Decentralized currencies but Centralized trading

[Sanitough]

Exchange will always be the last platform that we need since bitcoin does has not gain a massive adoption yet.
People will still rely on fiat as everything can be purchase with fiat, and you are right "Decentralized currencies but Centralized trading", that's the norm even in the future as bitcoin can never beat fiat in terms of adoption.

Bitcoin has always been an alternative as payment system, let's accept the reality.

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[squatz1]

Well, because we do not trust the dex exchanges? I mean they are really not looking all that well whereas the centralized trading looks very trustworthy.

What? Which centralized exchanges are trustworthy? Even the biggest and most well known exchanges have been hacked and had coins stolen, been hacked and had private information and KYC documents stolen, been caught insider trading, sold customers' data to third parties, handed over customers' data to various governments, listed various scams and shitcoins to dump on their customers, locked and frozen accounts without warning, stolen funds, the list goes on, and on, and on. Centralized exchanges are anything buy trustworthy.

All those billions of dollars worth of bitcoin lost because of small exchanges being "hacked" made everyone go enough!

The vast majority of "small" exchanges which are hacked are centralized exchanges. This is not an argument against DEXs. Most of the time, when trading with DEXs, your funds are still under your control and so can't be hacked in the same way that a centralized exchange can be.

There is really not even a single reason to move to another exchange if you can find your pairs here and trade here.

There are plenty of reasons to change exchanges. When Coinbase revealed that they sell your data to a variety of unknown third parties without your consent, and they formed a partnership with a company who develop and sell surveillance software to human rights abusing dictators, everyone with a shred of sense should have stopped using them immediately.

Unsure if we're reading the same news articles and stuff here, though this is what I've found from CoinBases own website - https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/privacy-and-security/data-privacy/gdpr-data-request-faq.html - regarding their usage of your data. Take that as you will, but the news stories that have come out recently (if you're referring to those) are talking about a blockchain surveilance / crypto tracking tool that they've offered to sell the usage to the DEA / IRS.

They're not just going ahead and sending your tax data to the IRS -- that wouldn't be legal unless you're under some sort of audit and the government got a subpoena for that, or if you hit the threshold to be issued a 1099.

[o_e_l_e_o]

They're not just going ahead and sending your tax data to the IRS -- that wouldn't be legal unless you're under some sort of audit and the government got a subpoena for that, or if you hit the threshold to be issued a 1099.

That's exactly what happened 2 years ago. Coinbase sent the details of over 13,000 of their customers directly to the IRS, and told the customers affected to "seek legal advice" - https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/taxes-reports-and-financial-services/taxes/irs-notification.html

And a year ago, one of Coinbase's executives Christine Sandler admitted user data was being sold to third parties: https://news.yahoo.com/coinbase-former-provider-sold-user-084900709.html. This was at the same time they partnered up with the surveillance company Neutrino/Hacking Team. There's a good write up here of just how immoral these people are: https://breakermag.com/coinbases-newest-team-members-helped-authoritarians-worldwide-monitor-journalists-and-dissidents/.

The most recent news (which I actually hadn't read yet when I made that last post), is just as concerning as the above. These same people inside Coinbase who made monitoring software for dictators are now working with the US government. Given their previous atrocious history, it's not exactly a huge leap to suspect that some user data is going to change hands here.

[squatz1]

They're not just going ahead and sending your tax data to the IRS -- that wouldn't be legal unless you're under some sort of audit and the government got a subpoena for that, or if you hit the threshold to be issued a 1099.

That's exactly what happened 2 years ago. Coinbase sent the details of over 13,000 of their customers directly to the IRS, and told the customers affected to "seek legal advice" - https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/taxes-reports-and-financial-services/taxes/irs-notification.html

And a year ago, one of Coinbase's executives Christine Sandler admitted user data was being sold to third parties: https://news.yahoo.com/coinbase-former-provider-sold-user-084900709.html. This was at the same time they partnered up with the surveillance company Neutrino/Hacking Team. There's a good write up here of just how immoral these people are: https://breakermag.com/coinbases-newest-team-members-helped-authoritarians-worldwide-monitor-journalists-and-dissidents/.

The most recent news (which I actually hadn't read yet when I made that last post), is just as concerning as the above. These same people inside Coinbase who made monitoring software for dictators are now working with the US government. Given their previous atrocious history, it's not exactly a huge leap to suspect that some user data is going to change hands here.

Ah. I was assuming that you had been talking about the most recent neutrino news stories. But yeah, there are a good deal of stories regarding Coinbase doing this and doing that and being the devil incarnate (/s obviosuly)

Though I think it's important to note that when discussing the 13k customers that were sent to the IRS -- They had fought in court to bring that number down from 500k that the IRS had initially requested. The new criteria (which the 13k people fit within) and the court agreed with was 200 transcations and 20k in volume in one year (https://help.coinbase.com/en/pro/taxes-reports-and-financial-services/taxes/1099-k-tax-forms-faq-for-coinbase-pro-prime-merchant) Which is a typical number for transcations.

Totally not a fan of the data selling to third parties, though I see you can opt out of that stuff here - https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/privacy-and-security/data-privacy/gdpr-data-request-faq.html - though I mean, if it's already been sold what good is that, lol.

Not trying to play devils advocate here, just want people to know all the facts.

Either way, Coinbase / Gemini are it for a good amount of people in the US (Kraken and Binance US for some states, not all though)

[Blue_oxen]

What's the point of using a decentralized currency if next to it people use a centralized platform for trading? Oh I know, follow the money...
This shows that people are not really interested in decentralization and that the P2P trade/trading/payment methods cannot develop properly.

Well, that's pretty much the reason, and I don't think we should expect things to change anytime soon. The cryptocurrency markets as a whole is pretty much a casino in the first place, and just like gambling on a casino, it can be quite addictive. People really wouldn't care about hard money and self sovereignty because most are currently not being threatened by the consequences.

You're right. Additionally, I see governments create a part of difficulties for cryptocurrencies to achieve their goal. They wanna keep their fiat money in the market without letting anything replacing it. The cryptocurrency was founded to be a new method of payment worldwide, however, it's now more like a casino (like you said) or a stockmarket where people take advantage of it to earn profits. It's not wrong that we earn profits based on cryptocurrency but it's sad to say that the cryptocurrency market's value has changed.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Totally not a fan of the data selling to third parties, though I see you can opt out of that stuff here - https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/privacy-and-security/data-privacy/gdpr-data-request-faq.html - though I mean, if it's already been sold what good is that, lol.

The mere fact that you have to "opt out" of them doing whatever they like with your data is bad enough as it is. They also have a clause which permits them to continue to hold and use your data subject to "regulatory retention or record keeping requirements", which is essentially carte blanche to do what they like. gentlemand also pointed out to me in another thread yesterday that even the EU's GDPR contains a similar clause to allow "financial institutions" to continue to hold your data.

You should assume that any data you give to a centralized exchange such as Coinbase will never be deleted from their servers, because in all likelihood, it won't be.

Either way, Coinbase / Gemini are it for a good amount of people in the US

I've never used either, and have no problems exchanging bitcoin to fiat and vice versa using peer to peer trades or DEXs.

[squatz1]

Totally not a fan of the data selling to third parties, though I see you can opt out of that stuff here - https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/privacy-and-security/data-privacy/gdpr-data-request-faq.html - though I mean, if it's already been sold what good is that, lol.

The mere fact that you have to "opt out" of them doing whatever they like with your data is bad enough as it is. They also have a clause which permits them to continue to hold and use your data subject to "regulatory retention or record keeping requirements", which is essentially carte blanche to do what they like. gentlemand also pointed out to me in another thread yesterday that even the EU's GDPR contains a similar clause to allow "financial institutions" to continue to hold your data.

You should assume that any data you give to a centralized exchange such as Coinbase will never be deleted from their servers, because in all likelihood, it won't be.

Either way, Coinbase / Gemini are it for a good amount of people in the US

I've never used either, and have no problems exchanging bitcoin to fiat and vice versa using peer to peer trades or DEXs.

Oh that wasn't me endorsing the fact that 'everything is okay because they let you opt out' that's totally not what I meant in saying all of that. It was just something that people should be aware of, and it COULD help in terms of privacy. But yes -- even the most strict laws relating to privacy (like the GDPR) are going to let financial institutions keep data for AML/KYC reasons.

If you don't mind me asking, what are the spreads and fees like on the DEX's that you're working with? I've found that to be a common problem on these platforms.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If you don't mind me asking, what are the spreads and fees like on the DEX's that you're working with? I've found that to be a common problem on these platforms.

The spreads are very variable, and fluctuate markedly depending on which fiat or altcoin you are trading for, which fiat methods you are willing to use, how much of a hurry you are in, and what offers are on the platform at the time. Usually in the region of a few percent. Since I am rarely in a hurry and very patient with my trades, if I am buying BTC I usually end up paying around 1% above market rate, but if I am selling I can get around 3-5% above market rate.

Fees are pretty reasonable. Bisq currently has a 0.2% maker fee and 0.6% taker fee, but you can cut those in half of more if you pay using BSQ token. You also pay a security deposit which you get back in full following a successful trade, and a mining fee of a couple thousand satoshi. LocalCryptos has a 0.25% maker and 0.75% taker fee.

[old fart]

it is pretty sad but the truth remains that most decentralized exchanges(DEX) are difficult to use and limited to spot trading whereas centralised exchanges (cex) has spot trading, futures and lending too just like the case in Coinex , the options are more in centralized exchanges. Although newer dex are being built to meet to current demand, you might want to try out coinex.net, a dex, and see how the dex ecosystem is fairing.

[Tccrypto]

Talking about KYC, I know of https://changenow.io/ where you don't really need your personal details to make crypto/crypto exchange. I use that most of the time and it is effective for anonymous swaps.

[cheezcarls]

Decentralized currencies but centralized trading, that's the reality.

And a study that shows that once again, according to this report, 4 exchange platforms share 90% of the Bitcoin's trading volume (Coinbase, Bitstamp, Bitfinex et Kraken). (It also reminded me of an old article showing that 2/3 of the transactions were related only to trading activities by the way.)

What's the point of using a decentralized currency if next to it people use a centralized platform for trading? Oh I know, follow the money...
This shows that people are not really interested in decentralization and that the P2P trade/trading/payment methods cannot develop properly. If there is no demand there will be no supply and the ecosystem cannot evolve correctly.
(I'm not even talking about the fact that the majority is only interested to speculate)

The question also arises as to the future of these platforms which are acquiring more and more influence over the years, such as Binance or Coinbase for example, which are buying up companies or introducing much broader products than a simple trading platform.

Doesn't that remind you GAFA? (to compare)

We are no longer in 2013 where users had little choice. We have everything we need, more or less, to do without them.
Keep using centralized exchanges and complete the KYC, in less than 10 years they all will be hated.

The issue that I have with decentralized exchanges is that they’re not really user-friendly. Despite that it removes such things like KYC, the trading costs are high and transactions are kinda slow due to order books that are under off-chain/on-chain. Cancellation of orders are expensive, trade failure situations and limitations of order types like more complex orders that cannot be created anymore which relies on third party assistance such as stop-loss or so.

Even though it has some advantages like security, custody, listing diversification, etc., I would rather go for CEXs for trading purposes. Despite that we don’t have the custody of the coins and tokens we have or KYC requirement in the CEXs, the trading fee is cheap and transactions are fast. They’re just vulnerable to hacks though, so it’s up to them to implement out-of-the-box security features that would make the hackers or intruders having hard time to breach the platform.

[sana54210]

I do not get all this need for a decentralized exchange, do you really need it? What will be the purpose of it? I understand that money is decentralized in bitcoin world but even that is not decentralized anymore, look at all the ICO's and IEO's and all that, project owners print out hundreds of millions of tokens and give you some millions and call it decentralized, well it is not, they make changes on it like crazy and people accept it and just continue. How could that be decentralized?

Even currencies are not decentralized so whats the point of an exchange to be decentralized. The difference between currency and exchange is that currency is the thing you use to buy something, exchange is a company, it is a business, a business doesn't have to be decentralized at all.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I do not get all this need for a decentralized exchange, do you really need it? What will be the purpose of it?

So I can keep control of my own coins. So I don't have to give away my privacy by submitting to ridiculous KYC requirements. So I don't have to risk having my identity stolen by an exchange selling or being hacked for my details. So I don't have a centralized exchange tracking all my deposits and withdrawals. So I don't have someone else telling me what I can and cannot do with my own money. So I can trade safely, securely, privately. So I don't have to trust a third party - the entire point of bitcoin in the first place.

I understand that money is decentralized in bitcoin world but even that is not decentralized anymore, look at all the ICO's and IEO's and all that

99.9% of ICOs and IEOs (and altcoins and tokens) are centralized scams. However, this impacts not at all on the decentralization of bitcoin.