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Author Topic: Riots after Death of Man in Minneapolis Police Custody  (Read 3509 times)
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April 08, 2021, 10:01:44 PM
 #361

Chauvin Trial Day 8 Wrap-Up: “I Ate Too Many Drugs” Video May Be Game-Changer
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/chauvin-trial-day-8-wrap-up-i-ate-too-many-drugs-video-may-be-game-changer/

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April 08, 2021, 10:26:54 PM
 #362

Chauvin Trial Day 8 Wrap-Up: “I Ate Too Many Drugs” Video May Be Game-Changer
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/chauvin-trial-day-8-wrap-up-i-ate-too-many-drugs-video-may-be-game-changer/

I'm listening to Dr. Tobin's testimony and he describes positional asphyxia.

My follow up questions.

Did fentanyl and methamphetamine along with underlying conditions play any role in Floyd's death? Tobin seemed to suggest no (might've outright said no, can't remember).

Does fentanyl result in less respiration/breaths per minute? If so, would that mean Floyd should've had a higher respiration rate than 17-22 breathes per minute *given* that Floyd had a high heart rate, was fighting with police, and presumably would need more air than a resting individual.

His testimony is very very convincing, but there are a couple issues I have with it. It seems to minimize underlying conditions/drugs which contradicts the autopsy report, and it also speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

But all in all, great day for prosecution.

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April 09, 2021, 04:22:23 AM
 #363


His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

The defense should have objected to this answer. The same is true for any conclusions Dr. Tobin made. I expect Chauvin to mount a defense that includes their own expert witnesses.

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April 09, 2021, 04:45:20 AM
 #364


His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

The defense should have objected to this answer. The same is true for any conclusions Dr. Tobin made. I expect Chauvin to mount a defense that includes their own expert witnesses.

I don't think it's a valid objection though. He created a diagram and it's just his opinion, so he's open to speculate on how much weight Chauvin had on his neck. And by Dr. Tobin's account, he's taking a scientific, mathematical, and methodical approach. So there's nothing to object, he's speaking within his expertise.

But clearly, Eric Nelson pointed out that there was some levels of assumption in Dr. Tobin's analysis in assuming the weights of Chauvin and his gear. I'm surprised Nelson didn't point out his calculation was speculating where Chauvin's center of gravity was and that the center of gravity was maintained for 6 minutes+ killing Floyd, but it's not like Dr. Tobin wouldn't be reluctant to say "Yes, I used shoddy bystander footage to determine Chauvin's center of gravity in order to conclude 90 pounds of pressure".

Of course Chauvin will produce his own laundry list of experts that will contradict what Dr. Tobin says, because there are two sides to every story, but I think Dr. Tobin makes extremely compelling arguments and I feel inclined to take his word for what he says. Do I have "reasonable doubt" as to whether Chauvin asphyxiated Floyd, yes. If the autopsy report conducted by Dr. Baker found evidence of an obstructed airway and evidence of asphyxia, then I would undoubtedly take Dr. Tobin's word as undisputed. But, there is some conflicting evidence.

And did anyone catch the part where Eric Nelson mentioned that the high effect, or the maximum effect (forgot what Nelson called it) of fentanyl is about 5 minutes after consumption? Dr. Tobin agreed with this. We know Floyd ingested fentanyl/meth pills when police approached him in the car...the timing seems to match almost perfectly where Floyd begins to freak out with respect to when he took the fentanyl pills. It's about 5 minutes later.


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April 09, 2021, 06:22:35 AM
 #365


His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

The defense should have objected to this answer. The same is true for any conclusions Dr. Tobin made. I expect Chauvin to mount a defense that includes their own expert witnesses.

What I don't understand is how either of you can believe you actually possess more knowledge about this issue than the experts and attorneys in the courtroom. The normalization of the questioning of experts when people don't like what they have to say will be one of Trump's longest lasting legacies.





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April 09, 2021, 06:54:58 AM
 #366


His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

The defense should have objected to this answer. The same is true for any conclusions Dr. Tobin made. I expect Chauvin to mount a defense that includes their own expert witnesses.

What I don't understand is how either of you can believe you actually possess more knowledge about this issue than the experts and attorneys in the courtroom. The normalization of the questioning of experts when people don't like what they have to say will be one of Trump's longest lasting legacies.

Which issue? The objection to relevance or the 90 pounds of pressure?

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April 09, 2021, 07:13:11 AM
 #367

What I don't understand is how either of you can believe you actually possess more knowledge about this issue than the experts and attorneys in the courtroom. The normalization of the questioning of experts when people don't like what they have to say will be one of Trump's longest lasting legacies.

Which issue? The objection to relevance or the 90 pounds of pressure?

This part:

Quote
His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

Explain what the issue is. Explain why you have a better guess as to what the pressure exerted was than a licensed intensive care physician who is providing testimony under oath in the most highly publicized trial of the year.





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April 09, 2021, 07:22:26 AM
 #368

What I don't understand is how either of you can believe you actually possess more knowledge about this issue than the experts and attorneys in the courtroom. The normalization of the questioning of experts when people don't like what they have to say will be one of Trump's longest lasting legacies.

Which issue? The objection to relevance or the 90 pounds of pressure?

This part:

Quote
His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

Explain what the issue is. Explain why you have a better guess as to what the pressure exerted was than a licensed intensive care physician who is providing testimony under oath in the most highly publicized trial of the year.

I am using his own words where he says he made certain assumptions about how much Chauvin weighed, how much the gear he had on weighed, and his acknowledgement that the weight of Chauvin shifted constantly. And I already explained what the issue was. He calculated 90 pounds of pressure using a still picture from bystander video. Dr. Tobin didn't go into detail how he was able to precisely calculate 90 pounds because neither the prosecution nor the defense asked about it. And we know from earlier this week, there are portions of the BWC that *clearly* show Chauvin's knee on Floyd's upper back while the bystander video *clearly* shows the knee/shin area on the neck. So the angle is already a bit off when using the BWC.

I never said I had a better guess. Doesn't mean I can't ask questions.

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April 09, 2021, 07:30:21 AM
 #369

I am using his own words where he says he made certain assumptions about how much Chauvin weighed, how much the gear he had on weighed, and his acknowledgement that the weight of Chauvin shifted constantly. And I already explained what the issue was. He calculated 90 pounds of pressure using a still picture from bystander video. Dr. Tobin didn't go into detail how he was able to precisely calculate 90 pounds because neither the prosecution nor the defense asked about it.

Maybe they didn't ask about it because they agreed with his assessment, or else felt it wasn't worth disagreeing with? The defense did bring up the fact that the calculation was theoretical. But they didn't disagree with it like you are.

And we know from earlier this week, there are portions of the BWC that *clearly* show Chauvin's knee on Floyd's upper back while the bystander video *clearly* shows the knee/shin area on the neck. So the angle is already a bit off when using the BWC.

Did you miss the part when the doctor said anybody would have died had they been subjected to what Chauvin did to Floyd?

Quote
Dr Tobin said that Mr Floyd had already shown signs of brain injury about four minutes before Mr Chauvin took his knee off his neck, and that a healthy person who was put through this "would have died" too.

About three minutes before Mr Chauvin removed his knee, Dr Tobin said, there was "not an ounce of oxygen left in his body".

"The knee remains on the neck for another three minutes and 27 seconds after he takes his last breath," Dr Tobin said. "After the officers have found themselves that there's no pulse, the knee remains on the neck for another two minutes and 44 seconds."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56670912





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April 09, 2021, 07:42:14 AM
 #370

Maybe they didn't ask about it because they agreed with his assessment, or else felt it wasn't worth disagreeing with? The defense did bring up the fact that the calculation was theoretical. But they didn't disagree with it like you are.

Eric Nelson didn't bring it up directly. He tried to cast doubt by getting Dr. Tobin to admit that there were some assumptions made about his calculations. Nelson was pretty unprepared today, he admitted that he got all of this information last night.

Did you miss the part when the doctor said anybody would have died had they been subjected to what Chauvin did to Floyd?

If Dr. Tobin believes that 90 pounds of pressure was applied to the neck of George Floyd for 9 minutes straight, then yeah, I'm sure it would kill someone in any ordinary circumstance. I'm not disputing this. I'm disputing the figure 90 pounds because it made certain assumptions that I don't think you can make with complete certainty, and Dr. Tobin has said as much.

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April 09, 2021, 07:57:19 AM
 #371

If Dr. Tobin believes that 90 pounds of pressure was applied to the neck of George Floyd for 9 minutes straight, then yeah, I'm sure it would kill someone in any ordinary circumstance. I'm not disputing this.

That's not what he said, though. He said it was enough pressure to kill anybody, which is what is important. Regardless, I would take his word any day of the week, seeing as how he has the slightest inkling of what he is talking about and neither of us do.





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April 09, 2021, 09:05:03 AM
 #372

Its funny how people forget you once your dead, as its been said, what is dead stays dead and to some persons your existence too but not to every one. I almost forgot about this case that brought up the black lifes matters. It was a very agonising one and I suddenly started being all emotional about it once again of what pain the victim must have felt being held in that disturbing position. Where every effort to break free and catch your breath was seen as an act of insubordination!

Of course, there is always going to be some assumptions to some calculations. It can't be very precise, a little molecule, pound or what ever unit of measurement and conditions is all it takes to make a variation.
Anyway, I pray thee that this case should be considered carefully and let justice be done. BLM!

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April 10, 2021, 04:14:57 AM
 #373

Day 10 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgrnUf_XgF0

Dr. Baker testified today, he said what we knew from the autopsy report -

Floyd died from fighting with police, subdual, and neck compression with contributing factors of drug use and underlying heart conditions.

And this is in direct contradiction with Dr. Tobin's testimony who suggested the fentanyl/methamphetamine and underlying conditions did not effect Floyd and his cause of death. Hmmm....

Also worth nothing, the prosecution brought up this research paper that I linked many months ago in the thread here - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088378/


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April 10, 2021, 05:18:52 AM
 #374


His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

The defense should have objected to this answer. The same is true for any conclusions Dr. Tobin made. I expect Chauvin to mount a defense that includes their own expert witnesses.

What I don't understand is how either of you can believe you actually possess more knowledge about this issue than the experts and attorneys in the courtroom. The normalization of the questioning of experts when people don't like what they have to say will be one of Trump's longest lasting legacies.
There is no way Dr. Tobin would be able to know how much weight Chauvin put on Floyd's neck with his knee. The figure he gave was a guess.

If one of your feet (or knee) were hurt, you would probably lean on your other foot while standing, so that the hurt foot has very little pressure and the "good" foot has most of your body weight on it. The same principle applies to how much pressure Chauvin was putting on Floyd's body with his knee.


Dr. Baker testified today, he said what we knew from the autopsy report -

Floyd died from fighting with police, subdual, and neck compression with contributing factors of drug use and underlying heart conditions.
I think this is what is going to cause the reasonable doubt:
“Absent suspicious circumstances, if Floyd had been found dead in his bed with the level of fentanyl in his blood that was present for this autopsy, it may be classified a fentanyl fatality,”

Dr Baker's testimony is basically that Floyd died from the actions of another person solely because of what he saw on the video, despite evidence to the contrary.

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nutildah
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April 10, 2021, 07:49:40 AM
 #375

There is no way Dr. Tobin would be able to know how much weight Chauvin put on Floyd's neck with his knee. The figure he gave was a guess.

And your point is what exactly? Why are you attempting to undermine the claims of a medical expert?

I think this is what is going to cause the reasonable doubt:
“Absent suspicious circumstances, if Floyd had been found dead in his bed with the level of fentanyl in his blood that was present for this autopsy, it may be classified a fentanyl fatality,”

It would cause reasonable doubt with you because you're highly biased in favor of the defendant, which is why you're not part of the jury. Nobody in their right mind is going to believe that a drug overdose just happened to coincide with a police officer putting a knee on somebody's neck for 8 minutes. Overdose has been ruled out a million ways from Sunday by people whose opinions actually matter.

You both also missed this tidbit from forensic pathologist Dr. Lindsey Thomas... it's almost like you don't even register the testimony that goes against your pre-conceived notions of what happened:

Quote
There's no evidence to suggest he would have died that night, except for the interactions with law enforcement.





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April 10, 2021, 08:50:38 AM
 #376

There is no way Dr. Tobin would be able to know how much weight Chauvin put on Floyd's neck with his knee. The figure he gave was a guess.

And your point is what exactly? Why are you attempting to undermine the claims of a medical expert?

I think this is what is going to cause the reasonable doubt:
“Absent suspicious circumstances, if Floyd had been found dead in his bed with the level of fentanyl in his blood that was present for this autopsy, it may be classified a fentanyl fatality,”

It would cause reasonable doubt with you because you're highly biased in favor of the defendant, which is why you're not part of the jury. Nobody in their right mind is going to believe that a drug overdose just happened to coincide with a police officer putting a knee on somebody's neck for 8 minutes. Overdose has been ruled out a million ways from Sunday by people whose opinions actually matter.

You both also missed this tidbit from forensic pathologist Dr. Lindsey Thomas... it's almost like you don't even register the testimony that goes against your pre-conceived notions of what happened:

Quote
There's no evidence to suggest he would have died that night, except for the interactions with law enforcement.

Dr. Baker just testified that fentanyl and heart disease were contributing factors in his death. And he also said the knee to the back of the neck did NOT cut off airflow. He said no tissue damage on the exterior of the skin nor interior of the skin.

When someone says drug OD in this case, they aren't saying that he nodded off. They're saying the fatal level of fentanyl contributed to his death, and likely had it not been for his heart condition and fentanyl/methamphetamine concentration, he would have lived. But main point -- zero evidence of asphyxia, choking, and strangulation by Chauvin's knee cutting off air flow. And Dr. Baker himself said the knee was on Floyd's lower neck, shoulder blade area and upper back most of the time.

Dr. Baker said George Floyd's heart couldn't handle the restraint -- https://www.wsj.com/articles/prosecution-in-derek-chauvin-trial-set-to-call-key-witness-11617975531.

This is completely different from being asphyxiated by Chauvin's knee because it doesn't matter what your heart condition is. If your airflow is cut off, you die regardless of your underlying conditions.

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nutildah
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April 12, 2021, 12:15:16 AM
 #377

Dr. Baker said George Floyd's heart couldn't handle the restraint -- https://www.wsj.com/articles/prosecution-in-derek-chauvin-trial-set-to-call-key-witness-11617975531.

This is completely different from being asphyxiated by Chauvin's knee because it doesn't matter what your heart condition is. If your airflow is cut off, you die regardless of your underlying conditions.

Not really. Both end in the same result: homicide. Both outcomes were due to Chauvin's actions.

The prosecution had a good line that was quickly objected to, but it pretty much sums up the defense's grand argument at this point:

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"Mrs. Lincoln, if we take John Wilkes Booth out of this ..."

Does it really matter if Abe Lincoln had an underlying heart condition?





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April 14, 2021, 03:36:26 AM
 #378

Horrible day for the defense. Their use of force expert got absolutely pummeled today because the prosecution knows they can use emotions and hindsight to convince jurors that Chauvin "should've" known. Never mind numerous state witnesses openly admitting that restraint until EMS can be held, that restraint can be held on drug users because they can regain consciousness and become more violent.

Self defense lawyer Andrew Branca says it best in his blog post - https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/chauvin-trial-day-12-wrap-up-defense-use-of-force-expert-witness-falls-short/

Basically, the direct was extremely weak, and the cross examination was extremely rough. But, if we are taking what Mr. Brodd has to say, someone that has been in FBI tactics training, certified by the FBI, testified in 10 previous court cases, defensive training instructor, and a police officer with a total of **30 years experience**, he says the force was justified.

Also worth nothing, the prosecution's medical experts have all contradicted each other.

Dr. Thomas - Contradicts Dr. Baker, claims positional asphyxia was the cause of death combined with contributing factors of fentanyl use/heart disease.

Dr. Tobin - Underlying factors have nothing to do with Floyd's death, not fentanyl, not meth, not heart conditions, he was suffocated due to the knee on the back of the neck. Tobin claims Floyd died on scene. Contradicts Dr. Baker because he testified Floyd died later. Also contradicts him and Dr. Thomas because underlying factors did play a role, according to them.

ER doc (forgot his name) - Claims Floyd's heart conditions did not play a role in his death. Contradicts both Dr. Thomas and Dr. Baker.


But for some reason, we all need to ignore this. And yes, I think the jury might as well be incompetent. Courtroom reporters are saying that some of the jurors are falling asleep during the trial. You are a moron and you are incompetent to fall asleep during the biggest trial in decades.

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April 14, 2021, 03:54:55 AM
 #379

But for some reason, we all need to ignore this. And yes, I think the jury might as well be incompetent. Courtroom reporters are saying that some of the jurors are falling asleep during the trial. You are a moron and you are incompetent to fall asleep during the biggest trial in decades.

Oh come on now. I enjoy reading your recaps even if I disagree with some on your opinions therein, but do you really to start blaming the jurors in advance just in case they end up rendering a verdict that you may not like. They've been vetted by defense and prosecution, and they can be replaced if the judge deems necessary. Until and unless that happens they're competent.

Not to mention that it would favor the defense if they sleep through the emotional appeals that you mentioned so perhaps they should just all sleep to avoid any emotional influence... why put jurors in the courtroom at all - just have them read the transcripts and decide based on that.

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April 14, 2021, 04:07:51 AM
Last edit: April 14, 2021, 04:58:14 AM by Gyfts
 #380

But for some reason, we all need to ignore this. And yes, I think the jury might as well be incompetent. Courtroom reporters are saying that some of the jurors are falling asleep during the trial. You are a moron and you are incompetent to fall asleep during the biggest trial in decades.

Oh come on now. I enjoy reading your recaps even if I disagree with some on your opinions therein, but do you really to start blaming the jurors in advance just in case they end up rendering a verdict that you may not like. They've been vetted by defense and prosecution, and they can be replaced if the judge deems necessary. Until and unless that happens they're competent.

Not to mention that it would favor the defense if they sleep through the emotional appeals that you mentioned so perhaps they should just all sleep to avoid any emotional influence... why put jurors in the courtroom at all - just have them read the transcripts and decide based on that.

Derek Chauvin is entitled to a fair trial, it's not fair to have jurors be sleeping while testimony is being presented. As a juror, requesting that you stay away is the LEAST anyone could ask for. Even if the person sleeps during the prosecution's testimony, it's still not fair for the state side. I just don't understand how a juror wouldn't show the slightest amount of respect by remaining alert during this thing.

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