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Author Topic: Is it tripple bottom?  (Read 4025 times)
Jonathan Ryan Owens
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November 20, 2011, 11:54:38 AM
 #21

It's 2.37 now - so your prediction did not work.

..

Yet..

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November 20, 2011, 11:59:03 AM
 #22

Is it bottom? No.

Is it double bottom? No.

Is it triple bottom? Seems no.

Is it quadruple bottom? Not likely.

Is it bottomless? Perhaps.

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November 20, 2011, 12:15:54 PM
 #23

It's 2.37 now - so your prediction did not work.

..

Yet..


You cannot make the time to go back to the line you drown.
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November 20, 2011, 12:24:55 PM
 #24

Is it bottom? No.

Is it double bottom? No.

Is it triple bottom? Seems no.

Is it quadruple bottom? Not likely.

Is it bottomless? Perhaps.


Seems like you a shorting bitcoins yourself.

If this is true, I am not sure this is right, as owner of bitcoinica.

Can you clarify, please?

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November 20, 2011, 12:28:45 PM
 #25

Is it bottom? No.

Is it double bottom? No.

Is it triple bottom? Seems no.

Is it quadruple bottom? Not likely.

Is it bottomless? Perhaps.


Seems like you a shorting bitcoins yourself.

If this is true, I am not sure this is right, as owner of bitcoinica.

Can you clarify, please?


I don't trade myself. I posted this just for fun.

I was having a 300 BTC long position, but liquidated recently. I have never had any position over 300 BTC.

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November 20, 2011, 12:31:27 PM
 #26

Cool. Thanks so much for the clarification.

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Always do your own due diligence & consult your financial advisor. Never invest unless you can afford to lose your entire investment.

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November 20, 2011, 12:36:07 PM
 #27

Cool. Thanks so much for the clarification.

Hey, I'm not like some evil broker. Whatever things I post regarding Bitcoinica's trading activity or whatsoever, must be from the past (already hedged orders and liquidated positions). It's also morally incorrect (and sometimes illegal) to read customers' orders and trade at the same time.

I have a rule for myself (and I hope other exchanges' owners can follow):

Every time after seeing customers' orders, intentionally or unintentionally, refrain from trading or discussing them publicly for 24 hours.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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November 20, 2011, 01:06:43 PM
 #28

Cool. Thanks so much for the clarification.

Hey, I'm not like some evil broker. Whatever things I post regarding Bitcoinica's trading activity or whatsoever, must be from the past (already hedged orders and liquidated positions). It's also morally incorrect (and sometimes illegal) to read customers' orders and trade at the same time.

I have a rule for myself (and I hope other exchanges' owners can follow):

Every time after seeing customers' orders, intentionally or unintentionally, refrain from trading or discussing them publicly for 24 hours.

Great. I would love to see this statement also from MtGox and other exchanges.

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Always do your own due diligence & consult your financial advisor. Never invest unless you can afford to lose your entire investment.

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November 20, 2011, 01:27:24 PM
 #29

Cool. Thanks so much for the clarification.

Hey, I'm not like some evil broker. Whatever things I post regarding Bitcoinica's trading activity or whatsoever, must be from the past (already hedged orders and liquidated positions). It's also morally incorrect (and sometimes illegal) to read customers' orders and trade at the same time.

I have a rule for myself (and I hope other exchanges' owners can follow):

Every time after seeing customers' orders, intentionally or unintentionally, refrain from trading or discussing them publicly for 24 hours.

The temptation to do this surely must be great though. I find it worrying that the operators of dark-pool trading platforms like bitcoinica (perhaps ONLY bitcoinica) are privy to the collective trade decisions of it's users when everyone else is not. Especially when these businesses are not subject to the stringent external auditing processes as real world institutions.

I know you have stated that you promise not to trade based on this information, but it is not really good enough for me because a promise is hardly a rock solid guarantee. How can we be sure you are telling the truth, and are not going to trade against your clients? Trust is just not enough, even though you seem like a decent guy zhou.

Given the open-source spirit of bitcoin, I think it would only be right to open your order books the same way mtgox and the other exchanges do. I know you said that this would leave bitcoinica open to manipulation, but my (admittedly poor) understanding of game theory is that as long as everyone has access to the information, it would be no more problematic than it is now. What do you think about this?

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November 20, 2011, 01:37:38 PM
 #30

Cool. Thanks so much for the clarification.

Hey, I'm not like some evil broker. Whatever things I post regarding Bitcoinica's trading activity or whatsoever, must be from the past (already hedged orders and liquidated positions). It's also morally incorrect (and sometimes illegal) to read customers' orders and trade at the same time.

I have a rule for myself (and I hope other exchanges' owners can follow):

Every time after seeing customers' orders, intentionally or unintentionally, refrain from trading or discussing them publicly for 24 hours.

The temptation to do this surely must be great though. I find it worrying that the operators of dark-pool trading platforms like bitcoinica (perhaps ONLY bitcoinica) are privy to the collective trade decisions of it's users when everyone else is not. Especially when these businesses are not subject to the stringent external auditing processes as real world institutions.

I know you have stated that you promise not to trade based on this information, but it is not really good enough for me because a promise is hardly a rock solid guarantee. How can we be sure you are telling the truth, and are not going to trade against your clients? Trust is just not enough, even though you seem like a decent guy zhou.

Given the open-source spirit of bitcoin, I think it would only be right to open your order books the same way mtgox and the other exchanges do. I know you said that this would leave bitcoinica open to manipulation, but my (admittedly poor) understanding of game theory is that as long as everyone has access to the information, it would be no more problematic than it is now. What do you think about this?

It's not as if the folks at MtGox still couldn't get an advantage in trading.  They know how much bitcoin and USD is sitting around off the order books.
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November 20, 2011, 01:53:27 PM
 #31

Cool. Thanks so much for the clarification.

Hey, I'm not like some evil broker. Whatever things I post regarding Bitcoinica's trading activity or whatsoever, must be from the past (already hedged orders and liquidated positions). It's also morally incorrect (and sometimes illegal) to read customers' orders and trade at the same time.

I have a rule for myself (and I hope other exchanges' owners can follow):

Every time after seeing customers' orders, intentionally or unintentionally, refrain from trading or discussing them publicly for 24 hours.

The temptation to do this surely must be great though. I find it worrying that the operators of dark-pool trading platforms like bitcoinica (perhaps ONLY bitcoinica) are privy to the collective trade decisions of it's users when everyone else is not. Especially when these businesses are not subject to the stringent external auditing processes as real world institutions.

I know you have stated that you promise not to trade based on this information, but it is not really good enough for me because a promise is hardly a rock solid guarantee. How can we be sure you are telling the truth, and are not going to trade against your clients? Trust is just not enough, even though you seem like a decent guy zhou.

Given the open-source spirit of bitcoin, I think it would only be right to open your order books the same way mtgox and the other exchanges do. I know you said that this would leave bitcoinica open to manipulation, but my (admittedly poor) understanding of game theory is that as long as everyone has access to the information, it would be no more problematic than it is now. What do you think about this?

Running the stops will be far more easier if we open our order books. I have seen stop orders that can be triggered with less than $3,000 and potential rise/fall of $0.1 or more.

I know it's not good to hide trading information, but people need some kind of dark pools to reduce their market impact. The only "profitable" and viable way for me to trade against my clients is to run the stops myself. Not just the stop orders, but also the potential forced liquidations. Even if I open Bitcoinica's order book, I still have more information than everyone else unless I tell you their liquidation points.

Whether I make the limit orders, or both limit and stop orders available publicly, I still have more information. And trust me, based on my observation (not experience), running forced liquidations is more profitable than the stops.

I just don't understand, if people can trust me with tens of thousands of dollars, why not the simple promise of not to trade against them? There are easier ways to extract profits from clients that a market maker can do, such as manipulating the prices and spreads, creating artificial spikes or even deducting their account balance secretly. These things have never happened, and will never happen under my hands!

A centralized platform is already based on trust, so let's just face it. In my opinion, hiding Bitcoinica's order book is better for the community overall, since Bitcoinica is a market maker that takes a small risk before hedging, not an exchange that is never responsible for any trade (and trade reversals).

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November 20, 2011, 07:33:05 PM
 #32

None of these exchanges have to follow any rules... b/c there are none.  That's why we have the SEC, and US Govt.  If you don't like it, then maybe bitcoin isn't for you.... it's kinda the point that there are no rules and it's unregulated.

I encourage morals, but unfortunately, we're in the wild west.  If you want rules, go join Solidcoin's centralized currency...

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November 20, 2011, 09:41:35 PM
 #33

@zhou: Thank you for the concise reply to my concerns. Having bitcoinica around still worries the heck out of me, but I am very glad it is you who is running it. You seem like a trustworthy guy. I hope you do not let us all down. Since you won't open your order books (maybe for good reason) then would you consent at some stage to third party auditing of your accounts and your platform?

None of these exchanges have to follow any rules... b/c there are none.  That's why we have the SEC, and US Govt.  If you don't like it, then maybe bitcoin isn't for you.... it's kinda the point that there are no rules and it's unregulated.

I encourage morals, but unfortunately, we're in the wild west.  If you want rules, go join Solidcoin's centralized currency...

Libertarian nonsense. I don't HAVE to wear clothes when I go out in the snow, but do you think maybe I should? Similarly there is nothing stoping me from wiping my ass with poison ivy, but do you think that would be a wise thing to do? Please inform yourself before posting your vacuous libertard claptrap.. here, I'll help that process along:

1) Bitcoinica is not an exchange.

2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_shop_(stock_market)

3) Bitcoin is not 'unregulated', the supply of bitcoin is very carefully regulated by the network as a whole, rather than self interested elites. You are mixing up deregulation with decentralization.

4) The bitcoin network does have rules - I cannot alter the blockchain in a way that the rest of the network does not agree with.

5) Leveraged margin trading is EXTREMELY risky, not just for the end user, but for all of the participants in the market. You cannot just open an account like this in the US without holding professional qualifications in economics/business, and for good reason. I am ALL for a decentralized currency, nowhere did I say I 'don't like it'. Read my post again if you failed to understand my concerns about bitcoinica. I assure you they are justified.

6) Just because we don't HAVE to follow well established financial 'rules' does not mean we SHOULD not. Some of them are archaic and outdated, others are VERY important. Financial institutions and market makers are audited carefully in real world finance due to the many concerns surrounding the fact they have more information available to them and can use this information to bet against their clients. Zhou has access to the stop/limit positions and liquidation points of all his clients. He can use this to get a better understanding of the market than the rest of us can, or he can move the price with his own capital on MtGox to force liquidation of his clients. He would know exactly how much would be required to do this.

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November 20, 2011, 09:51:54 PM
 #34

@zhou: Thank you for the concise reply to my concerns. Having bitcoinica around still worries the heck out of me, but I am very glad it is you who is running it. You seem like a trustworthy guy. I hope you do not let us all down. Since you won't open your order books (maybe for good reason) then would you consent at some stage to third party auditing of your accounts and your platform?

None of these exchanges have to follow any rules... b/c there are none.  That's why we have the SEC, and US Govt.  If you don't like it, then maybe bitcoin isn't for you.... it's kinda the point that there are no rules and it's unregulated.

I encourage morals, but unfortunately, we're in the wild west.  If you want rules, go join Solidcoin's centralized currency...

Libertarian nonsense. I don't HAVE to wear clothes when I go out in the snow, but do you think maybe I should? Similarly there is nothing stoping me from wiping my ass with poison ivy, but do you think that would be a wise thing to do? Please inform yourself. Here, I'll help that process along:

1) Bitcoinica is not an exchange.

2) Bitcoin is not unregulated, it is regulated by the network as a whole. You are mixing up unregulation with decentralization. And it does have rules - I cannot alter the blockchain in a way that the rest of the network does not agree with.

3) Leveraged margin trading is EXTREMELY risky, not just for the end user, but for all of the participants in the market. You cannot just open an account like this in the US without holding professional qualifications in economics/business, and for good reason. I am ALL for a decentralized currency, nowhere did I say I 'don't like it'. Read my post again if you failed to understand my concerns about bitcoinica. I assure you they are justified.

4) Just because we don't HAVE to follow well established financial 'rules' does not mean we SHOULD not. Some of them are archaic and outdated, others are VERY important. Financial institutions and market makers are audited carefully in real world finance due to the many concerns surrounding the fact they have more information available to them and can use this information to bet against their. Zhou has access to the stop/limit positions and liquidation points of all his clients. He can use this to get a better understanding of the market than the rest of us can, or he can move the price with his own capital on MtGox to force liquidation of his clients. He would know exactly how much would be required to do this.

So please inform yourself a little better before posting your vacuous libertard claptrap.

I wish people would stop using words like libtard or libertard (opposite ends of the political spectrum). Both are very offensive terms and I have a relative who suffers from downsyndrome. He couldn't chose that he was born that way, he just was. These terms are as offensive if not more than any other insult I could possibly think of due to its nature. My cousin with downs is a very happy person but can also be very difficult to deal with and understand. Does this mean that they deserve to be treated as less than human? Absolutely not. This is the first time I have seen you use such a term but Jonathan Ryan Owens always uses it and quite frankly I have had enough. If you had a son or daughter with the condition I bet you would not be so quick to use that terminology.
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November 20, 2011, 09:56:51 PM
 #35

@zhou: Thank you for the concise reply to my concerns. Having bitcoinica around still worries the heck out of me, but I am very glad it is you who is running it. You seem like a trustworthy guy. I hope you do not let us all down. Since you won't open your order books (maybe for good reason) then would you consent at some stage to third party auditing of your accounts and your platform?

None of these exchanges have to follow any rules... b/c there are none.  That's why we have the SEC, and US Govt.  If you don't like it, then maybe bitcoin isn't for you.... it's kinda the point that there are no rules and it's unregulated.

I encourage morals, but unfortunately, we're in the wild west.  If you want rules, go join Solidcoin's centralized currency...

Libertarian nonsense. I don't HAVE to wear clothes when I go out in the snow, but do you think maybe I should? Similarly there is nothing stoping me from wiping my ass with poison ivy, but do you think that would be a wise thing to do? Please inform yourself. Here, I'll help that process along:

1) Bitcoinica is not an exchange.

2) Bitcoin is not unregulated, it is regulated by the network as a whole. You are mixing up unregulation with decentralization. And it does have rules - I cannot alter the blockchain in a way that the rest of the network does not agree with.

3) Leveraged margin trading is EXTREMELY risky, not just for the end user, but for all of the participants in the market. You cannot just open an account like this in the US without holding professional qualifications in economics/business, and for good reason. I am ALL for a decentralized currency, nowhere did I say I 'don't like it'. Read my post again if you failed to understand my concerns about bitcoinica. I assure you they are justified.

4) Just because we don't HAVE to follow well established financial 'rules' does not mean we SHOULD not. Some of them are archaic and outdated, others are VERY important. Financial institutions and market makers are audited carefully in real world finance due to the many concerns surrounding the fact they have more information available to them and can use this information to bet against their. Zhou has access to the stop/limit positions and liquidation points of all his clients. He can use this to get a better understanding of the market than the rest of us can, or he can move the price with his own capital on MtGox to force liquidation of his clients. He would know exactly how much would be required to do this.

So please inform yourself a little better before posting your vacuous libertard claptrap.

I wish people would stop using words like libtard or libertard (opposite ends of the political spectrum). Both are very offensive terms and I have a relative who suffers from downsyndrome. He couldn't chose that he was born that way, he just was. These terms are as offensive if not more than any other insult I could possibly think of due to its nature. My cousin with downs is a very happy person but can also be very difficult to deal with and understand. Does this mean that they deserve to be treated as less than human? Absolutely not. This is the first time I have seen you use such a term but Jonathan Ryan Owens always uses it and quite frankly I have had enough. If you had a son or daughter with the condition I bet you would not be so quick to use that terminology.

This entire reply is off topic and would be better kept in PMs, or maybe you could make a new thread where you can talk about which terms offend you and which don't, and the people who give a shit can make sure to keep subscribed.  

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November 20, 2011, 10:01:05 PM
 #36

I wish people would stop using words like libtard or libertard (opposite ends of the political spectrum). Both are very offensive terms and I have a relative who suffers from downsyndrome. He couldn't chose that he was born that way, he just was. These terms are as offensive if not more than any other insult I could possibly think of due to its nature. My cousin with downs is a very happy person but can also be very difficult to deal with and understand. Does this mean that they deserve to be treated as less than human? Absolutely not. This is the first time I have seen you use such a term but Jonathan Ryan Owens always uses it and quite frankly I have had enough. If you had a son or daughter with the condition I bet you would not be so quick to use that terminology.

I apologize if you were somehow offended. I am in fact a medical doctor by profession, and I know only too well about the struggles of families with trisomy and other congenital abnormalities. But surely you must understand that I was not using that term to refer to people with trisomy?

If we were to ban every word that offended someone, we would not be left with many. It is silly to be offended by a neologism. And please do not assume that I think that people with downs should be treated as less than human. That is a huge assumption on your part, and I myself am offended that you would even suggest such a thing.

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November 20, 2011, 10:01:50 PM
 #37

Well I should report your post for offensive comments. In that sense you are in the wrong. I am just tired of seeing it said on here which I read it more than anywhere else. It was definitely related to your post so deal with it.

(Edit)

Ok not your post but it was a direct reply to another post in the forum. I think this is a forum where vitrol is not allowed so I was just trying to put a stop to it.
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November 20, 2011, 10:07:06 PM
 #38

Well I should report your post for offensive comments. In that sense you are in the wrong. I am just tired of seeing it said on here which I read it more than anywhere else. It was definitely related to your post so deal with it.

(Edit)

Ok not your post but it was a direct reply to another post in the forum. I think this is a forum where vitrol is not allowed so I was just trying to put a stop to it.

On that note, I'm going to smoke a faggot now.

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November 20, 2011, 10:09:19 PM
 #39

Well I should report your post for offensive comments. In that sense you are in the wrong. I am just tired of seeing it said on here which I read it more than anywhere else. It was definitely related to your post so deal with it.

(Edit)

Ok not your post but it was a direct reply to another post in the forum. I think this is a forum where vitrol is not allowed so I was just trying to put a stop to it.

On that note, I'm going to smoke a faggot now.

What you do in the privacy of your bedroom is entirely up to you lol. Not back to the topic.

I have seen the price remain very stable over the past few hours which I havent seen in days. Are we on the way up or down?

(Edit)

I think you meant smoke a fag. I have heard cigarettes referred to as fags but not the longer term that you mentioned. That only refers to homosexuals as far as i know.
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November 20, 2011, 10:17:04 PM
 #40

Well I should report your post for offensive comments. In that sense you are in the wrong. I am just tired of seeing it said on here which I read it more than anywhere else. It was definitely related to your post so deal with it.

(Edit)

Ok not your post but it was a direct reply to another post in the forum. I think this is a forum where vitrol is not allowed so I was just trying to put a stop to it.

On that note, I'm going to smoke a faggot now.

What you do in the privacy of your bedroom is entirely up to you lol. Not back to the topic.

I have seen the price remain very stable over the past few hours which I havent seen in days. Are we on the way up or down?

(Edit)

I think you meant smoke a fag. I have heard cigarettes referred to as fags but not the longer term that you mentioned. That only refers to homosexuals as far as i know.

Heh. I'm just fucking with you, sir. Just being outrageous.

Now, as to your other question..


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