Gifting satoshis to future generations

[fillippone]

Today I found on medium this nice article by Federico Tenga about long term storing of bitcoin to be gifted to future generations.
 There are a few interesting points to be considered, some of them I completely overlooked while thinking about this very topic:

So, have a read:

Gifting satoshis to future generations

Recently I’ve been tasked to gift some satoshis to a newborn baby, who is supposed to redeem them when he grows up, about 18 years from now. The challenge was trickier than originally expected, as there are many different ways to store bitcoin, each one with different trade-offs, and at the same time it’s hard to predict the state of the Bitcoin industry two decades into the future.

Hardware compatibility doesn’t age well

After a few thoughts he came with this solution:



Read the whole article here:

Gifting satoshis to future generations

He has an (inactive) account here on Bitcointalk, maybe if you have enough comment we can summon him back to the forum!

[1714006267]

1714006267

[1714006267]

1714006267

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I found this quote from the article to be particularly interesting:

If, for example, someone received today a floppy disk or a Sony minidisk from the ’90s, it would be very hard to find a device able to read it now. It is likely that the same problem will happen with USB sticks, so using a hardware wallet from 2019 may end up requiring multiple adapters to bridge between different communication standards.

And it made me wonder whether in 18 years, when the gift recipient has grown up, bitcoin will be as popular or as relevant.  It's a technology that might not age well in that amount of time--and I don't get the feeling that it's going to disappear or anything like that, but you wouldn't expect USB drives to disappear either.  People expect long-term growth from bitcoin, but the truth of the matter is that none of us knows what's going to happen in crypto.

Having said that, I think it's a fantastic idea to put aside some satoshis or whatever amount of bitcoin would be appropriate for a newborn.  It's a cool gift if nothing else.

[kryptqnick]

Wow, I really enjoyed reading thr article. It's an interesting question with technologies and methods of storing data. I intend to leave some BTC to my yet unborn children, but I opt to keep up with the trends and transfer money from time to time when something gets outdated. It's sad that with bitcoin we have so many questions compared to fiat bank accounts. People regularly lock money for their newborns in banks that have been around for a long while, right? Surely, it does not have any guarantees, but it's just that bitcoin is not tested with time yet, so its way harder to predict what will happen.

[qiwoman2]

I am an oldie, a baby boomer actually and that is why I am more passionate about this technology than even some of the younger people who are kind of taking it too much for granted. I wish we had this tech breakthrough when I was young, my whole life could have been so different. It's an exciting time to be alive and this is also my plan. To leave different amounts of Bitcoin in wallets for all the babies and children in my family and also for others as well, and trying to educate more members of my family to hold and even use Bitcoin. My goal is to get Bitcoin knowledge and satoshi to at least 500 people before I leave this planet, then I won't feel my life here as being a waste. Knowledge and self-worth are the two great gifts we can give future generations and also the satoshis of course. 

[betty11]

It's nice, as long as the world financial sector requires a new direction, then gifting some Satoshi to a new born baby today will be a huge gold in the future, when the world finally shift attention to the new digital gold. I hope the gift is well preserved.

[fillippone]

<…>

And it made me wonder whether in 18 years, when the gift recipient has grown up, bitcoin will be as popular or as relevant.  It's a technology that might not age well in that amount of time--and I don't get the feeling that it's going to disappear or anything like that, <…>

Nobody knows, every day Bitcoin is running, the irrelevant scenario fades a little bit. If this scenario materialise, also your present will be irrelevant, but on the opposite scenario this could be a problem. If we are in this forum and we are reading this very article, it is clear which scenario we all foresee.

but you wouldn't expect USB drives to disappear either. 

I can think many ways USB can disappear. I extracted the above image for a reason. Anyway this article made me consider paper wallet a a way to prevent technological obsolescence, something I didn’t think about, actually.

Having said that, I think it's a fantastic idea to put aside some satoshis or whatever amount of bitcoin would be appropriate for a newborn.  It's a cool gift if nothing else.

I think this is the main take-away of the article! Stash sats, not only for you, but also for your beloved ones.

[o_e_l_e_o]

It's an interesting article and experiment, but there are certainly some pretty big flaws in his arguments.

If, for example, someone received today a floppy disk or a Sony minidisk from the ’90s, it would be very hard to find a device able to read it now.

This is nonsense. With Amazon Prime and 10 bucks, I can have a floppy disk drive delivered to my door within 24 hours. With a car and a local computer store, I can get one within the hour. And this is a technology with is 50 years old and from a time when some houses had a single computer, maybe. We now live in time where every person, let alone every house, has multiple devices using USB - computers and all their peripherals, TVs, games consoles and peripherals, mobile phones, chargers, power banks, cars, etc. There is no way you are going to have any problem using a USB device in 20 years' time.

possibly requiring the beneficiary to derive manually from the seed in order to find the keys where the coins are

Again, although wallets may move on from BIP44 or BIP84, support for these will always exist. There is no way in 20 years people will have to manually derive these keys. There are far too many sites, repositories, programs, etc. out there. Only a complete failure of the internet would make every single one of these inaccessible.

If storing coins for 20 years I would also choose something like steel engraving, but rather because I wouldn't want to trust that the digital hardware wasn't going to degrade in that time rather than the reasons above.

[NeuroticFish]

A paper wallet doesn't really need any special tech. And a paper wallet + a time locked transaction towards that address already does the job.
I don't know, do more complicated solutions make the blogs or newspapers look more interesting maybe?

[fillippone]

It's an interesting article and experiment, but there are certainly some pretty big flaws in his arguments.

If, for example, someone received today a floppy disk or a Sony minidisk from the ’90s, it would be very hard to find a device able to read it now.

This is nonsense. With Amazon Prime and 10 bucks, I can have a floppy disk drive delivered to my door within 24 hours. With a car and a local computer store, I can get one within the hour. And this is a technology with is 50 years old and from a time when some houses had a single computer, maybe. We now live in time where every person, let alone every house, has multiple devices using USB - computers and all their peripherals, TVs, games consoles and peripherals, mobile phones, chargers, power banks, cars, etc. There is no way you are going to have any problem using a USB device in 20 years' time.

possibly requiring the beneficiary to derive manually from the seed in order to find the keys where the coins are

Again, although wallets may move on from BIP44 or BIP84, support for these will always exist. There is no way in 20 years people will have to manually derive these keys. There are far too many sites, repositories, programs, etc. out there. Only a complete failure of the internet would make every single one of these inaccessible.

If storing coins for 20 years I would also choose something like steel engraving, but rather because I wouldn't want to trust that the digital hardware wasn't going to degrade in that time rather than the reasons above.

You are absolutely right, but also you have to consider you are giving this to a complete “unknown person”, with an unknown set of skills. Of course I think We both can figure out how to connect a 5 1/4 floppy disk to almost any device, or find the correct derivation or standard for any key, but you have to consider he probably wanted to keep things as simple as possible to deal with non technical person.

[fillippone]

A paper wallet doesn't really need any special tech. And a paper wallet + a time locked transaction towards that address already does the job.
I don't know, do more complicated solutions make the blogs or newspapers look more interesting maybe?

This is a sort of paper wallet.
A paper wallet doesn’t mean the wallet is made of paper. Paper wallet, in a broader sense, means you are storing the private key in “plain text” or some very simple encoding (this is subject of the article).
Time locked transactions are irrelevant on the case, as this is a gift, and you want the Satoshi to be in the immediate availability of the recipient (she could spend the Satoshi tomorrow, if she wants).

[MarioV]

I found this quote from the article to be particularly interesting:

If, for example, someone received today a floppy disk or a Sony minidisk from the ’90s, it would be very hard to find a device able to read it now. It is likely that the same problem will happen with USB sticks, so using a hardware wallet from 2019 may end up requiring multiple adapters to bridge between different communication standards.

I too am terrified of the media for storing information, I have always had it: in the world of information technology there are many things that have been lost due to the means of conservation/storage rather than the format.
I always want to make a comparison with the writings on papyrus of 2000 years ago still preserved compared to CDs that lose their storage capacity well before than 100 years.
So I am afraid that many bitcoins will not be equally accessible in many years due to computer obsolescence.
Maybe the good old plasticizer paper wallet reduces this risk? But it certainly does not cancel it.

[rdluffy]

Wow, interesting subject to think and talk

If you think, USB can be aged in 18 years from now for example, and you can find another solution to keep the BTC, and It's essential to updating the hardware or technology in some years, not hard, because there is always a long time for transictions like floppy disks to cd.....cd to dvd....dvd to flash drives, it's dumb to no updating your files with the recent medias available

But a thing to consider, in 18years, BTC will still remain relevant?

[NeuroticFish]

This is a paper wallet.
A paper wallet doesn’t mean the wallet is made of paper. Paper wallet means you are storing the provate key in “plain text” or some very simple encoding (this is subject of the article).
Time locked transactions are irrelevant on the case, as this is a gift, and you want the Satoshi to be in the immediate availability of the recipient (she could spend the Satoshi tomorrow, if she wants).

The timelock is indeed optional, it's useful only if the sender wants to have the money spent only after a certain age.
And I meant paper wallet .. made of paper. I have to admit that this capsule is one of the simplest of the "complicated approaches", but I just don't see the reason for using (crypto)steel.

[stompix]

It's an interesting article and experiment, but there are certainly some pretty big flaws in his arguments.

If, for example, someone received today a floppy disk or a Sony minidisk from the ’90s, it would be very hard to find a device able to read it now.

This is nonsense. With Amazon Prime and 10 bucks, I can have a floppy disk drive delivered to my door within 24 hours.

When I read that quote I was preparing to say the same...
And it's not only about floppy disks, got 40$? You can get a turntablewith built-in stereo.
Cassettes, that's even easier...

Actually, with the amazing progress in technology, we're able to make all the things that went out of use cheaper and more affordable than they were when they were used by millions. So this is quite a false problem....

You are absolutely right, but also you have to consider you are giving this to a complete “unknown person”, with an unknown set of skills. Of course I think We both can figure out how to connect a 5 1/4 floppy disk to almost any device, or find the correct derivation or standard for any key, but you have to consider he probably wanted to keep things as simple as possible to deal with non technical person.

You plug the USB adaptor into the USB slot....
If that is rocket science....

[fillippone]

You plug the USB adaptor into the USB slot....
If that is rocket science....

I was thinking connecting to an iPad, actually.
What if there are no usb slot in 20 years? I cannot rule out this possibility.

[stompix]

What if there are no usb slot in 20 years? I cannot rule out this possibility.

You will simply plug the floppy disk adapter in the matrix /tesla /ohmibod whatever their name will be in 20 years slot 
That's what adapters are for!

[o_e_l_e_o]

And I meant paper wallet .. made of paper.

I'd feel much more comfortable using steel than paper for 20 years. Protection from fire, water, rot, mold, and so forth. Hell, even just protection from the ink fading.

What if there are no usb slot in 20 years? I cannot rule out this possibility.

Then adapters will be ubiquitous. There is far too much data stored on USB compatible devices across the world that if some new standard was to replace it there would be no way to convert between the two.

[MarioV]

You plug the USB adaptor into the USB slot....
If that is rocket science....

I was thinking connecting to an iPad, actually.
What if there are no usb slot in 20 years? I cannot rule out this possibility.

Exactly. Another example: how many CD players are still inside modern computer devices? And we're not talking about past ages...

Code:

Paper wallets like ancient papyrus?

[fillippone]

What if there are no usb slot in 20 years? I cannot rule out this possibility.

You will simply plug the floppy disk adapter in the matrix /tesla /ohmibod whatever their name will be in 20 years slot 
That's what adapters are for!

I really don’t know.
If you look at the image in the OP post the USB stick seems functional.
Maybe the author only wanted to avoid this scenario.  Or keep really simple, as said. That was his choice, not mine.
I only noted that he scrapped the need to rely on an hypothesis (the possibility to use an USB stick) going to the simplest yet more reliable form of storage.

[stompix]

I really don’t know.
If you look at the image in the OP post the USB stick seems functional.
Maybe the author only wanted to avoid this scenario.  Or keep really simple, as said. That was his choice, not mine.
I only noted that he scrapped the need to rely on an hypothesis (the possibility to use an USB stick) going to the simplest yet more reliable form of storage.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't use a USB stick either but not because of the fear I won't be able to read it.
Just as you said, to keep things simple, and I would trust more steel than data on a usb stick.

But the fear that he is not going to be able to read it or there will be no equipment left is exaggerated.
If we right now can order a VHS player, cd player, cassette player with a click of a button then USB adaptors are safe for at least half a century.

Exactly. Another example: how many CD players are still inside modern computer devices? And we're not talking about past ages...

And you can't find one to buy? Walmart has plenty.
Again it's a fake problem.