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Author Topic: Global Migration of Millionaires. Can Bitcoin change this scenario?  (Read 548 times)
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July 28, 2020, 05:28:54 PM
Merited by LoyceV (2)
 #1

I saw this image today. It shows the migration of millionaires around the world.

We see clearly millionaires moving from more  repressive countries to freer ones.

Millionaires are probably moving away from countries which try to steal their money. With bitcoin adoption, rich people won't need to run away with their money, they can just convert it to bitcoin to protect themselves.


Source: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/global-migration-of-millionaires/


For those who think China will dominate the world in a few years.. wealth continue to flow out of their country. I  believe it will fall just like URSS did few decades ago. Dictatorships are never good for economies in long term

Everyone wants freedom. Bitcoin will certainly make the world freer.

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July 28, 2020, 06:15:50 PM
 #2

Some of those countries with strict laws extended that to Bitcoin with some regulating it and some banning its use outrightly. While most nations in the freer zones are less stringent and has a cryptocurrency friendly environment, encouraging its use.
It's possible for some people to go through the hoops in areas where Bitcoin is restricted but if they are wealthy enough they could rather choose to move to a more friendly environment and live comfortably.

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July 28, 2020, 06:28:47 PM
 #3

Millionaires move out of their respective countries not of security issues, but to have a better living experience. Though they get everything at the doorsteps they love to have a life same as a common men's. As in the OP millionaires moving out of the country is same as money flow out of the country. This is bad for a country's economy, and giving freedom on each and everything these people can be made to stay in the country.

Bitcoin has nothing to do with the migration of millionaires. It has provided them with the financial freedom, which means they can spend whenever required without asking it to the banks.

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July 28, 2020, 06:38:31 PM
 #4

With bitcoin adoption, rich people won't need to run away with their money, they can just convert it to bitcoin to protect themselves.

If you have the means you leave shitholes for quality of life as much as anything. Everyone would do it if they could afford it.

Would I rather live in a penthouse apartment in Murmansk or the Bahamas? The latter sounds a bit more fun.

Even if tax rates were lower in the place you left and there was no question of your wealth being nicked most people would still prefer to be somewhere that didn't make you want to top yourself every time you walked out your front door.
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July 28, 2020, 06:47:06 PM
 #5

Some millionaire move there wealth not because of the countries they are in will steal it but because they stole the money and are looking for countries to hide it away in, large millions if not billions leaves African countries to other countries from corrupt leaders/politicians and are hidden off.
I hope bitcoin does not become like an -option/alternative- for these likes.

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July 28, 2020, 07:10:39 PM
Merited by LoyceV (2)
 #6

Millionaires are probably moving away from countries which try to steal their money. With bitcoin adoption, rich people won't need to run away with their money, they can just convert it to bitcoin to protect themselves.

Bitcoin is not some silver bullet that solves problems once and for all. It still can be confiscated easily with physical violence. And millionaires usually have access to offshore accounts, so Bitcoin isn't exactly something game-changing here.

Bitcoin can actually make capital flight even easier, because it's easy to transport and send abroad.

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July 28, 2020, 08:37:55 PM
 #7


With bitcoin adoption, rich people won't need to run away with their money, they can just convert it to bitcoin to protect themselves.

If you have the means you leave shitholes for quality of life as much as anything. Everyone would do it if they could afford it.

Would I rather live in a penthouse apartment in Murmansk or the Bahamas? The latter sounds a bit more fun.

Even if tax rates were lower in the place you left and there was no question of your wealth being nicked most people would still prefer to be somewhere that didn't make you want to top yourself every time you walked out your front door.

Yep A comfortable quality life would make me leave my country if I can just afford to leave somewhere else. Bahamas would be good even if I just leave in a small unit. However, I am not a milionaire which is a problem  Cheesy 

I'm still going ot wish millionaires are going ot move their money to BTC, help the economy of BTC and pump it to $1M if possible.



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July 28, 2020, 11:49:20 PM
 #8

Millionaires can easily migrate considering the connection that they have and I also believe that those millionaires will continue to travel until they found their safe haven. China is still safe to live base on many documentaries that I watched but considering how the government runs China, I think those millionaires are also thinking about their protection and securities.

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July 29, 2020, 04:38:35 AM
Merited by LoyceV (2)
 #9

Aren't most migrations just up to having a place that they could stay at of which they enjoy? Heck, even if there was Bitcoin, I'd still honestly opt to leave China if I were to be living there, which I'm not btw. Besides, US could plainly be said to be the center right now, with its domination over other countries. China is fighting it, but hell, I'd choose US if I were to be asked to pick between the two. Millionaires don't even need to pick a country they'd think they need to stay in for safety, they choose a country that could let them retain their wealth for as long as possible.
Some millionaire move there wealth not because of the countries they are in will steal it but because they stole the money and are looking for countries to hide it away in, large millions if not billions leaves African countries to other countries from corrupt leaders/politicians and are hidden off.
I hope bitcoin does not become like an -option/alternative- for these likes.
Well, it's not as they could stay after stealing much money from the citizens. It's actually almost a natural action to be done, and if someone didn't do as such even after stealing billions, then hell the backing behind them probably is a power equal to that of the president of the country, or even greater.

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July 29, 2020, 04:55:25 AM
 #10

Interesting infographic. But are you sure it's because of freedom only? Because UK is a pretty free country as far as I know why are numbers in negative there? I think people move out of countries like China and India in exploring better opportunities and better flavour of living. I mean even if you make a list of normal people the metric would still more or less be same. So it's not the millionaires who are migrating in this direction. Talking about Chinese Economy I think it's hard to compare it with USSR. USSR broke due to it's internal conflicts while same is not the case with China because it promotes nationalism a lot. So people have some sort of nationalism blindfold on their eyes. They might lose Hong Kong etc. But breaking of China looks much more complicated.
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July 29, 2020, 05:51:29 AM
 #11

Everyone wants freedom. Bitcoin will certainly make the world freer.
This may be true, but imo bitcoin cannot stop millionaires from migrating if they feel the need to, if i am a HNWI for example, I'd definitely leave my present country to somewhere much better; there's no one reason why millionaires are migrating, it could be because of how dictatorial their government is, security can also be another different reason, causes of migration varies and even with millions of bitcoins, people can still decide to migrate.
For those who think China will dominate the world in a few years.. wealth continue to flow out of their country. I  believe it will fall just like URSS did few decades ago. Dictatorships are never good for economies in long term
I think China are going to get themselves into more economic wars, if not a military war, with other great countries of the world due to their dictatorial policies, and this will prevent their economy from rising as much as it should in decades to come.

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July 29, 2020, 05:54:46 AM
Merited by bitmover (1)
 #12

Millionaires are probably moving away from countries which try to steal their money.
That's called taxes Wink
And I can imagine this is a large reason for rich people to move to another country, while it's also a reason not to tax capital too much: countries don't want to scare off their rich people.

Converting your money to Bitcoin won't change a thing, unless you plan to hide it from authorities and taxes. And even if you succeed in doing so, you'll have some serious explaining to do if you move from - say - Russia to - say - the US and start selling thousands of Bitcoins.

Now forget about personal wealth, and take a look at the total migration map:
Image loading...
Although this map partially overlaps with OP's map, it looks like national wealth has more to do with migration than personal wealth. People migrate from poorer to richer countries. Bitcoin won't change that.

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July 29, 2020, 07:33:48 AM
 #13

It´s just like with perpetual travellers, flag theory says go to that country that treats you best or where you can do business the easiest. The numbers need to be adjusted though, since China as x-fold times more people than many other countries so the info is misleading (on purpose maybe?). What baffles me is that people move to Germany and even more pointless to France. Both are hogh tax countries with questionable economics, as in Germanys case camouflaged by some big players while many retired workers suffer from poverty
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July 29, 2020, 10:10:24 AM
Merited by bitmover (1)
 #14

Interesting infographic. But are you sure it's because of freedom only? Because UK is a pretty free country as far as I know why are numbers in negative there? I think people move out of countries like China and India in exploring better opportunities and better flavour of living. I mean even if you make a list of normal people the metric would still more or less be same. So it's not the millionaires who are migrating in this direction.

The motives of the population of China and India, all over the world, have different motives. Migration from China to the whole world is known as the diaspora. Diaspora actually became a government program, because China is not a country, China is civilization. The majority who work abroad and live in other countries are employees of Chinese state-owned enterprises who have also been trained and militarized and military educated to survive in other countries. At present, almost all countries in China always have a Chinese community and the number is getting more and more day by day.

Many countries now concentrate on building GNP rather than GDP. So what China has done is a strategy to build its GNP.

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July 29, 2020, 01:10:47 PM
 #15

..For those who think China will dominate the world in a few years.. wealth continue to flow out of their country. I  believe it will fall just like URSS did few decades ago. Dictatorships are never good for economies in long term

Everyone wants freedom. Bitcoin will certainly make the world freer.

I did not see anything new for myself on this infographic, because I was sure that rich people are looking for shelter in America and Canada. But it was unexpected for me to see the Caribbean among the countries chosen by millionaires. Although this should have been the least surprising, I would have chosen the Caribbean myself)

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July 29, 2020, 01:53:17 PM
 #16

. Although this should have been the least surprising, I would have chosen the Caribbean myself)

Yeah, i agree in Caribbean.

I would certainly think about it due to life quality .  I don't know about their health infrastructure,  but at least for now it isn't a problem for me... I just need to become a millionaire now to move lol

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July 29, 2020, 02:01:43 PM
 #17

Some millionaire move there wealth not because of the countries they are in will steal it but because they stole the money and are looking for countries to hide it away in, large millions if not billions leaves African countries to other countries from corrupt leaders/politicians and are hidden off.
I hope bitcoin does not become like an -option/alternative- for these likes.
Could be another reason. But LoyceV is right, probably its about taxes, avoiding it on a larger scale by hiding and evading government dues. Its much easier if they could convert their funds to bitcoin. But of course still this is not a safe haven for fiat. Nothing will change on their wealth but only becomes a digital asset. Im curious why some China millionaires leaving their funds away from their own turf? Maybe they dont like the way system works there and looking for greenish pastures to start and multiply their money again.



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July 29, 2020, 02:05:39 PM
 #18

This is because of gambling! Evidence: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5260532.msg54746946#msg54746946
In more serious comment: it's because of freedom, taxation, and infrastructure.

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July 29, 2020, 02:12:37 PM
 #19

Actually, this graph can not show us a detailed meaning behind it. I mean, maybe they just move their money in order to invest something abroad. There are many places that can passively generate money for rich people. Lots of projects are being concerned and charities are covered many parts of our world.

Although bitcoin is a safe place for anyone who wants to avoid tax and inflation, it is not really bad to pay tax to the government. Can we live in the world without being controlled by the government? Are we dependent enough to live without relying in anyone? Bitcoin and other cryptos may take many years to be accepted as a currency and used. And I believe that the government will things to avoid this to happen.

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July 29, 2020, 02:34:34 PM
Merited by The Sceptical Chymist (2)
 #20

Leaving emerging markets to immigrate into wealthy Western countries has been around for ages. Security, life expectancy, education, etc. are much better in Western countries. If I had the money I would also start moving west.
crypto currencies are a great tool for that, all you need is Internet access and you convert your money to different currencies such as bitcoins. The transaction fee is lower than in fiat currencies and you are independent of banks.
However if you have a nice portfolio of other financial assets with a global bank, you don't even need to see your assets just to move them around. A bank can easily do that for you. It might be even better to hold your stocks and bonds for now and just hedge any currency risk.
I would not put all my money into one currency.
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July 29, 2020, 03:05:14 PM
 #21

Bitcoin might help for the millionaires to hold their assets but I doubt they will simply hold their assets because people love to play with their money to make more money but if they are still in the same country then all the laws will be applied to them as well.So they are moving to a country where investments are encouraged, tax rate is fair and much more causes.

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July 29, 2020, 03:32:24 PM
Merited by The Sceptical Chymist (3), bitmover (1)
 #22

Actually, this graph can not show us a detailed meaning behind it. I mean, maybe they just move their money in order to invest something abroad.

No, it's people that move, not the money, if you read the articles these are people who are getting out of those countries and choosing another, not for investment but to protect their money and in some other cases to protect their lives.
Having money in some of those listed above means you must also change your political views or learn to shut up!

That's called taxes Wink

It's called stupid socialism when you have to tax to give away free money for those that scream louder.
No wonder France has managed to get a place there when the crowds shout to tax the kulaks what choice you have?
There are countries that match France in normal taxes for the average Joe, but France was one of the last that scrapped the wealth tax in the EU, guess who put it there in the first place? It starts with Socialist and ends with Party  Grin

Would I rather live in a penthouse apartment in Murmansk or the Bahamas? The latter sounds a bit more fun.
Even if tax rates were lower in the place you left and there was no question of your wealth being nicked most people would still prefer to be somewhere that didn't make you want to top yourself every time you walked out your front door.

I don't know really, what if we compare Sochi to the Bahamas?
Once you get rid of the cold you are left with hurricanes, a crime rate 3 times that of Russia and 20 times that of Finland, vs learning to kiss each day a picture of Putin!  Grin
Probably that's why Australia gets 6 times more than the entire Caribbean.


Anyhow, just as bitcoin won't be able to make watermelons grow in the Sahara it won't be able to change people's opinion and needs

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July 29, 2020, 06:01:24 PM
 #23

Well, it is not only about repressive countries trying to battle it out with the millionaires. To make it more clear, when you live in a dictatorship like China, government wants a bribe from you because you are rich, since they are dictators they want you to accept them and like them and because you like them you should be bribing them anyway and if you don't that means you do not like them enough and that means you are against the dictator which is something every dictator hates, and that could be a cause to leave.

However another thing is, when you live in a country like China where there is a dictator, that is also a bad country to live in, you could be rich yourself but everyone and everything around you is poor, so when you are rich, why not go to a country that is much better and live a much better life?

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The Sceptical Chymist
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July 29, 2020, 08:10:18 PM
Merited by Mauser (1)
 #24

With bitcoin adoption, rich people won't need to run away with their money, they can just convert it to bitcoin to protect themselves.
Um, yeah....I don't know exactly what you mean by the above statement, but I don't think that's a legitimate strategy for people who aren't looking to do time in prison. 

Millionaires are probably moving away from countries which try to steal their money.
That's called taxes Wink
And I can imagine this is a large reason for rich people to move to another country, while it's also a reason not to tax capital too much: countries don't want to scare off their rich people.
I'm not sure how much taxation has to do with this so-called millionaire migration.  It does make sense if the tax advantages are huge and you have an extremely high income, but I really doubt most people would move to a different country for strictly economic reasons.  Then again, I'm not massively wealthy and thus don't think like someone who is.

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July 30, 2020, 03:21:56 AM
 #25

That's called taxes Wink
It's called stupid socialism when you have to tax to give away free money for those that scream louder.

I'm afraid that's the half-empty way of looking at it. How about calling it social justice? Those who have much will have to give more and those who have little will have to give less. Moreover, those who have much will have to receive less and those who have little will have to receive more. But, yeah, those who scream the loudest will have to receive nothing. Grin

Anyway, millionaires are moving probably due to a combination of reasons: safety and security, better overall life experience, shirking tax responsibilities, and so on. And so I don't think converting their wealth from fiat into Bitcoin will make them stay.

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July 30, 2020, 05:30:12 AM
 #26

Interesting infographic. But are you sure it's because of freedom only? Because UK is a pretty free country as far as I know why are numbers in negative there? I think people move out of countries like China and India in exploring better opportunities and better flavour of living. I mean even if you make a list of normal people the metric would still more or less be same. So it's not the millionaires who are migrating in this direction.

The motives of the population of China and India, all over the world, have different motives. Migration from China to the whole world is known as the diaspora. Diaspora actually became a government program, because China is not a country, China is civilization. The majority who work abroad and live in other countries are employees of Chinese state-owned enterprises who have also been trained and militarized and military educated to survive in other countries. At present, almost all countries in China always have a Chinese community and the number is getting more and more day by day.

Many countries now concentrate on building GNP rather than GDP. So what China has done is a strategy to build its GNP.
This is true thanks for pointing out. China has multiple corporations abroad and not only they post chinese employees there you would see a complete chinese culture prevelant in that office like the office norms and canteen stuff would all be chinese, i have experienced this in a factory owned by chinese company. Even though there were Indian Employees and Ex-pat Chinese employees but both of them didn't intermingled with each other. I even saw the same in case of Japanese at Honda factory in India. This could be a possible reason of migration from China for sure.
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July 30, 2020, 06:44:38 AM
 #27

Some millionaire move there wealth not because of the countries they are in will steal it but because they stole the money and are looking for countries to hide it away in, large millions if not billions leaves African countries to other countries from corrupt leaders/politicians and are hidden off.
I hope bitcoin does not become like an -option/alternative- for these likes.
I think those who you are referring to are real people and part of those millionaires who moves from country to country, but I sincerely believe that mostly those are honest people who did a great job and not trying to hide anything from anyone.
Bitcoin will always remain as an alternative option for people who still as a place to hide money in, but thats inevitable, its just how decentralized money works and thats part of the game.
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July 30, 2020, 08:13:41 AM
 #28

I'm not sure how much taxation has to do with this so-called millionaire migration.  It does make sense if the tax advantages are huge and you have an extremely high income, but I really doubt most people would move to a different country for strictly economic reasons.  Then again, I'm not massively wealthy and thus don't think like someone who is.

I agree, if you are very rich I would assume you choose a country you enjoy living in, not because it has so many tax benefits. Being rich should allow you to pay taxes, especially if you already have the wealth. And since you paid taxes when you got that money you don't have to pay taxes again on it.

If you would really want to avoid taxation the best would be to buy a yacht and live in international waters. If you spend more than 2/3 of a year in no country you wouldn't have to pay any taxes at all. Check out "The World" it's a luxury cruise ship travelling year around the world and rich old people buy their cabins. It's like an apartment building on the ocean to avoid taxes. Must be boring as hell. I prefer paying taxes and stay on land.
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July 30, 2020, 10:01:34 AM
 #29

...However another thing is, when you live in a country like China where there is a dictator, that is also a bad country to live in, you could be rich yourself but everyone and everything around you is poor, so when you are rich, why not go to a country that is much better and live a much better life?

The first priority for those who have already earned their capital is to protect it. Therefore, the priority for such people is to emigrate to countries with developed democracies. If we look at the graph, we will see that all these countries are marked by a high standard of living.

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July 30, 2020, 02:01:29 PM
 #30

People who have millions of dollars or euros logically want to see the world and are actually looking for an ideal place to live. I don't think China or Russia are ideal places to live, especially in terms of human rights and security - but they are ideal places to get rich very quickly - of course if you have a good relationship with the authorities.

As others have already commented, Bitcoin cannot change anything in this case, the rich unlike the poor have the privilege to choose not only better tax havens, but also countries where life is generally healthier considering the quality of air, water, food or crime rates. After all, one should not be deceived who will survive in the event of a global catastrophe - the one who has the money to pay for the ticket (movie 2012).

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July 30, 2020, 02:32:03 PM
 #31

Actually, this graph can not show us a detailed meaning behind it. I mean, maybe they just move their money in order to invest something abroad.

No, it's people that move, not the money, if you read the articles these are people who are getting out of those countries and choosing another, not for investment but to protect their money and in some other cases to protect their lives.
Having money in some of those listed above means you must also change your political views or learn to shut up!

That's called taxes Wink

It's called stupid socialism when you have to tax to give away free money for those that scream louder.
No wonder France has managed to get a place there when the crowds shout to tax the kulaks what choice you have?
There are countries that match France in normal taxes for the average Joe, but France was one of the last that scrapped the wealth tax in the EU, guess who put it there in the first place? It starts with Socialist and ends with Party  Grin

Those are the exact points that I though when I posted the images.
I live in a country were rich people have a very good quality of life (brazil). We have a good weather, there is a good health care for who is rich, beautiful place, and so on... But the problems comes in security, "changing political views or learn to shut up", abusive taxes to give away mooney to screamers who don't work and so on.

France is a good example of that. Amazing country in many aspects, but socialist policies and just kicking away millionaires


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Anyhow, just as bitcoin won't be able to make watermelons grow in the Sahara it won't be able to change people's opinion and needs

But it may change the way government can confiscate your money. You can, for now, legally buy bitcoins and store them in a safe place, or sent it abroad. This way people will be less affected by governments abusive policies.

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July 30, 2020, 03:03:01 PM
 #32

I'm afraid that's the half-empty way of looking at it. How about calling it social justice?

Justice? Probably not the one that's in front of every courthouse.
What justice is there when you take something from me just because you don't have something of your own?
You could call bullying also social justice, the bullies were taking lunch money from the kids that money. The poor were exempt from this.

Those who have much will have to give more and those who have little will have to give less. Moreover, those who have much will have to receive less and those who have little will have to receive more. But, yeah, those who scream the loudest will have to receive nothing. Grin

Do you know how this worked in the past?
Total disaster, from the URSS to Zimbabwe, when the poor took from the rich it ended with everyone getting poor! In Zimbabwe, they took the lands from the rich farmers, what happened? The poor died of hunger even though they had their own land! Forced redistribution of wealth is creating more problems that is solving.
Besides, BTC is exactly opposing this, so you can't really be a fan of wealth redistribution and of BTC at the same time.  Wink

But it may change the way government can confiscate your money. You can, for now, legally buy bitcoins and store them in a safe place, or sent it abroad. This way people will be less affected by governments abusive policies.

Depends a bit on what kind of government we're talking about.
Is Finland's government asking you to pay back some money, then you can pretty much sleep peacefully at night that it will be a legal process, you're going to hire a lawyer and so on
Is the government that's after you, known to poison people in foreign country and stage suicides? Then bitcoin will not really help you at all, you will cough those private keys at a rate of 10 keys per beating!



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July 30, 2020, 04:05:33 PM
 #33

But it may change the way government can confiscate your money. You can, for now, legally buy bitcoins and store them in a safe place, or sent it abroad. This way people will be less affected by governments abusive policies.

Depends a bit on what kind of government we're talking about.
Is Finland's government asking you to pay back some money, then you can pretty much sleep peacefully at night that it will be a legal process, you're going to hire a lawyer and so on
Is the government that's after you, known to poison people in foreign country and stage suicides? Then bitcoin will not really help you at all, you will cough those private keys at a rate of 10 keys per beating!




I guess the idea is not to run away with the money while they beat or process you, but to move the money way before any of those processes take place...

Similar to  buying gold and storing it somewhere safe. Nobody doesn't even need to know you have it.

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July 30, 2020, 04:11:31 PM
 #34

But it may change the way government can confiscate your money. You can, for now, legally buy bitcoins and store them in a safe place, or sent it abroad. This way people will be less affected by governments abusive policies.

Depends a bit on what kind of government we're talking about.
Is Finland's government asking you to pay back some money, then you can pretty much sleep peacefully at night that it will be a legal process, you're going to hire a lawyer and so on
Is the government that's after you, known to poison people in foreign country and stage suicides? Then bitcoin will not really help you at all, you will cough those private keys at a rate of 10 keys per beating!




I guess the idea is not to run away with the money while they beat or process you, but to move the money way before any of those processes take place...

Similar to  buying gold and storing it somewhere safe. Nobody doesn't even need to know you have it.


Edit:
Besides, BTC is exactly opposing this, so you can't really be a fan of wealth redistribution and of BTC at the same time.  Wink
100% agree with this. I don't get people who want the governments to control the economy buying btc at the same time.

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July 30, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
 #35

The first priority for those who have already earned their capital is to protect it. Therefore, the priority for such people is to emigrate to countries with developed democracies. If we look at the graph, we will see that all these countries are marked by a high standard of living.

The existence of antagonism between the interests of workers and capital is increasingly indisputable, when the disappointment and anger of the lower middle class over the existing political conditions is so acute, which raises the fact that liberal democracy at the center of global capitalism is actually giving birth to a political wave of right-wing and new fascist populism. So that there arises a discourse of a socialist political agenda to offer an alternative order of democratic society based on class consciousness that frees people from the shackles of domination and oppression in various forms in the realm of politics, economics, social and culture. The free market mechanism poses a threat to democracy, while the expansion of democracy cannot limit market freedom and stop the wheel of capital accumulation.

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July 30, 2020, 07:30:20 PM
 #36

I guess it could help keep them there to an extent, but most of these people are fleeing from depressive government rule all together and I'm not sure any change in type of monetary unit used will do much to change peoples minds about sticking around instead of fleeing to a more free "rule".

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July 31, 2020, 01:15:57 AM
 #37

This is for sure, the rich fear their money in dictatorial countries, and therefore they resort to fleeing or migrating to the most free countries. If it is the fear of the dictatorial government alone that causes the rich to migrate to more free countries then transferring money to Bitcoin will be a very good way to protect their money from the government and will not have to migrate .
But I think the fear of confiscating their money is not the only reason for immigration but rather they want to live in a more democratic and open country where they can operate their money easily and do a lot of work that cannot be done in oppressive countries.

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July 31, 2020, 01:28:17 AM
 #38

If it is the fear of the dictatorial government alone that causes the rich to migrate to more free countries then transferring money to Bitcoin will be a very good way to protect their money from the government and will not have to migrate.

What's to stop authoritarian regimes from shaking down investors for their coins? Even America did it in the 1930s with gold. You think the Russian government would think twice about something like that?

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July 31, 2020, 02:37:28 AM
 #39

This is for sure, the rich fear their money in dictatorial countries, and therefore they resort to fleeing or migrating to the most free countries. If it is the fear of the dictatorial government alone that causes the rich to migrate to more free countries then transferring money to Bitcoin will be a very good way to protect their money from the government and will not have to migrate .
But I think the fear of confiscating their money is not the only reason for immigration but rather they want to live in a more democratic and open country where they can operate their money easily and do a lot of work that cannot be done in oppressive countries.
Yes. Living in a dictatorial government for those who are wealthy men would mean losing their financial freedom because their assets are closely monitored by the government and for that, they cannot evade from taxation and even inflation. With bitcoin, you can easily convert your wealth into it and   you can live comfortably without worrying of losing your assets anytime.

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July 31, 2020, 02:46:05 AM
Merited by stompix (1)
 #40

I'm afraid that's the half-empty way of looking at it. How about calling it social justice?

Justice? Probably not the one that's in front of every courthouse.
What justice is there when you take something from me just because you don't have something of your own?
You could call bullying also social justice, the bullies were taking lunch money from the kids that money. The poor were exempt from this.

No single courthouse implements social justice. And I don't believe either that genuine justice springs forth from two self-assured lawyers superficially arguing against each other and a judge finally acting like a god bringing down a verdict.

If you don't want to give more than your minimum responsibility, then it's all up to you. You shouldn't be forced to give an extra against your will. Even tax avoidance, after all, is completely legal.

However, it is my personal conviction that those who have much, those who can afford to have a gold toilet, should learn to share even at least from their excesses.  

Quote
Those who have much will have to give more and those who have little will have to give less. Moreover, those who have much will have to receive less and those who have little will have to receive more. But, yeah, those who scream the loudest will have to receive nothing. Grin

Do you know how this worked in the past?
Total disaster, from the URSS to Zimbabwe, when the poor took from the rich it ended with everyone getting poor! In Zimbabwe, they took the lands from the rich farmers, what happened? The poor died of hunger even though they had their own land! Forced redistribution of wealth is creating more problems that is solving.
Besides, BTC is exactly opposing this, so you can't really be a fan of wealth redistribution and of BTC at the same time.  Wink

I am not a fan of governments. Neither am I a fan of violence. I don't support anyone, much less the government, forcing anybody to cough up even a single cent more than their minimum responsibility to support whatever program they have in mind.

While I don't believe that Bitcoin is a way to redistribute wealth, I also don't think that Satoshi created Bitcoin to exactly oppose it. Bitcoin brought forth freedom. The rich, elites, powerful, and the like are all free. Bitcoin empowers people. The ones who benefit most out of it are not those from the top but those who are at the bottom.

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July 31, 2020, 07:48:32 AM
 #41

Your message is not very clear about how btc can make the world a freer place. Here is a more realistic scenario - people leave countries where the crypto is prohibited/does not have a legal status to where it is in a better position and nothing changes in the end. Rich people as they moved to a places that better for them and they will be. Not the rich will continue to sit where they sit because there is no other way out.
Where does BTC make the world a freer place? How? There is still migration from one country to another-is it freedom? Or what?
No one in their right mind would store super-large amounts in btc because it is not predictable. Remember what a war of suicides was after his fall.
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July 31, 2020, 01:29:36 PM
 #42

There are lots of reasons why a certain individual decides to migrate into other countries most specially at the case of millionaires, surely they are seeking for better opportunities that can be possible to be seen on other places. Millionaires do have really big mind to seek for business concepts making them go far away to put it into reality.

The existence of Bitcoin to be used up as a passage way to make millionaires feer out of government's control on handling their money could be possible but it cannot assure to lessen the possibility of having migration because not all countries do allow usage and existence of cryptocurrencies in their countries so if ever they would try to decide using crypto like Bitcoin in a country like that, they would still be make use of doing migration to be able to use Bitcoin. We cannot control the migration of millionaires since they have their own reasons why they migrate to other places and that is which commonly concern about seeking better to best opportunities. Bitcoin on the other hand could be a possible way if they were just minding to be freer on using their money but still the idea is not that clear how could it be possible and usage of such cannot be an assurance that migration will not take place anymore. 

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July 31, 2020, 09:16:06 PM
 #43

Global migration is a normal scenario happening in the world for many people are always up into exploring something new and that leads them on getting into other places just to try luck and seek better opportunities that could come along the way of their journey. For sure, that is also one of the reasons why millionaires are getting into global migration for they are looking for better opportunities that can make them gain more profit and somehow expand their properties and businesses as they come along the way of migration.

I think the usage of Bitcoin cannot do a direct impact to change up this scenario because global migration is a normal thing ever since the early ages which brings the people more diversified and people have their own reasons why they do migrate into other places. When it comes to millionaires using Bitcoin so that they can be free to use up their money for fast transaction and to lessen migration, I think there is no significant relation on that because there are still countries who do not allow crypto usage so that could still lead to migration and it is inappropriate to store up a very large amount of money in crypto or digital currencies which is for me is impractical.
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August 02, 2020, 04:59:18 AM
 #44

Quote
Millionaires are probably moving away from countries which try to steal their money. With bitcoin adoption, rich people won't need to run away with their money, they can just convert it to bitcoin to protect themselves.

You are wrong about that.If you are a millionaire,any authoritarian government can just lock you down and ask for huge "ransom".You can't just move your money outside the country and stay in that country at the same time.
It doesn't matter if your wealth is stored in Bitcoin or any other asset.
Rich people are running away from such countries,because they might go to jail,if they stay.
Pretty interesting infographic though.I'm not sure if this data is correct.There's must be a way we could verify the information.

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August 02, 2020, 05:21:39 AM
 #45

The world has got smaller, with cheap air travel and internet connectivity and the governments are yet to realize it. They can no longer tax the super-rich at insane levels. Because they will just migrate to another country. Remember what happened in France, after François Hollande came up with the 75% super-tax? It was a gigantic failure.

As the situation stands now, the governments can tax the middle-class and the lower-class, until blood comes out from their rear side. But the same strategy is not practical with the super-rich. Nowadays, passports are on sale for as little as $100,000 to $250,000 (I am talking about Dominica, Vanuatu, Antigua and Barbuda, St Kitts, Portugal, Malta.etc). Rather than paying a few millions in tax, these super-rich individuals may just purchase a passport for a fraction of that amount.
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August 02, 2020, 07:24:58 PM
 #46

I don’t think that millionaires migrating from one country to the other has anything to do with the security of their money. No one’s trying to steal anything and plus they have all the facilities and security at their disposal. They probably move from repressive countries to freer ones to expand their businesses in various horizons and to live a life free of chaos and too much crowd. That’s not a great scenario for the country that is being left behind as it takes the hit on its economy.

Moreover, china will never be able to dominate the world or the international market with such attitude. Many large companies and other organizations that had their base and headquarters in china are already relocating to different countries.
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August 02, 2020, 08:22:44 PM
 #47

I guess the perspective towards global migration being done not just by millionaires but even the ordinary people have no direct relationship to the existence of Bitcoin to make them change their way on not migrating because people do have different desires in life and reasons why they migrate into different places. Mostly reasons are because they were seeking for boundless opportunities that can be found in other places.

Well, there might be reason related to Bitcoin why other people will do migration it is duly because some countries prohibit the usage and existence of cryptocurrencies making people who do really want to use it will get into other countries where it is allowed to be able to use it freely. But that would be an example on how Bitcoin cannot affect a people's decision on just staying up in a single place and never get away. It is because Bitcoin have nothing to do on why people decide to migrate it is duly to the reason that people just have their own reasons for migration and that's it.
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August 03, 2020, 05:11:11 AM
 #48

I don’t think that millionaires migrating from one country to the other has anything to do with the security of their money. No one’s trying to steal anything and plus they have all the facilities and security at their disposal. They probably move from repressive countries to freer ones to expand their businesses in various horizons and to live a life free of chaos and too much crowd. That’s not a great scenario for the country that is being left behind as it takes the hit on its economy.

Moreover, china will never be able to dominate the world or the international market with such attitude. Many large companies and other organizations that had their base and headquarters in china are already relocating to different countries.

No one is trying to steal anything? Are you sure about this?

A few years back, France had imposed a 75% tax on the super-rich. I would call such steps as daylight robbery. In most of the countries around the world, the rich people pay a higher proportion of their income as taxes, when compared to the others. But this is not right in my opinion. You can't punish someone for their success. Tax rates needs to be uniform for everyone.
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August 03, 2020, 05:28:28 AM
 #49

Maybe this is one of the causes of the price of a Bitcoin pump above $ 11,000. Some millionaires move their money into Bitcoin,
so rich people don't need to do global migration. Although this is just my guess, because there is no evidence that rich people
buy bitcoin in large quantities. But Bitcoin can indeed protect millionaire's money and provide financial freedom. Without fear
the government stole their money.

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August 03, 2020, 08:49:03 AM
 #50

if that is true, then they have anticipated, that the possibility of people will switch to bitcoin, and also the crypto market is not big enough for everyone because it is not up to 1% of all the total valuable assets in the world.
I'm not sure bitcoin will solve this problem globally.

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August 03, 2020, 01:43:50 PM
 #51

Bitcoin is a good idea, but a lot of them might worry about the volatility of Bitcoin, and you know for sure that nobody is ready to move all their money from the bank into Bitcoin. To be sincere, as much as we all want that freedom, we are forgetting that we can’t do the work of a bank. You can’t manage all your money at once in your possession. Imagine that Jeff Bezos the world’s richest man decides to pull all his money keep it in a safe in his house, do you think it will be safe? No it wouldn’t.

There is a kind of protection that banks gives, so you can only store a small amount of your money in Bitcoin. So the best thing these people can do is still to migrate to places that we favor them.
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August 03, 2020, 02:52:31 PM
 #52

You are wrong about that.If you are a millionaire,any authoritarian government can just lock you down and ask for huge "ransom".You can't just move your money outside the country and stay in that country at the same time.
It doesn't matter if your wealth is stored in Bitcoin or any other asset.
If the wealth is known and if you are fighting against the government and if you are living in an authoritarian government you cannot avoid and they will find a way to lock them and we have seen many situation in China where the billionaires are moving to other countries because the government is planning to put them behind bars and if a government wants you behind bars then the only option is to run away from that situation and you can see many billionaires migrating to Europe and other western countries leaving their wealth behind. In these circumstances bitcoin cannot be the ultimate solution but it is possible to convert a percentage of your wealth to bitcoin and move without the authorities noticing it.
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August 03, 2020, 03:07:24 PM
 #53

Some of those countries with strict laws extended that to Bitcoin with some regulating it and some banning its use outrightly. While most nations in the freer zones are less stringent and has a cryptocurrency friendly environment, encouraging its use.
It's possible for some people to go through the hoops in areas where Bitcoin is restricted but if they are wealthy enough they could rather choose to move to a more friendly environment and live comfortably.
What you are saying is that the millionaires are changing countries due to the stricter laws and regulations against cryptocurrency which is absolutely absurd. No one would change their country just because they were not able to invest in one digital asset.

If we talk about people that are involved in the blockchain or IT field, the statement can be considered valid till some point as there were news of blockchain companies moving to Switzerland due to no strict laws against cryptocurrencies. Crypto market is still far from being a multi-trillion market therefore it doesn’t yet concern millionaires or billionaires unless they own a company in IT sector.
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August 03, 2020, 03:10:24 PM
 #54

I saw this image today. It shows the migration of millionaires around the world.

We see clearly millionaires moving from more  repressive countries to freer ones.

Millionaires are probably moving away from countries which try to steal their money. With bitcoin adoption, rich people won't need to run away with their money, they can just convert it to bitcoin to protect themselves.


Source: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/global-migration-of-millionaires/


For those who think China will dominate the world in a few years.. wealth continue to flow out of their country. I  believe it will fall just like URSS did few decades ago. Dictatorships are never good for economies in long term

Everyone wants freedom. Bitcoin will certainly make the world freer.

I don't think rich people will transfer their assets to bitcoin. Bitcoin is too unstable due to its huge volatility and no one will hold large amounts in it. Accordingly, we are still faced with the Fiat currency and the laws of the state, which are usually very protesting against cryptocurrencies and bitcoin in particular.

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August 04, 2020, 12:58:35 PM
 #55

I wonder where's the data is coming from.
The people like me who travel all the time, or the people who moved to another country, most often, keep quiet about it.

Anyway, BTC helps a lot. Many countries, like China, Morocco or even Montenegro, have strict capital controls. I mean that you have your money in the bank, but if you want to wire money to another country, it must be green-lighted by the country's central bank. Sometimes, it says no, so you're screwed. Unless, you have BTC of course...

I used to be a citizen and a taxpayer. Those days are long gone.
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August 04, 2020, 01:18:03 PM
 #56

The migration of Millionaires might not even be happening because they fear their local country,  it might simply be that they are moving because they can afford to move to first world countries. Most of these Millionaires are invested in global firms and their money is not even invested in their country of origin.   Roll Eyes

Yes, if they did not trust their 3rd world governments, they might have moved to another country due to political instability and Bitcoin cannot solve that problem. Most third world countries make use of international Banking groups, so it is not due to insecure Banking institutions...

Economic instability might be a driving factor, because the local currency might devalue too quickly... but as I said, most of these people are invested in global markets and not local Fiat savings. (shares/equities/property etc.)

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August 04, 2020, 04:03:42 PM
 #57

If you are a millionaire and legitimately doing business, the only reason you might opt to migrate is due to easy and healthy standard of living that is being offered oversea. Most millionaire that move around do so also to explore new opportunity not because they have big money. Unless they are trying to prevent being charged for money laundering because there is limitation to money you can carry into oversea country. Bitcoin might help them to break the barrier though but the question is will they be able to trust bitcoin ?
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August 07, 2020, 04:58:48 AM
 #58

I wonder where's the data is coming from.
The people like me who travel all the time, or the people who moved to another country, most often, keep quiet about it.

The data is from here:
https://e.issuu.com/embed.html?u=newworldwealth&d=gwmr_2019

And no, you can't really keep quiet when you change citizenship, those are not expats living abroad, those are people that moved entirely and in most cases for good, besides, the data shows HNWI that were already in their database, people who have not kept a low profile even when they were not thinking of moving out. A lot of companies deal with this kind of data, especially luxury brands and realtors, once a multi-million dollar property changes hand the whole industry knows.


Maybe this is one of the causes of the price of a Bitcoin pump above $ 11,000. Some millionaires move their money into Bitcoin, so rich people don't need to do global migration.

The data is from 2017 and 2018, so ...no!  Cheesy

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August 07, 2020, 05:49:39 AM
 #59

There are lots of reasons why a certain individual decides to migrate into other countries most specially at the case of millionaires, surely they are seeking for better opportunities that can be possible to be seen on other places. Millionaires do have really big mind to seek for business concepts making them go far away to put it into reality.

If you're a millionaire in your country, chances are you're not going to be treated one if you move out. Unless you really have contacts outside, but I doubt that. And those opportunities will not present itself in other territories, you have to seek it out. I think one reason why millionaires are really migrating is to get out from oppression or social injustices.

~ snip ~

But if you live in a country wherein Bitcoin is acceptable but there are social injustices, will you still going to stay or migrate somewhere else with your BTC and start a new life with your family?

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August 07, 2020, 03:11:53 PM
 #60

Well, think about it this way, you are so rich that you build your own residence, it is a 40 story tall huge building, top two floors are cut down and became one floor with huuuuge ceiling and you are living the best life anyone can dream of, you have butlers you have cleaners you have dry cleaning at your finger tips they come to you and go everyday and basically you do nothing but just enjoy life.

Would that be valuable if the moment you step outside of your house everyone is poor and everything is bad? Being super rich in a third world country means you are just living a good life among very poor people, you have tons of money but not much to spend it on because people around you and in your city can't provide you with anything to purchase. So instead many people become middle income in developed countries instead of super rich in underdeveloped ones.

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August 08, 2020, 07:12:20 AM
 #61

Moving from one country to the other has become very easy nowadays. So the super-rich easily moves from countries with high levels of taxation to those countries where the tax slabs are lower. After a certain threshold, the rich people would be looking to maintain their wealth, rather than to increase it. For such people, off shore tax heavens may look attractive.
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August 08, 2020, 01:31:11 PM
 #62

I wonder where's the data is coming from.
The people like me who travel all the time, or the people who moved to another country, most often, keep quiet about it.

The data is from here:
https://e.issuu.com/embed.html?u=newworldwealth&d=gwmr_2019

And no, you can't really keep quiet when you change citizenship, those are not expats living abroad, those are people that moved entirely and in most cases for good, besides, the data shows HNWI that were already in their database, people who have not kept a low profile even when they were not thinking of moving out. A lot of companies deal with this kind of data, especially luxury brands and realtors, once a multi-million dollar property changes hand the whole industry knows.

Interesting data, thanks. But much incomplete. They talk of London and NYC are prime cities to relocate, I'm used to see people from those 2 cities leaving for good...
I don't see many people changing citizenship. In Monaco or Switzerland, there are thousands of foreigners living there. They will never go back to their past home, but they don't need local citizenship. The people I see looking for another citizenship are those from a shitty African country. They want a better passport to travel.

I used to be a citizen and a taxpayer. Those days are long gone.
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August 08, 2020, 02:48:43 PM
 #63

i think we will see ATH and biggest winners will be ones who hold most of the btc.
this is offcourse if we see the ATH .

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August 09, 2020, 01:07:25 PM
 #64

Interesting data, thanks. But much incomplete. They talk of London and NYC are prime cities to relocate, I'm used to see people from those 2 cities leaving for good...
I don't see many people changing citizenship. In Monaco or Switzerland, there are thousands of foreigners living there. They will never go back to their past home, but they don't need local citizenship. The people I see looking for another citizenship are those from a shitty African country. They want a better passport to travel.

Passports are expensive. So most of them opt for residence permits, which may come cheaply. For example, if you want EU citizenship then you can purchase passports from Cyprus (€2 million+), Bulgaria (€1 million) or Malta (€1.1 million). But a much cheaper option would be to get a residence permit. For example, Latvia will give you a residence permit, if you are ready to invest just €100,000. With this permit, you can travel freely in the Schengen area. Similar permits are available from dozens of nations, including Spain (€500,000), Switzerland (€1 million), Italy (€500,000).etc.

BTW, if you want the cheapest option, you can opt for the Thailand Elite Residence Visa. It will cost you THB 500,000 ($15,800). A 20-year visa is also available for around THB 2 million ($64,000).
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August 16, 2020, 06:48:08 PM
 #65

Lol, if you’re living in a country that wants to take all your years of hard work from you and leave you empty handed, you will be left with no other option than to leave that country and look for a better country that’s going to benefit you.

Countries that are being repressive really don’t know what they are doing, it’s very wrong to be doing such thing and chasing all the rich guys in the country to move to another place. If these millionaires move to another country, they are moving their business with them and that means that there will be increase in unemployment, and the country will be losing.
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August 17, 2020, 02:44:25 AM
 #66

Lol, if you’re living in a country that wants to take all your years of hard work from you and leave you empty handed, you will be left with no other option than to leave that country and look for a better country that’s going to benefit you.

That's nature with human behaviors, they won't allow things to happened so before it might be implemented they will move
away and find comforts from other places to continue living a comfortable life.

Quote
Countries that are being repressive really don’t know what they are doing, it’s very wrong to be doing such thing and chasing all the rich guys in the country to move to another place.

We are now more civilized and by doing this you those leaders are not thinking or caring for what will be the possible effects
of this kind of acts.

Quote
If these millionaires move to another country, they are moving their business with them and that means that there will be increase in unemployment, and the country will be losing.

Though sometimes political leaders also needs to stand against those billionaires who are controlling the economy of the
country, but not to the point to go this far.









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August 17, 2020, 03:26:31 AM
 #67

I don't know whether the data regarding millionaire migration in the opening post can be trusted or not, if that data is true
it is surprising that the Chinese state with a strong economy can occur many millionaires leaving the country. Possible Chinese
government imposes a hefty tax on millionaires in China. So the rich in China feel the government is stealing their money, then
they decide to migrate to countries that have lower taxes. I think Bitcoin is too risky to store large amounts of money, because
the price of Bitcoin is volatile and by moving it into Bitcoin is not the best solution.

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August 17, 2020, 07:46:16 AM
 #68

I don't know whether the data regarding millionaire migration in the opening post can be trusted or not, if that data is true
it is surprising that the Chinese state with a strong economy can occur many millionaires leaving the country. Possible Chinese
government imposes a hefty tax on millionaires in China. So the rich in China feel the government is stealing their money, then
they decide to migrate to countries that have lower taxes. I think Bitcoin is too risky to store large amounts of money, because
the price of Bitcoin is volatile and by moving it into Bitcoin is not the best solution.

Not all of the Chinese nouveau riche have earned their wealth in legal methods. A number of them are gang leaders and smugglers. These people doesn't feel safe in China, as the authorities can arrest them anytime. And countries such as Dominica and Antigua where such people purchase citizenship are actually concerned that the new citizens may include at least some, who have questionable backgrounds.
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August 17, 2020, 08:19:38 AM
 #69

I don't know whether the data regarding millionaire migration in the opening post can be trusted or not, if that data is true
it is surprising that the Chinese state with a strong economy can occur many millionaires leaving the country. Possible Chinese
government imposes a hefty tax on millionaires in China. So the rich in China feel the government is stealing their money, then
they decide to migrate to countries that have lower taxes. I think Bitcoin is too risky to store large amounts of money, because
the price of Bitcoin is volatile and by moving it into Bitcoin is not the best solution.

Also the Yuan is still controlled by government and not trading freely which makes chinese millionaires who have all their wealth lagging behind in comparison to other FIAT currencies. The chinese government doesn't want their currency to appreciate so they will keep it low. Which makes it very interesting to invest outside of China. All around the world rich chinese investors are buying land, apartments and houses in so many different countries. For example in an apartment complex here in Germany half of the apartments where sold to Chinese investors, without them ever seeing the apartment in person. They don't even live here or plan on moving here. The apartments also won't be rented out, they are just empty. It's a storage of value for them in a different currency. Since you won't get any interest from the banks you it's better to just buy real estate because it will likely keep their value or even go up.
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August 20, 2020, 11:17:31 AM
 #70

Very interesting infographic, strange to see such a gigantic exodus of millionaires from Turkey in particular—must be due to the incredibly high levels of government corruption there.

Still, even with China loosing 15,000 millionaires per year (I assume the infographic is measuring outflow by year), that's an incredibly tiny fraction of its millionaire-base. I doubt it is adversely affecting the country that much, and since it doesn't show how many new millionaires it gained, it's hard to see if it is net negative.

I don't know why people are heading to America. As far as I'm concerned, the country is on its last legs and is practically a third world country with first world problems. I mean, no universal healthcare?! People dying because they can't afford their damn insulin and anti-cancer medications? That doesn't sound like the greatest country in the world to me.
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August 20, 2020, 12:52:13 PM
 #71

I don't know why people are heading to America. As far as I'm concerned, the country is on its last legs and is practically a third world country with first world problems. I mean, no universal healthcare?! People dying because they can't afford their damn insulin and anti-cancer medications? That doesn't sound like the greatest country in the world to me.
"last legs'?
Half of the world money is in the US.
SP500 (the top 500 companies in US) currently are worth about 50% of world's capitalization (it shows 34% in this graphic, but it may be using different calculation, i know it is about 50%).


https://visual.ly/community/Infographics/economy/top-10-countries-world-stock-market-capitalization

A place where we have silicon valley, where basically all of the world new technologies in the past 20 years where born. Google, Amazon, Apple, and so on... TOp universities, like stanford etc..

They do not have as nearly the problem as any third world country. Millionaires all over the world are migrating to America because it is a free country.

Universal health care, for example, most of third world country have. You have universal health care in Brazil and Cuba. But millionaries are fleeing away from brazil to get treatment in US when they have health problems.

Universal health care, uuniversal incoming for everyone without any job, etc etc, and all those well fare state benefits aren't necessarily good for the economy.
 There is a lot of controversy about that, and often the countries which implement those benefits get broke in a few decades (ofc there are exceptions, and some countries can afford to pay that, but the majority fail)

For example, when you give all those benefits for people who do not work, you are giving incentives for them to keep not work and just parasitizing who does. This is exactly brazil case, where 25% of the population receive money from the government and do not work.

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August 21, 2020, 02:02:18 PM
 #72

Interesting data, thanks. But much incomplete. They talk of London and NYC are prime cities to relocate, I'm used to see people from those 2 cities leaving for good...
I don't see many people changing citizenship. In Monaco or Switzerland, there are thousands of foreigners living there. They will never go back to their past home, but they don't need local citizenship. The people I see looking for another citizenship are those from a shitty African country. They want a better passport to travel.

Passports are expensive. So most of them opt for residence permits, which may come cheaply. For example, if you want EU citizenship then you can purchase passports from Cyprus (€2 million+), Bulgaria (€1 million) or Malta (€1.1 million). But a much cheaper option would be to get a residence permit. For example, Latvia will give you a residence permit, if you are ready to invest just €100,000. With this permit, you can travel freely in the Schengen area. Similar permits are available from dozens of nations, including Spain (€500,000), Switzerland (€1 million), Italy (€500,000).etc.

BTW, if you want the cheapest option, you can opt for the Thailand Elite Residence Visa. It will cost you THB 500,000 ($15,800). A 20-year visa is also available for around THB 2 million ($64,000).

Again, that's a huge waste of money.
You don't need a residence permit. I've helped people buying houses in the Schengen area, all they had was a tourist visa (3 months), and everything was fine. Those people travel all the time, they'll get another visa when they'll come back.

I used to be a citizen and a taxpayer. Those days are long gone.
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August 21, 2020, 02:50:03 PM
 #73

Interesting data, thanks. But much incomplete. They talk of London and NYC are prime cities to relocate, I'm used to see people from those 2 cities leaving for good...
I don't see many people changing citizenship. In Monaco or Switzerland, there are thousands of foreigners living there. They will never go back to their past home, but they don't need local citizenship. The people I see looking for another citizenship are those from a shitty African country. They want a better passport to travel.

Passports are expensive. So most of them opt for residence permits, which may come cheaply. For example, if you want EU citizenship then you can purchase passports from Cyprus (€2 million+), Bulgaria (€1 million) or Malta (€1.1 million). But a much cheaper option would be to get a residence permit. For example, Latvia will give you a residence permit, if you are ready to invest just €100,000. With this permit, you can travel freely in the Schengen area. Similar permits are available from dozens of nations, including Spain (€500,000), Switzerland (€1 million), Italy (€500,000).etc.

BTW, if you want the cheapest option, you can opt for the Thailand Elite Residence Visa. It will cost you THB 500,000 ($15,800). A 20-year visa is also available for around THB 2 million ($64,000).

Again, that's a huge waste of money.
You don't need a residence permit. I've helped people buying houses in the Schengen area, all they had was a tourist visa (3 months), and everything was fine. Those people travel all the time, they'll get another visa when they'll come back.

I suppose when it comes to millionaires, there are no questions of value for them. At least in my country, almost all millionaires have dual citizenship, while hiding basic information, since dual citizenship is prohibited in my country. Nevertheless, millionaires will never skimp for their safety, especially when buying citizenship in the Schengen area.
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August 21, 2020, 03:10:56 PM
 #74

Interesting data, thanks. But much incomplete. They talk of London and NYC are prime cities to relocate, I'm used to see people from those 2 cities leaving for good...
I don't see many people changing citizenship. In Monaco or Switzerland, there are thousands of foreigners living there. They will never go back to their past home, but they don't need local citizenship. The people I see looking for another citizenship are those from a shitty African country. They want a better passport to travel.

Passports are expensive. So most of them opt for residence permits, which may come cheaply. For example, if you want EU citizenship then you can purchase passports from Cyprus (€2 million+), Bulgaria (€1 million) or Malta (€1.1 million). But a much cheaper option would be to get a residence permit. For example, Latvia will give you a residence permit, if you are ready to invest just €100,000. With this permit, you can travel freely in the Schengen area. Similar permits are available from dozens of nations, including Spain (€500,000), Switzerland (€1 million), Italy (€500,000).etc.

BTW, if you want the cheapest option, you can opt for the Thailand Elite Residence Visa. It will cost you THB 500,000 ($15,800). A 20-year visa is also available for around THB 2 million ($64,000).

Again, that's a huge waste of money.
You don't need a residence permit. I've helped people buying houses in the Schengen area, all they had was a tourist visa (3 months), and everything was fine. Those people travel all the time, they'll get another visa when they'll come back.


A tourist from oher country (alien) can own a property 100% in that Schengen area?

That would be a good place to go if only that place would be a peaceful palce to raise a kid. I always wanted to move somewhere and start fresh without the judging eyes of my neighbors and in laws passing all the time my house.  Thailand is a good warn place than Schengen that is why they consider residential visa.



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August 21, 2020, 07:08:44 PM
 #75

In many dictatorial countries, millionaires and billionaires are the ones who really rule the country and have a great influence on the heads of state, because it is often the money of these people that brought others to power.
However, I agree with you that all people strive for where they have more freedom. A person always wants to break the shackles or get out of the cage in which they are trying to keep him by force.
Therefore, any dictatorship is doomed. The opposition always becomes the current government in the future, as it strives for freedom.
Bitcoin is an excellent example of how a tool that increases the level of human freedom is gaining more and more popularity amid various restrictions and attempts to restrict it among classical systems.

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August 21, 2020, 07:21:42 PM
 #76

Therefore, any dictatorship is doomed.

Not all. Gadaffi and Saddam managed their country good but then the outside entities like the US are trying to invade these countries. For that to be possible they need to destroy the strong man of the country and misrepresent them like they are the villain to their people.

Look what they are today after Saddam and Gadaffi. It's becoming worse, their country was once strong in terms of economics and military, now they are just peony.  The liberals are doing it again to China.

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August 21, 2020, 11:44:08 PM
 #77

In many dictatorial countries, millionaires and billionaires are the ones who really rule the country and have a great influence on the heads of state, because it is often the money of these people that brought others to power.
However, I agree with you that all people strive for where they have more freedom. A person always wants to break the shackles or get out of the cage in which they are trying to keep him by force.
Therefore, any dictatorship is doomed. The opposition always becomes the current government in the future, as it strives for freedom.
Bitcoin is an excellent example of how a tool that increases the level of human freedom is gaining more and more popularity amid various restrictions and attempts to restrict it among classical systems.


and that is why it is no surprise why a lot of these elite people are secretly stashing bitcoin. and they can very well do that without alerting anyone, thats the benefit of crypto. however converting it back to fiat may require identities, but right now, i dont think that is their concern.
but i agree from the above point that many dictatorial countries are influenced by these oligarchs. and i guess we are talking a lot of countries on that effect!

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