?

Yup, that's a mistake I can call my own.

I just took a screenshot, any chance you did?

[LoyceMobile]

My favorite password to try is 000000.
Eclair only uses 6 digits, that password should be easy to brute force, if there's any software that does it.

[Timelord2o67]

My favorite password to try is 000000.
Eclair only uses 6 digits, that password should be easy to brute force, if there's any software that does it.

I've got the six number password, but I don't seem to have written down the twelve/twenty-four word password.

I just took a screenshot, any chance you did?

Screenshot of ??

[jackg]

My nmonic seed words.

Can you backup the app data just to be sure?

[LoyceV]

I don't seem to have written down the twelve/twenty-four word password.

I can't find the option to export the mnemonic again in Eclair, but if you have the password and the wallet itself works, that means the wallet has the mnemonic stored somewhere. Eclair is open source, so it must be possible to get the mnemonic out somehow. It's probably not worth the effort (yet) though for 0.004BTC.

[Timelord2067]

I don't seem to have written down the twelve/twenty-four word password.

I can't find the option to export the mnemonic again in Eclair, but if you have the password and the wallet itself works, that means the wallet has the mnemonic stored somewhere. Eclair is open source, so it must be possible to get the mnemonic out somehow. It's probably not worth the effort (yet) though for 0.004BTC.

Which is why I'm happy to keep it on standby and use Blue for small amount testing. (and yes, I have the 24 word password written down)

[LoyceV]

Which is why I'm happy to keep it on standby and use Blue for small amount testing. (and yes, I have the 24 word password written down)

Did you also backup the Lightning wallets within BlueWallet? That's a separate backup, and each new wallet needs a new backup. I used to take a picture of the QR-code, but the latest version allows to copy the code to clipboard so I've emailed it to myself. Not very secure, but I don't mind for small amounts.

I don't even have an on-chain wallet in BlueWallet anymore: I can fund the LN-wallet from any other Bitcoin wallet directly, and if I want to get funds back on-chain I use an external exchange.

[jackg]

It probably is secure enough to push your channel backup to your emails... The 12/24 word seed keys should be used for the signing derived from your mnemonic.

@TL, if you don't want to lose it/want to expand your channels more then you can always transfer the funds to the new wallet.


Does my personal text look alright? I can't work out what to call it that'll fie in the length limit.

[Timelord2067]

Did you also backup the Lightning wallets within BlueWallet?

Yes - I've got all wallets (Zap on PC, Eclair on Tablet and now Blue on Mobile) - just not the first Eclair on mobile.

@TL, if you don't want to lose it/want to expand your channels more then you can always transfer the funds to the new wallet.

Done (see above)

Does my personal text look alright? I can't work out what to call it that'll fie in the length limit.

On my mobile up to the arrow are on one line then the rest.

On my PC, the whole lot are on one line. It conveys the message.

[jackg]

Someone had an issue of sending a certain amount of funds on one of the threads above a certain amount and I think I know the issue...

From what I can tell, each node will have a limit of how much it wants to dedicate to a HTLC (which is the contract of a hop from one channel to another). It's normally a fraction of what is held in the channel afaik but it's set because anything that goes into a HTLC is locked from everyone until it either expires or the receiver of the funds receives it.

For example, if me and timelord do a transaction and we both have a channel open with ACINQ, the funds would go: Timelord → ACINQ → jackg

However they're locked for a certain amount of time so

	Locked for 2 days		Locked for a day
Timelord	→	Acinq	→	jackg

Funds aren't normally locked for long as a new Commitment Transaction can be generated to invalidate the HTLC but it still exists if one party becomes uncompliant so their funds are locked up...

[Timelord2o67]

As a courtesy I'm letting you know that I've closed my Lightning Network test&main net lending tread for the time being.

I'll leave this tread open for anyone who wants information on the LN.


While I'll stop well short of  saying this has been an abject failure, both Éclair (main&testnets) wallets are now frozen with =< 0.01 main and 3.8 testnet frozen/lost (which took me a while of faucet scrounging to accumulate). The Zap wallet does not appear to allow inbound connections and the Blue Wallet is purportedly proprietary with no way to connect to other nodes, little or no transaction information being some of the issues I've encountered.

I'm an advocate for the Lightning Network, but these three programs have a way to go.

[jackg]

Wait how/why are they frozen? I might be able to take a look at them but youd have to trust me with your seed (encrypted with an address I present)...

You can track all your funds anyway since you know the address though that they're in.

How did they get stuck can you see what's going on from there - we can try remotely fixing it can you not take the channel offline (I have telegram @jackg54 if you want to contact me to see if we can fix it) ? (I don't really know how testnet works either).

I had hoped lightning with electrum would be released a lot faster than this however I'll leave my thread open in case there's any interest (bumping occasionally).