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ChrisJ (OP)
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March 21, 2014, 06:41:20 PM
Last edit: March 27, 2014, 09:49:48 PM by ChrisJ |
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I'd really like to get everyone's feedback on something. I have managed to get some free space London's O2 which is a huge venue and a bit of a coup. I know I am insane and have thrown myself in waaay too far at the wrong side of the pool but I'm doing it anyway and want to get people here involved. This is what the venue looks like on the inside: It has a 16x9 foot screen behind it as well on which I plan to place Mr Antonopoulos : )The concept A live adversarial debate on the state of Bitcoin following the hacks on its ecosystem. Here are some initial thoughts:
The issue I want to address is that while Satoshi got the protocol locked down pretty tight his innovation didn't allow for human error. It's all very well having a really secure piece of software but if exchanges etc have sloppy code then it is all undermined.
Trowing technology at some of the problems we face is not going to make them go away. Is Bitcoin just a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another?
Code is the new law. Are coders the right people to be deciding what's right and what should be legislated?
Barclays have PingIt and there are many other emerging p2p payment networks so is Bitcoin even necessary as a standalone currency? Why can't the banking system simply integrate Bitcoins open source code in to their existing infrastructure?I do not hold these views myself, I just want to address them as I hear them being raised by critics and think they need exploration. Andreas Antonopoulos and I will be taking part, Max Keiser will be appearing later in the evening but have asked if he can attend earlier. I even have received interest from Barclays and Lloyds to take part in the debate. I want your ideas, suggestions and questions that you would like to see addressed. I can select key questions from this thread and raise them on the day. EDIT 27/3: Speakers for the panel are now confirmed and 110 people already signed upEDIT 22/3: Andreas has had to cancel along with some other speaking arrangements https://twitter.com/aantonop/status/447102361815617536Am working hard now on finding a replacement, any ideas/help are welcome. |
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Tron
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March 21, 2014, 07:27:48 PM |
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>> Is Bitcoin just a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another?
All commerce is a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another. Voluntary redistribution of wealth is a good thing.
When properly structured, the wealth flows to those that truly add value, and only voluntarily based on a win-win transaction.
I'll leave it up the reader to decide whether the current banking system, and 'quantitative easing' meet that criteria.
The question I would like asked and answered:
"Why would a bank not accept a business involved in Bitcoin? It looks and smells like capricious behavior. It seems to me that the bank's job should be to make sure deposits are safe, and only withdrawn by the owner directly or through a negotiable instrument. I understand turning down a loan request because the perceived risk might be higher than say a widget manufacturer. But where is their risk with deposits and withdrawals?"
Tron
Founder, CoinCPA
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coinft
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March 21, 2014, 07:50:15 PM |
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>> Is Bitcoin just a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another?
All commerce is a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another. Voluntary redistribution of wealth is a good thing.
When properly structured, the wealth flows to those that truly add value, and only voluntarily based on a win-win transaction.
I'll leave it up the reader to decide whether the current banking system, and 'quantitative easing' meet that criteria.
The question I would like asked and answered:
"Why would a bank not accept a business involved in Bitcoin? It looks and smells like capricious behavior. It seems to me that the bank's job should be to make sure deposits are safe, and only withdrawn by the owner directly or through a negotiable instrument. I understand turning down a loan request because the perceived risk might be higher than say a widget manufacturer. But where is their risk with deposits and withdrawals?"
Tron
Founder, CoinCPA
If you are quietly involved in criminal activities it is unwise to draw additional attention and publicity by offering services officials might take an interest in. |
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rat
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March 21, 2014, 07:58:39 PM |
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here's an idea:
stop all the bitcoin vs. x bullshit.
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ChrisJ (OP)
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March 21, 2014, 09:39:37 PM |
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here's an idea:
stop all the bitcoin vs. x bullshit.
Okay so if you were given £10k worth of prime space what would you do with it? |
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CountMyCrypto
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March 22, 2014, 05:56:33 PM |
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Hi Chris, I've DM'd you separately but thought I'd contribute here to get other people involved in the dialogue. I've got a few main points that I personally would like to see debated in an adversarial way, just to get the ball rolling:
1. Bitcoin as a force for good I think so much of the MSM on Bitcoin so far has been around the 'get rich quick' and potentially criminal uses for Bitcoin (eg all the headlines about Silk Road, etc) while there has been little discussion of the properly democratic benefits that can come when currencies are decentralised and handed to the people who use them. This week's interview with Elizabeth from BitPesa on The Keiser Report was a good example - until I listened to this, I had no idea of the sheer scale of charges that Western Union impose on some of the poorest people in the world, and which they will no longer have to bear once BitPesa is up and running. How can the banks possibly defend this?
2. Does it matter whether Bitcoin succeeds? This sounds like a contentious question but surely it is the protocol that is the interesting and revolutionary thing, not whether one particular coin succeeds. This should be a wider debate about cryptos in general, not just the obvious one.
3. Decentralisation The transparency of the blockchain makes it awesome. Creditors have an unprecedented degree of access to records of transactions, which is helping people get to the bottom of the Gox debacle quickly. Try making a crooked bank's books available after the event. What can the banks offer in comparison in terms of access to their information?
4. Are the banks running scared? If the banks - as they say repeatedly - are not bothered by virtual currencies, why are Goldman Sachs etc bothering to write lengthy reports? They are saying and doing two different things.
I think what you are trying to do at the O2 is amazing and I hope you can involve enough people to give this event the publicity it deserves.
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acoindr
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March 22, 2014, 07:23:09 PM |
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It's all very well having a really secure piece of software but if exchanges etc have sloppy code then it is all undermined.
No, it's not. Exchanges do not equal Bitcoin. Localbitcoins.com, for example, does just fine and the transactions take place manually, in person (or manually online). MtGox had horrible business practices and imploded. Bitcoin is still here. So the above statement is clearly false. Trowing technology at some of the problems we face is not going to make them go away.
Who suggested it would? Is Bitcoin just a redistribution of wealth from one group of people to another?
No. Code is the new law.
No, law is the law, and no law means anything anyway unless followed and enforced. Are coders the right people to be deciding what's right and what should be legislated?
What? Barclays have PingIt and there are many other emerging p2p payment networks so is Bitcoin even necessary as a standalone currency? Yes. Why can't the banking system simply integrate Bitcoins open source code in to their existing infrastructure?
Ask them. I do not hold these views myself
Thank goodness we cleared that up. What are we talking about then? I just want to address them as I hear them being raised by critics and think they need exploration.
What a waste of time and venue to explore questions I just addressed IMO quite satisfactorily in less than 2 minutes with a forum reply. EDIT: sorry for not actually contributing alternative ideas. I'll try and think on it. |
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pening
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March 22, 2014, 07:37:05 PM |
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here's an idea:
stop all the bitcoin vs. x bullshit.
Okay so if you were given £10k worth of prime space what would you do with it? How about promoting it on its own terms. Sell its advantages. vs "the banks" makes it political and you are saying what doesn't do, which you don't like. The audience may either not care, not agree or outright not like what you are saying. You're selling a negative story, sell the positives instead. |
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cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
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March 22, 2014, 08:03:10 PM |
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vs "the banks" makes it political and you are saying what doesn't do, which you don't like.
There is nothing political about it. It is a philosophical debate between two competing financial theories. It's not about what anyone "likes." Technological advancements demand updated systems that don't hinder progress. |
Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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pening
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March 23, 2014, 12:26:05 AM |
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vs "the banks" makes it political and you are saying what doesn't do, which you don't like.
There is nothing political about it. It is a philosophical debate between two competing financial theories. It's not about what anyone "likes." Technological advancements demand updated systems that don't hinder progress. Using the term "the Banks" makes it political as it is a heavily loaded phrase. Want to be philosophical (really, economics at best) about it, put it in suitable terms, as you have with emphasis on the technological difference. |
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cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
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March 23, 2014, 12:40:45 AM |
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vs "the banks" makes it political and you are saying what doesn't do, which you don't like.
There is nothing political about it. It is a philosophical debate between two competing financial theories. It's not about what anyone "likes." Technological advancements demand updated systems that don't hinder progress. Using the term "the Banks" makes it political as it is a heavily loaded phrase. Want to be philosophical (really, economics at best) about it, put it in suitable terms, as you have with emphasis on the technological difference. A "heavily loaded phrase" is by definition, a fallacious argument, not a political one. Your claim is that there is some implied meaning in the term that is associated with a political position. What is that specific position you are implying? |
Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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Crindon
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March 23, 2014, 05:55:32 AM |
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Bitcoin is here to stay.
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ChrisJ (OP)
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March 23, 2014, 09:11:03 AM |
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surely it is the protocol that is the interesting and revolutionary thing, not whether one particular coin succeeds.
I completely agree. One of the central criticisms of Bitcoin is that most of its price is mostly backed by a speculative sentiment, people are just waiting to get rich off of circumstance and relying on the effort of others (developers and entrepreneurs). So raising the topic this way may help us explore what really lies beneath the price because we can talk about the core values behind the protocol and the community and trust it takes to sustain it over time to gain trust. 3. Decentralisation The transparency of the blockchain makes it awesome. Creditors have an unprecedented degree of access to records of transactions, which is helping people get to the bottom of the Gox debacle quickly. Try making a crooked bank's books available after the event. What can the banks offer in comparison in terms of access to their information?
This point is very well made, I am definitely putting that one in. Imagine if Lehman Bros had a blockchain. 4. Are the banks running scared? If the banks - as they say repeatedly - are not bothered by virtual currencies, why are Goldman Sachs etc bothering to write lengthy reports? They are saying and doing two different things.
Yes we can bring up issues like fees and cheque kiting and ask them to justify themselves. |
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southerngentuk
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March 23, 2014, 09:36:45 AM |
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I am not sure we need to start a war with the banksters just yet. If your looking for subject matter I found this an interesting read earlier today from Techcrunch. http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/22/enter-the-blockchain-how-bitcoin-can-turn-the-cloud-inside-out/Just a snippet You see, it’s not that hard to imagine other blockchain-based systems which aren’t currencies and don’t attract as many “colorful personalities.” Suppose you replaced the Internet’s centralized Domain Name System with a blockchain for Internet names (like Namecoin) such that every DNS request included some proof-of-work effort. Or you used any blockchain (including Bitcoin’s) as a notary service. Or you built a new blockchain for crowdfunding. Or you replaced a centralized system which absolutely does need to be scrapped — that horrific barrel of worms known as TLS/SSL Certificate Authorities — with a blockchain-based solution powered at the browser level.
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ChrisJ (OP)
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March 23, 2014, 10:05:07 AM |
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Code is the new law.
No, law is the law, and no law means anything anyway unless followed and enforced. Thank-you for taking the time to deal with each point. I just want to focus on this one for now, I don't mean the law literally, I am talking about human enforceable rules. I take as my assumption that there are two kinds of laws in our world, human laws which can be broken and natural laws which cannot. There is also an assumption that human laws rely on enforcement in order to be effective. When you code you are baking rules in to an experience in such a way that it makes it very difficult to break without hacking the system itself. Andreas and other commentators have said that the regulation of Bitcoin lies in the code itself. So on this basis is it not relevant to ask who decides on who makes those laws or rules if you prefer? I look forward to hearing your suggestions. |
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ChrisJ (OP)
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March 23, 2014, 10:07:10 AM |
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Should Bitcoin regulate the Banks? I got this tweet the other day from @pierebel @MrChrisEllis Bitcoin can regulate Government and Banks, we should really be spinning it around on them. There's no need to regulate code |
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ChrisJ (OP)
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March 23, 2014, 10:51:22 AM |
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I am not sure we need to start a war with the banksters just yet. If your looking for subject matter I found this an interesting read earlier today from Techcrunch. http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/22/enter-the-blockchain-how-bitcoin-can-turn-the-cloud-inside-out/Just a snippet You see, it’s not that hard to imagine other blockchain-based systems which aren’t currencies and don’t attract as many “colorful personalities.” Suppose you replaced the Internet’s centralized Domain Name System with a blockchain for Internet names (like Namecoin) such that every DNS request included some proof-of-work effort. Or you used any blockchain (including Bitcoin’s) as a notary service. Or you built a new blockchain for crowdfunding. Or you replaced a centralized system which absolutely does need to be scrapped — that horrific barrel of worms known as TLS/SSL Certificate Authorities — with a blockchain-based solution powered at the browser level.
I don't intend for it to be a way, disagreeing and debating doesn't mean falling out. In fact one of the reasons I love wisdom (philosophy) so much is that you can learn from an adversary and still be friends afterwards. That article was great by the way, thanks for sharing, I loved this quote: We put so much care into making the Internet resilient from technical failures, but make no effort to make it resilient to political failure. We treat freedom and the rule of law like inexhaustible natural resources, rather than the fragile and precious treasures that they are. And now, of course, it’s time to make the Internet of Things, where we will connect everything to everything else, and build cool apps on top, and nothing can possibly go wrong. This is what I meant by throwing technology at a problem without so much attention on the social aspects of it. |
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JunkieMiner
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March 23, 2014, 05:51:18 PM |
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It's nice that this is a philosophical debate ane there is nothing political about it
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cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
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March 24, 2014, 07:23:55 AM |
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Andreas and other commentators have said that the regulation of Bitcoin lies in the code itself. So on this basis is it not relevant to ask who decides on who makes those laws or rules if you prefer? I look forward to hearing your suggestions. Satoshi published the rules for Bitcoin in his whitepaper. Subsequent altcoin creators sometimes create their own set of rules. It's your choice which rules you feel are best. |
Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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