2020 U.S. Presidential Election

[eddie13]

Would an openly socialist Sanders presidency be the end of The Great American Experiment?
I think I would lose more hope for the future of the United States, and future of the Free World, if Bernie won, than I gained when Trump won 2016..
The ideals and principles of the founders that forged this country and made it the greatest power and source of prosperity the world has ever seen mean nothing to most average people/voters anymore..  
You think that the USA just accidentally became the greatest country in the world? No, those founding principles made that happen..
Too many will selfishly vote for what they are convinced is best for their personal greed rather than what is best for the future of the US, it's people, and freedom from tyranny across the world..

It is very sad for me to even think that a Socialist that wants to tear the 1A, 2A, 4A, and probably many other As, to shreds has even a slight chance to win the presidency..
Screw the constitution as long as the government will pay off my student loans right? (the student loan market that the government ruined themselves with too easy access to credit, too easy barrier to entry, too low of standards due to affirmative action, etc.)
The government ruined college but now they can fix it by just canceling the debt on all those worthless rags of diplomas supposedly.. Atleast they got to indoctrinate all those poor students they screwed over into radical leftism while saddling them with massive debt on inflated tuition prices due to the free government loans in the first place, and convinced them that somehow their liberal arts degrees would afford them to pay them back..

Ya'll better send me a nice fat check for all of my student loans that I DON'T owe so I can slap it right into Bitcoin and distance myself from dependency on the US..
You think you are going to write $50k checks off the public dole to idiots that made poor financial decisions regarding their education and not send me a nice check too without me pitching a fit about it, you might be wrong.. Those idiots should be left with their debt and shown as an example to others to make better decisions IMO..

It is hard for me to believe that Bernie has as many likely voters as they try to make us believe he might.. I hardly believe anything I see reported by these sham D primary election results, polls, or the media..
All the fuss about Bernie having a chance could be just a ploy to make us think such a horrendous thing could be possible in a fair election..

All of them D candidates are off their rocker wanting universal healthcare, much less wanting free healthcare, housing, schooling, education for damn criminal aliens of all things.. Are you sure this is even actual reality and not just some big joke?
Are voters that believe in American principles really propagandized and population replaced into a minority already? They have enough immigrants and brainwashed here to actually make that happen? Is it over?



Well..
On the upside I hear that a certain someone was acquitted on all charges.. Surprise surprise..
3 terms?

Trump might not be the best choice of president and not the greatest loyalty to American principles but what or who else would you propose to stop/slow the regression of individual liberty and freedom from an overreaching government at this time?
Trump's Iron Chin to take hits from the left all day unflinchingly, and come back with haymakers, is his key to success, and who else has that?

[1713292539]

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[TwitchySeal]

democratic socialism

"Democratic socialism" is just a red herring to make it acceptable to those that don't know anything about it or socialism. The end goal is exactly the same thing. Doing away with capitalism etc and becoming entirely socialist. It takes very little research to see that's the case and the more radical side of Bernie's supporters don't exactly hide that.

Why people think capitalism is so bad is beyond me. The country wouldn't be the economic power house it is without it. China. Russia. They wouldn't embrace it if it wasn't the way to grow their economies and "in theory at least", build a better more prosperous future for their people. There wouldn't be the money there that they now want to spend. It's just ludicrous. It's wall street that's one of the primary issue with it's strangle hold on how companies run themselves and the shit they do. It's the the lack of rules, regulations and the like that allows those at the head of those companies to abuse the system. But it's not capitalism itself. Capitalism is not the cause of the problems. But whatever. People need to blame something and those seeking power will use it if they can get away with it. None of them seem to actually give a shit about the future of the country. The left was all over Trump, Banon etc for wanting to "tear it all down" or whatever that phrase was... but they're willing to embrace Bernie's message. Same message. Just from different sides.. Turn a blind eye to the issues as long as it's "your guy". Don't look beyond your nose and play out the potential scenarios and ramifications.. Sounds familiar.

Would an openly socialist Sanders presidency be the end of The Great American Experiment?

Gotta disagree with you guys.  Socialism and Capitalism are opposite ends of a spectrum that every government is on, including America.  

Socialism without Capitalism, or Capitalism without Socialism are equally extreme.  

Socialism is just a term that refers to a system where the responsibility of producing and distributing services or things is shared by a group of people (tax payers).  Public libraries, hospitals, NASA, the FDA, Public Schools, Highways, Emergency Responders are all low level socialist in that they are at least partially funded by the taxes we are all responsible for paying.  Of course these government funded programs are also Capitalist in that private businesses are able to compete for government contracts.  Own the best private business and you'll make the most money.

The 'Socialist Democrats' just want to pull the country a little bit closer to Socialism on the Socialist ---- Capitalist spectrum.  And the 'Capitalist Republicans' want to do the opposite.  Neither side actually wants to eliminate all Socialism or Capitalism.

[eddie13]

Socialism without Capitalism, or Capitalism without Socialism are equally extreme.  

The 'Socialist Democrats' just want to pull the country a little bit closer to Socialism on the Socialist ---- Capitalist spectrum.  And the 'Capitalist Republicans' want to do the opposite.  Neither side actually wants to eliminate all Socialism or Capitalism.

I would contend that a system very close to pure capitalism is MUCH less "extreme" than a system very close to pure socialism..

A capitalist system allows voluntary charity/socialism requiring little to no government intervention via authority..
A more purely socialist system would require great authority using the threat of violence to stop voluntary capitalistic actions..

I would like to eliminate the vast majority of socialism in place in America today, which is enforced by authority at the threat of violence.. 

[TwitchySeal]

Socialism without Capitalism, or Capitalism without Socialism are equally extreme.  

The 'Socialist Democrats' just want to pull the country a little bit closer to Socialism on the Socialist ---- Capitalist spectrum.  And the 'Capitalist Republicans' want to do the opposite.  Neither side actually wants to eliminate all Socialism or Capitalism.

I would contend that a system very close to pure capitalism is MUCH less "extreme" than a system very close to pure socialism..

A capitalist system allows voluntary charity/socialism requiring little to no government intervention via authority..
A more purely socialist system would require great authority using the threat of violence to stop voluntary capitalistic actions..

I would like to eliminate the vast majority of socialism in place in America today, which is enforced by authority at the threat of violence..  

The closer you get to pure capitalism, the more likely a single person or family acquires enough wealth/power to rule over the rest, or, at best a few giant companies that control everything with free reign.  
Think about what the organized crime families from a few decades ago would be able to get away with without all the regulators and other government agencies breathing down their neck.  



  

[suchmoon]

~

Import tariffs - socialism or capitalism?

[TwitchySeal]

~

Import tariffs - socialism or capitalism?

Ummm.  That makes my head hurt.  Both?

Americans are paying the tax, and the money is going to fund Socialist programs.  But it's a mostly free market(sanctions) that promotes competition on both sides.

[suchmoon]

Ummm.  That makes my head hurt.  Both?

Americans are paying the tax, and the money is going to fund Socialist programs.  But it's a mostly free market(sanctions) that promotes competition on both sides.

Free market would be free unrestricted trade - let the best capitalist win (hint: it'd be Chinese pseudo-capitalists with the advantage of near-slave labor).

Creating new taxes and calling them "tariffs" doesn't sound capitalist at all, not to mention the massive bureaucracy involved in collecting those taxes, as well as the lottery-like and very costly exemption process that makes some capitalists more equal than others.

That doesn't seem to bother the conservatives anymore, just like the trillion-dollar budget deficits and other things they used to be vehemently opposed to.

[TwitchySeal]

That doesn't seem to bother the conservatives anymore, just like the trillion-dollar budget deficits and other things they used to be vehemently opposed to.

Trump said he's collecting the tariffs from China, not Americans.  So that's what's happening.

[eddie13]

It's government intervention into the market, caused by government intervention into the market, caused by government intervention into the market, 100 times over as a socialized protection of the American market..

Trump is far from perfect..

Also, we could hardly expect the USA to go straight ancap.. It's not realistic to drop 100% of socialistic actions we currently take considering the position we are in..

All of those that have grown accustom to free healthcare, free foodstamps, free housing, welfare for single mothers, welfare for disabled, social security, child support, and on and on would all probably just die if we took their safetynets away..
Wouldn't have that problem if government didn't create it in the first place but we are where we are and it is continually degrading.. We don't need to continually make the situation worse by expanding it..

The USA also cannot afford to lose it's place as the dominant power on the worlds stage because we would instantly be a target of all..

The constitution itself is not even 100% capitalist due to the Import-Export Clause which "secures for the federal government the revenues from all tariffs" and..
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States..

It's not like the founding principles are even 100% capitalist but that doesn't mean that we need to be moving more, and more, and more, towards big government authoritarian socialism at every passing election..

What made America great to begin with is capitalism that recognizes that the experts in private industry know more and better about how to create value than some bureaucrats in the gov that think they know everything..

We can start moving back toward truer capitalism but we can't do it all in one shot or the disruptions to current society dependent on government for their way of lives would be catastrophic..

[Gyfts]

Updated tally marks, big congrats to Bernie Sanders and his supporters for winning the NH Primary! Expected, but a confirmed win nonetheless after the disaster Iowa caucus.

My take on the results so far is that Joe Biden has imploded and Mike Bloomberg is stealing his base by pouring hundreds of millions of dollars in advertisements. Biden just doesn't have the funds to compete and the only way I would see him coming back into this race is if Obama endorsed Biden and campaigned for him which isn't likely. Biden is holding out for South Carolina and Nevada and if Bernie outperforms him or if Bloomberg takes too many of his votes away, Biden is done for. I feel like Elizabeth Warren is going to drop out soon too. Two extremely underwhelming performances takes her in the backseat while Bernie soaks up those progressive young voters in back to back states. Amy Klobuchar had a decently good night but I don't expect her going too far. This lastly leaves Pete Buttigieg who's ran extremely competitive with Bernie. I think Pete will fair well in deep blue progressive states but doesn't have the national momentum to outrun Bernie in this race.


I feel like Bernie has this thing tied up if he holds his momentum and my money's on him, what about you guys?

[Spendulus]

....

I feel like Bernie has this thing tied up if he holds his momentum and my money's on him, what about you guys?

Not a chance. Democratic behind the scenes power moguls will not allow it.

[KingScorpio]

i was recently censored by the forum, because i said that the usa draines valuable attention worldwide with its crap (and i also got merit for that)

[TECSHARE]

Andrew Yang was among my favorites. I liked the program he promised. Who should I vote for now?

Trump

[Viper1]

Andrew Yang was among my favorites. I liked the program he promised. Who should I vote for now?

Your second favorite. i.e You said your had favorites, plural. They all suck for one reason or another though.

[Viper1]

democratic socialism

"Democratic socialism" is just a red herring to make it acceptable to those that don't know anything about it or socialism. The end goal is exactly the same thing. Doing away with capitalism etc and becoming entirely socialist. It takes very little research to see that's the case and the more radical side of Bernie's supporters don't exactly hide that.

Why people think capitalism is so bad is beyond me. The country wouldn't be the economic power house it is without it. China. Russia. They wouldn't embrace it if it wasn't the way to grow their economies and "in theory at least", build a better more prosperous future for their people. There wouldn't be the money there that they now want to spend. It's just ludicrous. It's wall street that's one of the primary issue with it's strangle hold on how companies run themselves and the shit they do. It's the the lack of rules, regulations and the like that allows those at the head of those companies to abuse the system. But it's not capitalism itself. Capitalism is not the cause of the problems. But whatever. People need to blame something and those seeking power will use it if they can get away with it. None of them seem to actually give a shit about the future of the country. The left was all over Trump, Banon etc for wanting to "tear it all down" or whatever that phrase was... but they're willing to embrace Bernie's message. Same message. Just from different sides.. Turn a blind eye to the issues as long as it's "your guy". Don't look beyond your nose and play out the potential scenarios and ramifications.. Sounds familiar.

Would an openly socialist Sanders presidency be the end of The Great American Experiment?

Gotta disagree with you guys.  Socialism and Capitalism are opposite ends of a spectrum that every government is on, including America.  

Socialism without Capitalism, or Capitalism without Socialism are equally extreme.  

Socialism is just a term that refers to a system where the responsibility of producing and distributing services or things is shared by a group of people (tax payers).  Public libraries, hospitals, NASA, the FDA, Public Schools, Highways, Emergency Responders are all low level socialist in that they are at least partially funded by the taxes we are all responsible for paying.  Of course these government funded programs are also Capitalist in that private businesses are able to compete for government contracts.  Own the best private business and you'll make the most money.

I think you assumed I look at things as one or the other. No. The US is neither capitalistic or socialist. It's a balance of the two and "everyone" wants that. The only disagreement is how much of both. But that's a lot different than the core beliefs of the various socialists. The socialist end goal is the same, just different routes to get there. The real issue today is that the masses hear "socialist" and they think it means social programs and so turn a blind eye to anything else.

The 'Socialist Democrats' just want to pull the country a little bit closer to Socialism on the Socialist ---- Capitalist spectrum.

Seriously dude? You really need to go do some research and listen to some of the more hardcore Bernie supporters. And maybe some history as well where the masses turned a blind eye to certain messages thinking.. oh no. that could never happen.. or ... they say X but they really mean Y.

Trump supporters are willing to let him get away with fucking over the country and rule of law as long as he builds the wall, fights the left and the media etc etc etc. But they're passive for the most part. More talk than action. They're older and "lazy". But they believe in the country and at least support the idea of the constitution.

Bernie's core supporters are young, energized, are active and they want "revolution" and that includes both sorts. They include all forms of socialism including communism. They are ready to push politicians hard to implement what they want. The people in the USSR did not wake up one day and decide to be communist. It was basically fighting amongst groups with different socialist ideal and the clamp down in the aftermath to hold power by the winner. The people of Germany were promised all sorts of things to make their lives better and make them proud of their country again and they turned a blind eye to the negative.

Here's a couple samples of what some have said to me over the last week.

If the framers could revolt against the corruption of their day then so to can the people of this day revolt against the corruption of their ruling class. To hell with the weak who seek solace in obedience to feckless masters.

If the constitution is standing in the way of the things it claims that it stands for then it is time for it to be changed or negated. We do not today have to follow the rules set in place nearly three centuries ago by people who claimed they were creating equality while owning slaves and women as property. We can and should have rules for our time and our problems that recognize the full spectrum of humanity. It is clear to anyone aware and willing to acknowledge the reality before them that the rules are not working to equalize society for everyone but rather maximizing the benefit to some at the expense of others..

And that is what it's going to take for Bernie  to beat Trump. There's no time to play footsie. I'm almost sure the reason you feel the way you do like other Bernie haters is because your candidate didn't cut the mustard. I bet you hate AOC as well. Well good, because we need to get people like you (Do-Nothing-Democrats) out of the way so we can at least get things actually done in this God awful country.

I love how everyone likes to stick me in a box so they can just not argue a point. What's even funny about the one above is I had made a point of saying it's not Bernie but his supports and yet he still labeled me a Bernie hater. The delusion and fanaticism between Trump and Bernie supporters is exactly the same. But core Bernie supporters are different. They want to dismantle core aspects of the country. Just look at how the far left (which is where the Bernie supporters reside), cry out about "hate" speech or "fake news" and the like and demand the politicians and corporations do something about it. The spineless cowardly politicians show that Freedom of speech means nothing to them if it will get them votes. The corporations are so spineless and worried about bad press they bend over and do what the politicians and vocal minority (and the mindless mob that follows along) wants them to do and they censor people. God forbid they censor people in China though. Just our own people. Cause... well lets just ignore that.

But yep. No need to be worried at all cause I'm sure the politicians will do the right thing. We see that every single day. Yep.

[Spendulus]

...

Bernie's core supporters are young, energized, are active and they want "revolution" and that includes both sorts. They include all forms of socialism including communism. They are ready to push politicians hard to implement what they want. The people in the USSR did not wake up one day and decide to be communist. It was basically fighting amongst groups with different socialist ideal and the clamp down in the aftermath to hold power by the winner. The people of Germany were promised all sorts of things to make their lives better and make them proud of their country again and they turned a blind eye to the negative....

Add Cuba and Venezuela to the list.

It's the clamp down after the subjugation where the truth emerges.

[mayo2u]

I feel like Bernie has this thing tied up if he holds his momentum and my money's on him, what about you guys?

"Tied up?" Hell no. Do you think he'll get half the delegates in order to win on the first ballot? I don't. The *perceived* progressive wing as opposed to the *perceived* centrist wing has ceiling of 35-40% for months now.

Take a look at the Iowa and NH races. The "progressives" (Bernie and Warren) got in the 35-40 range and the "establishment" (Pete, Klobuchar, Biden) got the rest. And, on Super Tuesday, Bloomberg gets in the race.

Can Sanders win the nomination? Maybe. But I don't think so.

[Gyfts]

I feel like Bernie has this thing tied up if he holds his momentum and my money's on him, what about you guys?

"Tied up?" Hell no. Do you think he'll get half the delegates in order to win on the first ballot? I don't. The *perceived* progressive wing as opposed to the *perceived* centrist wing has ceiling of 35-40% for months now.

Take a look at the Iowa and NH races. The "progressives" (Bernie and Warren) got in the 35-40 range and the "establishment" (Pete, Klobuchar, Biden) got the rest. And, on Super Tuesday, Bloomberg gets in the race.

Can Sanders win the nomination? Maybe. But I don't think so.

In the event there isn't a contested convention, I don't think any other democrat has the national support that Bernie has right now after Biden and Warren's collapse. I think Bloomberg will soak up Biden's base and by doing so, he's going to be taking away from Pete and Klobuchar's base as well. I think the progressive wing has the plurality over the moderate wing when Bloomberg jumps in because the moderate lane is way too contested.

[philipma1957]

I feel like Bernie has this thing tied up if he holds his momentum and my money's on him, what about you guys?

"Tied up?" Hell no. Do you think he'll get half the delegates in order to win on the first ballot? I don't. The *perceived* progressive wing as opposed to the *perceived* centrist wing has ceiling of 35-40% for months now.

Take a look at the Iowa and NH races. The "progressives" (Bernie and Warren) got in the 35-40 range and the "establishment" (Pete, Klobuchar, Biden) got the rest. And, on Super Tuesday, Bloomberg gets in the race.

Can Sanders win the nomination? Maybe. But I don't think so.

In the event there isn't a contested convention, I don't think any other democrat has the national support that Bernie has right now after Biden and Warren's collapse. I think Bloomberg will soak up Biden's base and by doing so, he's going to be taking away from Pete and Klobuchar's base as well. I think the progressive wing has the plurality over the moderate wing when Bloomberg jumps in because the moderate lane is way too contested.

  Mind I would prefer Sanders or Yang.

But Yang is done and they won't ever give it to Sanders.

So basically Trump will run the table here and 4 more years are looking pretty much certain. Only thing stopping Trump would be a health event making him unfit to run.