Kremlin vs bitcoiners.

[Captain-Cryptory]

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[jseverson]

Isn't it rather disproportionately severe punishment that might be established by the government of country where the majority of the population are the poor? What's you though?

It is, but they're also an authoritarian country which can get away with most of what they want. The penalties are a reflection of how resolute they are in their stance, and they obviously don't want crypto being handled at all:

"We believe there are big risks of legalizing the operations with the cryptocurrencies, from the standpoint of financial stability, money laundering prevention and consumer protection," Russia's central bank head of legal, Alexey Guznov, told Russia news agency Interfax this week in comments translated to English via Google.

"We are opposed to the fact that there are institutions that organize the release of cryptocurrency and facilitate its circulation," Guznov said, adding the coming bill "directly formulates a ban on the issue, as well as on the organization of circulation of cryptocurrency, and introduces liability for violation of this ban."

This article was from two months ago. Putin has flip-flopped for the longest time, but it looks like it's inevitable this time.

[pjcaruci]

I believe that this violates the rights of traders in their country, will they really do this?

[LeGaulois]

It's still draft bills, the time it takes to become law, pigs will fly. I mean it can take a long time (up to years) and a lot of things can happen between. Especially since, as the article quotes, the authorities disagree with each other.

For companies I don't think it's a big deal, they will need to be listed on the central bank’s register to continue business and if they can't be listed it's just a matter to change the business location to another country. Companies won't hesitate to do it.

For individuals, it will mean better to not use anything related to banks/payment processors/VISA,MC to buy/sell/exchange tokens.

Yes, I believe the punishment is severe, but Russia is usually severe with everything

[stompix]

What's you though?

You posted it in legal, so we should discuss it from the legal point of view? Then, there is not much to talk about it.

If Putin approves, it will be done, and once he does its a matter of how much do they really want to curb usage in the country.
There are hundreds of laws in Russia but enforcing them it's another thing, if they will simply use it as a means to target individuals most of the users can still fly below the radar and will not get in trouble. If it's an all-out crackdown on it, then it's simply game over.  he fine might not scare a few of the big users, but if it comes to prison time, this is not Norway where prison cells are more comfortable than 99% of the homes in Eastern Europe.

I tried following the Russian topics but google translate is really annoying so it would be nice if a few of the Russian speakers would come here and explain more about that proposal.

[gentlemand]

Yeah.

Right.

I really hope the rest of Russia isn't run along these lines because their whole crypto apocalypse has been a fucking joke from second one. Have they actually passed any laws at all yet? They've had several years to do it.

One day Putin is being put on the blockchain. The next day you're going to get a pint of radioactive tea courtesy of the FSB if have a scroll through Coindesk.

If this is some sort of 4D chess against crypto they've blown it miserably. Russia is a nothing when it could've been something. And no one else cares.

[figmentofmyass]

Putin has flip-flopped for the longest time, but it looks like it's inevitable this time.

inevitable, why?

there has been longstanding disagreement between russia's central bank and the ministry of finance about how to address cryptocurrency. the former wants to ban it, the latter wants to legalize and regulate.

meanwhile the duma has been at a standstill on the matter for many years, state-owned utilities are building mining farms, and local governors are trying to attract bitcoin miners to their provinces.
https://www.coindesk.com/a-russian-nuclear-plant-is-renting-space-to-energy-hungry-bitcoin-miners
https://news.bitcoin.com/russian-governor-cryptocurrency-miners-mining-farms-leningrad/

i have a feeling too many russian political elites are already invested in bitcoin or bitcoin infrastructure to allow this sort of bill to pass. considering the shaky crude oil market and their dependence on it, russia also needs to consider the tax revenues and diversification that regulated crypto mining and trading could bring.

[malevolent]

If this is some sort of 4D chess against crypto they've blown it miserably. Russia is a nothing when it could've been something. And no one else cares.

Most likely a struggle between rival factions, even in autocracies such as Russia or China more than a single person or entity gets to have a say how things are ran.

i have a feeling too many russian political elites are already invested in bitcoin or bitcoin infrastructure to allow this sort of bill to pass. considering the shaky crude oil market and their dependence on it, russia also needs to consider the tax revenues and diversification that regulated crypto mining and trading could bring.

The FSB is said to have a at least a five-figure amount of bitcoins stolen from Wex, it'd be easier to launder or make use of them if their country's laws weren't overly draconian.

[gentlemand]

The FSB is said to have a at least a five-figure amount of bitcoins stolen from Wex, it'd be easier to launder or make use of them if their country's laws weren't overly draconian.

The FSB can do whatever the hell they like. Law does or doesn't apply to whomever their masters choose. Russia is basically a very large mechanism designed to transfer money into a small number of pockets at the top.

[malevolent]

The FSB can do whatever the hell they like. Law does or doesn't apply to whomever their masters choose. Russia is basically a very large mechanism designed to transfer money into a small number of pockets at the top.

It's always more convenient to have a veneer of legitimacy when trying get rid of or undermine someone who has become a thorn in a side, and blatant law-breakers make for the easiest targets.

[stompix]

The FSB is said to have a at least a five-figure amount of bitcoins stolen from Wex, it'd be easier to launder or make use of them if their country's laws weren't overly draconian.

They are already granted by law since KGB times the means of self-funding, they can sell or lease, import, and export anything as long as it is considered a source of funding activities as long as this doesn't go against anything else in their statute. I doubt that those bitcoins are still in the organization's possession and haven't yet either sold to fund it or sold to....who it needed to be sold.

i have a feeling too many russian political elites are already invested in bitcoin or bitcoin infrastructure to allow this sort of bill to pass. considering the shaky crude oil market and their dependence on it, russia also needs to consider the tax revenues and diversification that regulated crypto mining and trading could bring.

It's not that simple, we're talking about basically a dictatorship here
It is normal for any dictator and his elite to seek any kind of revenue from everything, from faking goods, selling counterfeit currency, involving in smuggling, everything till...anyone dealing with this is seen as gathering too much power and the thing is considered to be dangerous to the foundation of the party and terminated.
If Putin decides this thing could give too much power to somebody and be outside its total control it's game over!

[gentlemand]

If the Putin decides this thing could give too much power to somebody and be outside its total control it's game over!

Total illegality could work rather nicely for them. Many people will ignore it. They will all be very straightforward and juicy targets. A world where Bitcoin thrives outside and continues to enter Russia ready to be grabbed wherever it can be found would be a lucrative one.

Where that might blow up in their faces is if it starts to be used widely in conventional finance. If Russia's a total no go in that scenario it might start to hurt their bottom line. You can be a thieving gangster but also want to do legit ish business with the rest of the world too.

[sheenshane]

It's not that simple, we're talking about basically a dictatorship here

This.
This only shows how serious their country when it comes to implementing a law though it may sound unjustifiable, but we aren't the citizens of Russia. But for them or the Russian citizen, they get used to this kind of punishment. Russia is an authoritarian country and if they said something then it must be done it will be really hard for their citizens to get involved in Bitcoins if their government will give this sanctions to law violators.

However, it's still early for us to be alarmed things might still change especially when Putin gets to know the advantages of bitcoin and that some countries have started to embrace it. This is the might reason, " Blow To Bitcoin As Russia Moves To Effectively Ban Crypto ".

[Jating]

Is there something new here? This is forth coming as we have seen Russian's stance keeps changing since 2017 so I'm not surprise by this.

@sheenshane - I do hope that you have been following's the government stance since 2017 because all they did was totally contradicting themselves. If you haven't follow them, then I suggest you do a research and you will find out everything. And remember the so called mining farms in Russia? We really don't know what happen then, it was reported, if I'm not mistaken in 2018 and then boom? Never heard of it again. Putin will never allow something that they can't control specially giving too much freedom, like bitcoin.

[Harlot]

According to a report by the local news outlet RBC on Thursday (May 21, 2020), the State Duma, Russia’s parliament, received a fresh set of draft bills on the regulation of cryptocurrency and crypto activities. The bills are an amendment to Russia’s criminal code and Code of Administrative Offences.

As contained in the draft bills, individuals and crypto businesses guilty of cryptocurrency violations will be made to pay hefty fines or serve jail terms. Also, the amendments will prohibit initial coin offerings (ICO) in Russia.

I can understand the jail terms and fine being implemented for every illegal actions made by individuals and businesses since it will be part of their amended criminal code but what I don't understand is why ban ICOs in general? News in Russia is certainly unclear since it is always back and forth of the Russian government in one day supporting crypto and in another they are opposing the crypto industry hopefully this news isn't true since if the ICO market lost Russia then it is another top market country not being able to take part of the demand.

[figmentofmyass]

i have a feeling too many russian political elites are already invested in bitcoin or bitcoin infrastructure to allow this sort of bill to pass. considering the shaky crude oil market and their dependence on it, russia also needs to consider the tax revenues and diversification that regulated crypto mining and trading could bring.

It's not that simple, we're talking about basically a dictatorship here
It is normal for any dictator and his elite to seek any kind of revenue from everything, from faking goods, selling counterfeit currency, involving in smuggling, everything till...anyone dealing with this is seen as gathering too much power and the thing is considered to be dangerous to the foundation of the party and terminated.
If Putin decides this thing could give too much power to somebody and be outside its total control it's game over!

watch this snippet from an interview with putin: https://twitter.com/APompliano/status/1255160696461037574

putin understands very well that russia can't control bitcoin. the central bank also recently acknowledged that a ban is actually impossible: https://beincrypto.com/russian-central-bank-admits-it-cant-ban-bitcoin/

a ban on bitcoin would be like a ban on gold---unenforceable, and would make the government look very impotent. these conflicting bills that keep being proposed are IMO more about political posturing and power brokering than an actual ban.

[stompix]

a ban on bitcoin would be like a ban on gold---unenforceable, and would make the government look very impotent.

Hihihi, so you think a ban on crypto is impossible?
How many crypto owners are in North Korea? 

You haven't lived in a dictatorship, you don't know that feeling when you go to bed and you ask yourself if you did something that might get you arrested that night. It's normal to act brave while you're safe at home in another country, it's normal to be brave, but when people you know that had no intent to commit suicide jump out the windows, are suddenly sick and die in hospital, die in car crashes and nobody is allowed to see their bodies, you won't be that brave, nobody will. And if there are a few they will not live that much to tell their stories.

Trust me, I've lived in a communist dictatorship, you can ban EVERYTHING! You can ban even breathing for certain individuals, and it's pretty easy, you sentence them to the execution squad. Do you have a clue how many of my countrymen have died in labor camps and re-education centers? Covid19 is a carebear compared to that.
If Putin wants to ban it, he will ban it and after a few headlines and scandals nobody will care, and you won't hear a word about cryptos from Russia.

putin understands very well that russia can't control bitcoin. the central bank also recently acknowledged that a ban is actually impossible: https://beincrypto.com/russian-central-bank-admits-it-cant-ban-bitcoin/

Yeah, bitcoin blogs at their best, twisting words, this is the actual text

“If a person who owns, conditionally, bitcoins, completes his transaction in a jurisdiction that does not prohibit this, we are unlikely to be able to limit it to this.”

So they can't prevent a Russian citizen that already has bitcoin to send bitcoins.....That's all!
Not a word about being unable to stop Russians from buying bitcoins or purchasing stuff with it.

But at the same time, the Central Bank insists that institutions facilitate the circulation of cryptocurrency. In general, the department seeks to introduce those restrictions that it considers necessary and technically feasible.

[figmentofmyass]

You haven't lived in a dictatorship, you don't know that feeling when you go to bed and you ask yourself if you did something that might get you arrested that night.

lol, that sounds like a great reason to fearmonger about russia banning bitcoin.

Trust me, I've lived in a communist dictatorship, you can ban EVERYTHING!

cool, lemme know when russia bans bitcoin. they've been threatening to do it for 6+ years. i'm sure their intention was to quietly watch adoption go exponential for many years, and then try to ban it.

Yeah, bitcoin blogs at their best, twisting words, this is the actual text

“If a person who owns, conditionally, bitcoins, completes his transaction in a jurisdiction that does not prohibit this, we are unlikely to be able to limit it to this.”

you glossed over this:

At the same time, the head of the legal department of the Central Bank of the Russian Federation noted that the authorities would not prohibit Russian citizens from buying cryptocurrency and own it. Moreover, he acknowledged that this was not possible from a practical point of view. the best they can do is ban exchanges.

“If a person who owns, conditionally, bitcoins, completes his transaction in a jurisdiction that does not prohibit this, we are unlikely to be able to limit it to this.”

the implication is while they can restrict bitcoin exchanges in russia, they cannot stop russians from buying and owning bitcoins, nor will they try.

the chinese are an excellent example of a population that doesn't give a fuck about their totalitarian government's restrictions on bitcoin, or any sort of capital restrictions at all for that matter. when exchanges got banned, the OTC market exploded and chinese traders just moved to hong kong and singapore based exchanges.

the russians i know couldn't give one fuck what their government says about bitcoin either. this isn't 1970s soviet union anymore. it's the same situation as china. the PBOC threatened to ban bitcoin in china dozens of times over many years (just like the bank of russia) but never actually did. they can't and they know they would look completely powerless if they tried. that's the last thing authoritarians want.

i don't see any indication that russia is closer to banning bitcoin than it was in 2014. if anything, the opposite. but you can keep fearmongering if you'd like......

[stompix]

You went from this:

a ban on bitcoin would be like a ban on gold---unenforceable, and would make the government look very impotent.

to this

cool, lemme know when russia bans bitcoin. they've been threatening to do it for 6+ years.

Two different scenarios, what can they do it if they really want, and if they will even do it in the first place.
If you would have bothered to actually read what I'm posting you couldn't have missed this:

If Putin approves, it will be done, and once he does its a matter of how much do they really want to curb usage in the country.
There are hundreds of laws in Russia but enforcing them it's another thing, if they will simply use it as a means to target individuals most of the users can still fly below the radar and will not get in trouble. If it's an all-out crackdown on it, then it's simply game over.

But I'm used to it, if you don't stick your tongue deep down satoshi's......code and treat bitcoin as the supreme invincible undefeatable unbannable perfectionist entity you're spreading FUD.

[squatter]

Conservative estimates put the size of the Russian shadow economy at 20% of GDP. Other estimates put its size closer to 45% of GDP. Russians are very used to hiding their assets from the authorities. Bribery is also extremely common. We can also see from the explosion in cross-border Tether usage between China and Moscow that cryptocurrencies make restrictions on capital flow ineffectual. I wonder what the bill's backers think a ban would accomplish -- another widely ignored Russian law and new avenue for corruption?

In the summer, there will probably be another Russian bill that proposes fully legalizing cryptocurrencies. Wake me up when Vladimir Putin actually signs one of them.

Chances are that nothing will come of this. Russia -- and Putin specifically -- have much bigger problems to worry about. He has even delayed his longstanding plans to rewrite the constitution to give himself another two terms in office.

Rumblings of discontent are growing in Russia over Vladimir Putin’s handling of the pandemic. His approval ratings fell to an historic low for him — down to 59 % last month from 63 % the previous month, according to the independent pollster Levada Center.
 
Even the normally loyal state-owned broadcaster Russia Today ran a report last week warning that the country risks a double-digit unemployment rate and a “return to the pain of the economic miasma of the Yeltsin years [that] would have unpredictable consequences for President Putin.”

The Russian president has had to put on hold his plans to rewrite the Russian constitution, which would allow him another 12 years in office, “while the Kremlin tries to deal with both the virus and a new economic crisis,” says Tatiana Stanovaya, an analyst with the Carnegie Moscow Center, a think tank. “These twin challenges represent the biggest shock the Putin regime has ever faced and are likely to feed popular dissatisfaction,” she adds.  
 
The economic fallout is mounting. A quarter of working-age Russians say they have lost their jobs or expect they will soon. Six out of ten Russians have no savings. There have been isolated protests and analysts say there’s a real prospect of much wider unrest, once the pandemic starts to accelerate beyond Moscow and St. Petersburg, where hospitals and local health services have been neglected for years.