Bitcoin cannot be decentralized if the Internet is centralized

[ufaiz50]

I do not see any relation about the internet and bitcoin. And as the members here say, by buying ISPs or FTP cables, routers and switches you can create your own home network (while I was studying at the university taking information and technology) no one was afraid of Internet.

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[Rosilito]

As your argument says so, Bitcoin is also centralized partially in nodes located in China. Apply the same logic/analogy to internet. These partial centralization is only among ISPs, that conform to a gateway to reach other parts of the world. Without them, it would be hard to lay your own cables and build infrastructure that would interconnect all the Bitcoin nodes. And even we are partially 'centralized' because of ISPs purpose to run our network, they still provide us freedom to what we do and connect to on the internet since it is our right, and doesn't really affect the decentralization of the network.

Yes, I agree with this man. Although they play a major part in providing data that doesn't mean they are the authority itself of the INTERNET. It is just that it would be very hard to drop long cable just to connect to facebook's, amazon's or whatever it is. What they control is that the stuff we can manipulate and see on their platform but not the INTERNET itself, and ISPs are just trying to control the flow (might be speed) we received in different household who subscribe in such ISPs services.

So may be there is nothing need to be worried about? Bitcoin is decentralized as it is, and internet is decentralized.

[sujon5]

Bitcoin is the first decentralized peer-to-peer payment network that is powered by its users with no central authority or middlemen. It will never become centralized. Can you imagine that a single person/group of people/company will own all Bitcoins? No. The system was created to prevent it.

[bitcoinsocial09]

Satoshi's invention of a revolutionary form of money that would give people control over their funds back in 2009 (Bitcoin), turned out to be a success. While the cryptocurrency's PoW consensus is partially centralized (mostly dominated by the Chinese), it has a wide distribution of nodes all across the globe. Theoretically speaking, Bitcoin is decentralized where anyone can set up a node to support the Blockchain. With enough capital, it's possible to secure Bitcoin in our homes with sophisticated ASIC machines too.

So far, many people believe that Bitcoin is truly decentralized as "no one" controls it. But the harsh reality is that every single cryptocurrency and Blockchain network depends on the Internet to survive. It's no secret that in today's world, big companies like Google, Facebook, and even Amazon control the Internet. On the other hand, ISPs (Internet Service Providers) have a final say over what people can view or host using the Internet. This means that Internet is centralized, greatly defeating the purpose of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies of eliminating the middleman.

For Bitcoin to be truly decentralized, the Internet needs to be decentralized first. Once that's done, you could expect to achieve financial freedom that's out of the scope of oppressive governments, central banks, and large corporations alike. Until then, Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies will be subject to the risks of the Internet's centralization for years to come.

What are your thoughts?

Seems impossible to me The internet was not controlled by these large company, in my opinion, yes have a lot of access to almost everything on the internet and even our data.
But they cannot totally control what we are doing on the internet just my opinion and also bitcoin is already established in this kind of system we cannot change it.

[Abiky]

As your argument says so, Bitcoin is also centralized partially in nodes located in China. Apply the same logic/analogy to internet. These partial centralization is only among ISPs, that conform to a gateway to reach other parts of the world. Without them, it would be hard to lay your own cables and build infrastructure that would interconnect all the Bitcoin nodes. And even we are partially 'centralized' because of ISPs purpose to run our network, they still provide us freedom to what we do and connect to on the internet since it is our right, and doesn't really affect the decentralization of the network.

Well, everything depends on the person's point of view. I believe that the public Internet brings a certain level of centralization to Bitcoin, as ISPs have a final say over what we can access. Of course, using TOR, VPN and other privacy solutions helps at some extent with connecting to the Bitcoin blockchain in a decentralized manner. But we all know nothing is perfect. Even Bitcoin's PoW consensus is centralized as Chinese miners dominate a large portion of it. The best way to achieve full-scale decentralization with Bitcoin is to use Satellites or personal networks. It'll be quite difficult to maintain the integrity of the Blockchain by relying on mesh networks, but I'm sure someone will come up with a solution for this.

Bitcoin will continue to carry on regardless of the current conditions of the Internet. But the Internet's dominance from worldwide governments and powerful corporations gives some concerns about how Bitcoin will be able to maintain its decentralization for the foreseeable future. I hope that I'm wrong and Bitcoin would turn out to maintain itself decentralized for a very long time. We could combine different techniques/methods in order to achieve censorship-resistance like never before. Just my opinion

[bitmover]

So explain to me why do we need to stay hidden on the web if we are free? Shouldn't it be the opposite?  
If it was really the case we wouldn't need to hide our ass. Nope, definitely we are not free, you can't say what you want on the web without getting censored, there are rules, there are ISP rules, platforms rules, hosting rules, email providers rule and so on. you can't use the internet without being monitored (doing legal or illegal)

People thinking the internet is decentralized are truly living in their own bubble

I don't agree completely,  but I don't disagree completely neither.

There are some limitations in the internet the way it is, but there is still space for a free web. There are many initiatives like firefox,  bitcoin, bitcointalk,  reddit, 4chan, BitTorrent,  and so many other interesting initiatives

If you want you can just buy a domain and do whatever you want with it.

The internet is more decentralized and more free than the rest of the world and our lives.
Just take a look at the news for example. People are saying whatever they want here in the internet,  but they can't on TV. However,  you have to say what you want in your own platform,  not on someone else's,  like Facebook.

[NotATether]

Well, everything depends on the person's point of view. I believe that the public Internet brings a certain level of centralization to Bitcoin, as ISPs have a final say over what we can access. Of course, using TOR, VPN and other privacy solutions helps at some extent with connecting to the Bitcoin blockchain in a decentralized manner. But we all know nothing is perfect. Even Bitcoin's PoW consensus is centralized as Chinese miners dominate a large portion of it. The best way to achieve full-scale decentralization with Bitcoin is to use Satellites or personal networks. It'll be quite difficult to maintain the integrity of the Blockchain by relying on mesh networks, but I'm sure someone will come up with a solution for this.

Bitcoin will continue to carry on regardless of the current conditions of the Internet. But the Internet's dominance from worldwide governments and powerful corporations gives some concerns about how Bitcoin will be able to maintain its decentralization for the foreseeable future. I hope that I'm wrong and Bitcoin would turn out to maintain itself decentralized for a very long time. We could combine different techniques/methods in order to achieve censorship-resistance like never before. Just my opinion

The more you think about it, the Internet is just a bunch of websites and IP addresses. And Google/Facebook/powerful governments collectively only control a time amount of websites (the size of those websites doesn't matter here). So these companies are not actually centralizing the internet, they are only centralizing their handful of websites versus 1.5 billion websites in existence.

Or maybe by centralized internet you mean IP addresses which are way more numerous than websites. In this case you might have a cause of concern considering the companies I just mentioned own a huge percentage of IPs. But then again, none of them are participating in the bitcoin blockchain, are they?

[Kyraishi]

I think that there are degrees to decentralization that people simply don't realise.

There is no absolute decentralized entity or cryptocurrency. All there is is a spectrum from being entirely centralized money supply to a more distributed, equitable system. Bitcoin is one of the most decentralized currencies in that regard that you can access at this current moment.

As you say, some infrastructure is bound to be centralized one way or another. There is no way around that.

[bettercrypto]

The internet is decentralized. It is literally millions of computers all around the world, no central point of failure. Google, Amazon and Facebook do not control the internet, if that is the extent of your internet usage, I feel sorry that you are missing out on so much more. If those companies were gone tomorrow, the internet would be just fine.
Bitcoin is decentralized, with many nodes holding a copy of the blockchain, no central point of failure.

By your logic, you may as well call it centralized since it only available in one galaxy, so if you can spread to more galaxies, then it will be more decentralized lol.

I think there is only a misinterpretation regarding with internet. First, let us first define what is internet? In my own understanding, it is a place where data stored and shared by millions of computers and gadgets all over the world. How come it will be centralized if people can modify or change something in internet. Maybe, there is some manipulation in other social media networks but there is always so called decentralization. Therefore, bitcoin can have it also since it is connected in internet.

[Eugenar]

The internet is decentralized. It is literally millions of computers all around the world, no central point of failure. Google, Amazon and Facebook do not control the internet, if that is the extent of your internet usage, I feel sorry that you are missing out on so much more. If those companies were gone tomorrow, the internet would be just fine.
Bitcoin is decentralized, with many nodes holding a copy of the blockchain, no central point of failure.

By your logic, you may as well call it centralized since it only available in one galaxy, so if you can spread to more galaxies, then it will be more decentralized lol.

I think there is only a misinterpretation regarding with internet. First, let us first define what is internet? In my own understanding, it is a place where data stored and shared by millions of computers and gadgets all over the world. How come it will be centralized if people can modify or change something in internet. Maybe, there is some manipulation in other social media networks but there is always so called decentralization. Therefore, bitcoin can have it also since it is connected in internet.

I just want to correct one information here, we cannot store data on the internet, internet is the network that connects computers around the wotld, data is then stored to hard drives and data servers offered by different companies. Internet is just merely the platform for connection and it is considered decentralized as no one is owning the internet where cryptocurrency is working. Thus nodes and storages are also stored in different storage in different data servers.

[jtraverso]

I remembered the concept I learned about the subject networking we had before. Internet is live network, no one owns the internet. With that regard, you can have access to the internet if you want to, you just need to trust and pay ISP but they don't really own a portion of the internet. Some people have just funded the transatlantic cables beneath the seabed but if we are to ask the world who owns it, no one. So why could we say internet is centralized then? Because of ISP? No. Because we are the one who could decide what ISP would we want. If they restricts and observe our browsing activity, it is just that, we let them to do so.

I agree with you. Nobody forbids being anonymous on the Internet using a variety of tools. It's just that people allow to restrict them and observe their browsing activity, and then they shout that the Internet is centralized

[LeGaulois]

So explain to me why do we need to stay hidden on the web if we are free? Shouldn't it be the opposite?  
If it was really the case we wouldn't need to hide our ass. Nope, definitely we are not free, you can't say what you want on the web without getting censored, there are rules, there are ISP rules, platforms rules, hosting rules, email providers rule and so on. you can't use the internet without being monitored (doing legal or illegal)

People thinking the internet is decentralized are truly living in their own bubble

I don't agree completely,  but I don't disagree completely neither.

There are some limitations in the internet the way it is, but there is still space for a free web. There are many initiatives like firefox,  bitcoin, bitcointalk,  reddit, 4chan, BitTorrent,  and so many other interesting initiatives

If you want you can just buy a domain and do whatever you want with it.

The internet is more decentralized and more free than the rest of the world and our lives.
Just take a look at the news for example. People are saying whatever they want here in the internet,  but they can't on TV. However,  you have to say what you want in your own platform,  not on someone else's,  like Facebook.

This is not the decentralization dude, let me explain.

If you want you can just buy a domain and do whatever you want with it.

Nope, it's a myth, you can't do whatever you want with a domain name (whatever country you live in) You have to obey to your domain registrar and ICANN. It's already 2 middlemen to obey and you didn't even start to host your website. Then you have to obey the web hosting AUP, and so on...

Firefox, Reddit and Bitcointalk are centralized.
Because Firefox advertises to respect privacy, which is debatable at some points, it doesn't mean the product is decentralized. Platforms like Reddit and Bitcointalk are far to be decentralized. It's not because the rules claim you can say whatever you want, which is debatable at some point again, that you're on a decentralized platform. The same goes for 4Chan, it's not because you can post anonymously that it's decentralized

[salty]

As your argument says so, Bitcoin is also centralized partially in nodes located in China. Apply the same logic/analogy to internet. These partial centralization is only among ISPs, that conform to a gateway to reach other parts of the world. Without them, it would be hard to lay your own cables and build infrastructure that would interconnect all the Bitcoin nodes. And even we are partially 'centralized' because of ISPs purpose to run our network, they still provide us freedom to what we do and connect to on the internet since it is our right, and doesn't really affect the decentralization of the network.

Well, everything depends on the person's point of view. I believe that the public Internet brings a certain level of centralization to Bitcoin, as ISPs have a final say over what we can access. Of course, using TOR, VPN and other privacy solutions helps at some extent with connecting to the Bitcoin blockchain in a decentralized manner. But we all know nothing is perfect. Even Bitcoin's PoW consensus is centralized as Chinese miners dominate a large portion of it. The best way to achieve full-scale decentralization with Bitcoin is to use Satellites or personal networks. It'll be quite difficult to maintain the integrity of the Blockchain by relying on mesh networks, but I'm sure someone will come up with a solution for this.

Bitcoin will continue to carry on regardless of the current conditions of the Internet. But the Internet's dominance from worldwide governments and powerful corporations gives some concerns about how Bitcoin will be able to maintain its decentralization for the foreseeable future. I hope that I'm wrong and Bitcoin would turn out to maintain itself decentralized for a very long time. We could combine different techniques/methods in order to achieve censorship-resistance like never before. Just my opinion

Let's think about how to decentralize the Internet.In any case, the Internet will not disappear, and the fact that I am engaged in bitcoin mining is unlikely to know my provider.It is not physically possible to build a decentralized Internet.And does it even make sense?Perhaps not exactly this but clearly improving the Internet is engaged in this company :https://noia.network

[Abiky]

I think that there are degrees to decentralization that people simply don't realise.

There is no absolute decentralized entity or cryptocurrency. All there is is a spectrum from being entirely centralized money supply to a more distributed, equitable system. Bitcoin is one of the most decentralized currencies in that regard that you can access at this current moment.

As you say, some infrastructure is bound to be centralized one way or another. There is no way around that.

That's my point. Bitcoin could be decentralized by design, but the infrastructure used for Blockchain communication worldwide is not. The public Internet, is largely controlled by governments and ISPs alike. Of course, we got Tor, i2p and other alternative networks. But these same networks depend on the main Internet in some way (their binaries, source code, and everything lives on the public Internet itself). In the event governments decide to put an end to these alternative networks, they can easily do so by restricting people from downloading these alternative network's binary files. I think that Bitcoin would do better if it was based on some sort of mesh network, or personal area network (like Bluetooth). I even heard the possibility of sending Bitcoin through radio waves.

A better term for Bitcoin is "distributed" than "decentralized" because the way it works with the current Internet infrastructure. Until the Internet becomes owned by the people (not ISPs or governments), there will always exist that single point of failure which could put the entire Bitcoin network at risk. I hope that I'm wrong and Bitcoin would turn out to become decentralized over time. Otherwise, we'll be able to experience a decay in Bitcoin's decentralization as big companies (Blockstream & ISP companies), businesses (Binance & Coinbase), and big miners (Bitmain) take the lead in the cryptocurrency's direction within the mainstream world.

Nonetheless, it seems to me that "ZeroNet" will finally be able to serve as a "decentralized gateway" to the Bitcoin blockchain. But being relatively new, it's not as popular as other networks such as Tor and i2p. This, combined with locally-owned networks everyday people could make Bitcoin truly censorship resistant as we know it. Just my thoughts

[Artemis3]

Satoshi's invention of a revolutionary form of money that would give people control over their funds back in 2009 (Bitcoin), turned out to be a success. While the cryptocurrency's PoW consensus is partially centralized (mostly dominated by the Chinese), it has a wide distribution of nodes all across the globe. Theoretically speaking, Bitcoin is decentralized where anyone can set up a node to support the Blockchain. With enough capital, it's possible to secure Bitcoin in our homes with sophisticated ASIC machines too.

So far, many people believe that Bitcoin is truly decentralized as "no one" controls it. But the harsh reality is that every single cryptocurrency and Blockchain network depends on the Internet to survive. It's no secret that in today's world, big companies like Google, Facebook, and even Amazon control the Internet. On the other hand, ISPs (Internet Service Providers) have a final say over what people can view or host using the Internet. This means that Internet is centralized, greatly defeating the purpose of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies of eliminating the middleman.

For Bitcoin to be truly decentralized, the Internet needs to be decentralized first. Once that's done, you could expect to achieve financial freedom that's out of the scope of oppressive governments, central banks, and large corporations alike. Until then, Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies will be subject to the risks of the Internet's centralization for years to come.

What are your thoughts?

This is the reason why the idea of a network inside a network was done. Some call it "deep" but its just another network, that can run on top of internet without being checked, controlled or blocked. The whole point these networks its to break from these.

Internet topology is actually decentralized, it was made so it could withstand nuclear attacks. You cannot destroy something in particular to stop it, tho the lazy way things have been running lately actually could cause major disruption, to those who weren't ready (ie. already using Tor, etc). Censor resistance is one way to view it, neither State nor private entities should be controlling you.

Something on internet could some better centralization, DNS for starters. While not strictly necessary, few people know the IP number of some basic sites, in case DNS goes haywire. So you could start replacing that by not using the "main" DNS (alternatives do exist). And so on we could go with each of the elements.

If things go really bad, Bitcoin could go "deep", and it still would work running in a network that runs safe on top of the unsafe network. This scenario is already improbable on a worldwide level, its possible in some countries. A more proper description is just running nodes and pools as tor hidden services or their equivalent in similar networks (freenode, etc). But this is a worst case scenario which seems to have already been overcome. Still, there ARE nodes running in there...

Can you use internet without Google? Yes you can. It takes discipline but you can completely get rid of Google from your life. Centralized social networks are even easier, its only the stubborn contacts that won't just use decentralized alternatives.

[Asmonist]

Well that's probably one of the little flaws or risks. Internet existed long ago before bitcoin arrived. Bitcoin is actually born through internet. For now it really just being part of the system and we cannot deny the fact that we are really under the internet era. They have established it already and there are lots of factors to consider to decentralized internet. But I think there are geniuses who can think of ways to make it happen.

[gentlemand]

I think this is something people should be a little more conscious of.

In places where BTC could be most needed people may wind up with a useless string of characters unless they find a way to leave. Governments seem to be getting bolder with this as well.

Look at Kashmir. There's been an absolute internet blackout since August, not even landlines or cable TV are open. Eritrea is extremely blackout happy too as are a few other countries.

In Africa in particular there is no alternative infrastructure. There might 1 or 2 mobile internet networks. If they get one dirty phone call from the secret police the entire country vanishes from the map.

[carlzec]

A problem for central internet blockchain. But how to create a similar structure. Everybody gonna put a transmitter on the roof of his house? So we can have a decentralized internet. An interesting development, but not impossible.

[fiulpro]

Okay , it might seem a little reasonable but one should understand that internet yes it might make Bitcoins centralized till an extent but that is only 1-3% .
Also at the same time internet needs to be centralized , a decentralized internet won't work , we need someone to handle all the operations , all the work , all the management and all , handle accusations there is just so many , if internet was completely centralized it would have been another thing , internet itself cannot control what internet does

[chaoscoinz]

Satoshi's invention of a revolutionary form of money that would give people control over their funds back in 2009 (Bitcoin), turned out to be a success. While the cryptocurrency's PoW consensus is partially centralized (mostly dominated by the Chinese), it has a wide distribution of nodes all across the globe. Theoretically speaking, Bitcoin is decentralized where anyone can set up a node to support the Blockchain. With enough capital, it's possible to secure Bitcoin in our homes with sophisticated ASIC machines too.

So far, many people believe that Bitcoin is truly decentralized as "no one" controls it. But the harsh reality is that every single cryptocurrency and Blockchain network depends on the Internet to survive. It's no secret that in today's world, big companies like Google, Facebook, and even Amazon control the Internet. On the other hand, ISPs (Internet Service Providers) have a final say over what people can view or host using the Internet. This means that Internet is centralized, greatly defeating the purpose of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies of eliminating the middleman.

For Bitcoin to be truly decentralized, the Internet needs to be decentralized first. Once that's done, you could expect to achieve financial freedom that's out of the scope of oppressive governments, central banks, and large corporations alike. Until then, Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies will be subject to the risks of the Internet's centralization for years to come.

What are your thoughts?

"With enough capital, it's possible to secure Bitcoin in our homes with sophisticated ASIC machines too"

If this is the case then what makes it truly revolutionary? It almost Seem like another pay wall to block people and exercise centralized control no (not intentionally)? I don't think that the internet will ever be completely decentralized, nor will the proof of work consensus algorithm be needed within the future. Proof of work is starting to look more and more like just a working proof of concept for the blockchain, demonstrating the capabilities of the Bitcoin network. it was good at the time and created a whole world wide movement, but I don't think Satoshi meant for it to last forever, why else would the code be open source, if not to be upgraded and re-written?
  instead there should be a middle-ground where decentralization and centralization meet, as not to cancel each other out, but work in harmony. Freedom without order is Anarchy, while order without freedom is Tyranny.