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Author Topic: I like the manipulator, I had him all wrong, he is robbing you fools  (Read 4139 times)
mjcmurfy
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November 22, 2011, 03:43:29 AM
 #41

But it would have to be large enough to be market reversal at the same time and in that case that happens now I don't wanna have anything to do with bitcoin.

I'm not sure what you mean. Why would you not want to have anything to do with bitcoin if the exchange price were to rise?

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November 22, 2011, 05:05:49 AM
 #42

But it would have to be large enough to be market reversal at the same time and in that case that happens now I don't wanna have anything to do with bitcoin.

I'm not sure what you mean. Why would you not want to have anything to do with bitcoin if the exchange price were to rise?

I have no problem with rising prices, but I'm interested in a currency and monetary system not a commodity with artificially inflated prices.
I want prices to rise because of real demand not because people withhold them from the market to increase scarcity.

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mjcmurfy
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November 22, 2011, 05:40:01 AM
 #43

But it would have to be large enough to be market reversal at the same time and in that case that happens now I don't wanna have anything to do with bitcoin.

I'm not sure what you mean. Why would you not want to have anything to do with bitcoin if the exchange price were to rise?

I have no problem with rising prices, but I'm interested in a currency and monetary system not a commodity with artificially inflated prices.
I want prices to rise because of real demand not because people withhold them from the market to increase scarcity.

If you want bitcoin to be a currency, then stop buying and day-trading it and start exchanging goods or services for it instead. Provide some REAL value! Complaining about the commodification of bitcoin while actively trading it for profit is utter hypocrisy.

If people are withholding from the market, it means they are unwilling to sell at current prices or else they have no interest in selling it in the first place - at any price. Does that mean the price is being artificially inflated? Whoever is giving away these incredibly rare tokens for $2.20 a piece is absolutely insane.

Basing the worth of a bitcoin on a manipulated rate quoted on an extremely thinly traded commodity market with very few participants, is an absolutely horrible way of valuing it. Of course the exchanges are going to be open to manipulation, of course people are going to get screwed by people with large amounts of purchasing power. The best way to deal with it and to move bitcoin into the realm of an actual currency is to just ignore the exchanges completely, to stop depositing bitcoin with them, and let the value of a bitcoin be determined by real world assets instead of fiat. Money is cheap and abundant, hard assets are expensive and rare.

The btc:fiat exchanges are blinding people to the true utility and value of bitcoin.
We are all getting blinkered by MtGox, and failing to see the forrest for the trees!

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November 22, 2011, 06:24:02 AM
 #44

Bitcoin is abundant based on its current userbase. Its growth potential is uncertain at best so based on that assertion bitcoin is overvalued.

I am guilty of hypocrisy? Daytrading though a market maker only has an effect on the coins and fiat money already in the exchange. It does nothing to the system. All the bitcoins I ever possessed were either spent or used for trading.

Please do not compare bitcoin to an hard asset, gold, silver are limited by the laws of nature. I cannot substitute it with anything. Bitcoin is still more sane than fiat money but you are comparing apples, oranges and watermelons.

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November 22, 2011, 06:25:02 AM
 #45

The best way to deal with it and to move bitcoin into the realm of an actual currency is to just ignore the exchanges completely, to stop depositing bitcoin with them, and let the value of a bitcoin be determined by real world assets instead of fiat. Money is cheap and abundant, hard assets are expensive and rare.

The btc:fiat exchanges are blinding people to the true utility and value of bitcoin.
We are all getting blinkered by MtGox, and failing to see the forrest for the trees!

No currency or commodity exists in a vacuum.  All are compared against at least one other value metric.  Even the best commodity with a proven track record over thousands of years (gold) is priced in US dollars.  Without that metric, how would one buy a piece of gold?  What is its value?  The exact same is true for bitcoins.  You can mine them yourself, just as you can go out and find a piece of gold in the ground.  But there are real costs associated with both actions.  

Even if we price bitcoins in ounces of gold that doesn't change the fact that bitcoins will always be compared to the value of other currencies, either by one or maybe two degrees of separation.

BTW, bitcoin is not a hard asset.  It has no intrinsic value in itself and doesn't even exist in what most people would consider physical form (no, burning it to a ROM or CD doesn't count).  Bitcoin is an agreement between multiple people who agree to give it value.  Yes, there is a limited number that will ever exist, but in every other way it's the same as any other currency.

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mjcmurfy
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November 22, 2011, 06:36:45 AM
 #46

Both of you are the epitome of the kind of blinkering that I was referring to in my post above.

If bitcoin is to be a currency in and of itself, it's value should not be pegged to ANOTHER CURRENCY!! And an inferior one at that. It has to be valued based on the hard assets, goods and services that people are willing to exchange for it, just like the USD is today. I am in no way saying that bitcoin is a hard asset. Read my post again, as both of you glaringly failed to understand it.

Like you said cluster2k, gold is priced in USD (and other fiat currencies, but primarily USD because of the global economic hegemony of the United States). We need it to also be priced in bitcoin independently of the bitcoin:usd exchange rate, and the same goes for other hard assets. That can only happen when people trust it as a medium of exchange and have a rough idea of it's purchasing power in their minds i.e. I can buy X loaves of bread with 1btc, or Y gallons of gas, or Z oz's of gold etc. Wide adoption is first necessary for this.

Even the best commodity with a proven track record over thousands of years (gold) is priced in US dollars.  Without that metric, how would one buy a piece of gold?  What is its value?  The exact same is true for bitcoins.

I had to quote this for fear you would go back and edit it out of shame. How would we value gold if it were not priced in USD? Are you actually serious cluster2k? This illustrates a conspicuous lack of fundamental economic knowledge on your part. Gold used to be the medium through which other things were bought and sold. Gold has purchasing power and intrinsic value not because of the fact it is priced in usd, but actually in spite of it! It used to be the other way round you silly person, the USD itself only had value in the first instance because it was pegged to the value of gold. And the value of gold comes from the reliable forces of supply and demand. The supply is very low, while the demand is extremely high. That is why it has purchasing power.

Yes bitcoin will inevitably be compared to other currencies by speculators, but without any hard assets in the bitcoin economy i.e. people willing to exchange these assets for bitcoin, it is a pointless comparison. YES there are 'real' costs associated with any bitcoin business that needs to be currently paid for in fiat, but they don't have to be paid for in fiat. Once people are willing for these costs to be paid for in bitcoin, then the exchange of bitcoin for fiat will not be necessary. This is why it is so crucial that we begin to offer goods and services in exchange for bitcoin, independently of a manipulated exchange rate.

Then, and only then, will bitcoin be a currency proper. As it stands now, the bitcoin economy is FAR too heavily reliant on fiat exchange services. It is almost akin to getting paid in USD for your goods or services, but having to pay all of your costs in cheese wheels that must be purchased by trading your USD for cheese on an usd:cheese exchange. Until businesses can pay other businesses in bitcoin for the majority of their expenses, it can only be a speculative trading vehicle with some very limited utility as a currency.

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October 05, 2014, 07:40:15 PM
 #47

The last time "the Manipulator" was around it was found to be the owners of Bitcoinica changing the price to short squeeze people.

Be careful if you have bitcoins on an exchange.

Bitcoinica eventually got "hacked" and a lot of people lost money.

MtGox was also manipulating the price too.

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October 05, 2014, 07:42:03 PM
 #48

The last time "the Manipulator" was around it was found to be the owners of Bitcoinica changing the price to short squeeze people.

Be careful if you have bitcoins on an exchange.

Bitcoinica eventually got "hacked" and a lot of people lost money.

MtGox was also manipulating the price too.
Way to necro post!

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October 05, 2014, 08:48:56 PM
 #49

When I see an antique that I want to buy, I will flood ebay with my own similar antiques. This will cause people to not bid so highly on the antique I want to buy because they see many more of the same or similar ones coming to the market. I then buy up the antique I want to buy, and then remove/end my ebay listings. Works like a charm.

Looks like e-bay needs to start limit people from removing listings for high priced items expensive items.
Good to know stuff like this is going on I guess  Undecided

If your trying to sell something rare on e-bay looks like you really need to start watching all similar listings and pull your listing if some tries to screw you over in this manner.


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