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Author Topic: Regulation Coin Mixers  (Read 182 times)
thewarriorofthelight (OP)
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October 27, 2020, 12:47:41 PM
 #1

Are there non custodial and decentralized coin mixers?
If not so, are they possible?
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Oshosondy
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October 27, 2020, 12:54:02 PM
 #2

Just know that all mixers are noncustodial services that they are providing. You need to think about it yourself, why the need for custodial services to provide mixing services, it does not make any sense. You mix bitcoin only for one reason, to increase your privacy in a way your coins can not be traced to you, which mean you want to be anonymous in a way your bitcoin can not be traced to you, which means you want to handle bitcoin in a noncustodial way. All mixers are noncustodial, some even will give you your private key to the coin mixed which should be the appropriate means of mixing.

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October 27, 2020, 01:03:58 PM
Merited by mocacinno (1), Heisenberg_Hunter (1), Charles-Tim (1)
 #3

The most trusted and well known one that is not decentralized/non-custodial (at least not AFAIK) is ChipMixer (Onion link). If you're looking for ways to anonymize your coins that are decentralized, you could look into Wasabi's CoinJoin or Samurai Wallet's Whirlpool. I reckon there are a few other ways but I can't remember them atm.

Another option is moving from BTC to Monero - while CoinJoins and Whirlpooling does partially break the chain of your coins, it does not permanently/completely do so. A little mistake, such as linking non-mixed/joined/whirlpooled coins to mixed/joined/whirlpooled ones, could just expose you again on the network.

Also, make sure you read about the methods in-depth before you begin trying out one. There are important stuff (such as Anonymity Set) you have to know about in order to understand which is the best path for you.

All mixers are noncustodial, some even will give you your private key to the coin mixed which should be the appropriate means of mixing.
Are you sure? I am quite sure that someone giving you the private key to some coins doesn't mean they don't own the privkeys themselves. In fact, I'm pretty sure they actually do own them before handing them out. Smiley Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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October 27, 2020, 01:26:36 PM
 #4

Another option is moving from BTC to Monero - while CoinJoins and Whirlpooling does partially break the chain of your coins, it does not permanently/completely do so. A little mistake, such as linking non-mixed/joined/whirlpooled coins to mixed/joined/whirlpooled ones, could just expose you again on the network.
I think this is a nice suggestion, but I know about Dash and Zcash too, they are cryptocurrencies that can not be tracked, any wallet that provide decentralized exchange is good enough for this. And thereby moving the coin back to bitcoin, the transaction will truly become mixed and not linked to the owner. But, I will just prefer to make use of bitcoin in its entirety for the mixing purpose, using your example above will be good which is the use of Chipmixer.

Are you sure? I am quite sure that someone giving you the private key to some coins doesn't mean they don't own the privkeys themselves. In fact, I'm pretty sure they actually do own them before handing them out. Smiley Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
According to the FAQ I read on chipmixer, they do mix coin and hand over the private key of the coin to the person that want use their mixing service. I think the private key will be generated in a way it will not be manipulated and only you will be able to check and see it. Correct me if I am wrong. Although, there are different ways mixers can mix bitcoin.

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October 27, 2020, 02:43:21 PM
 #5

According to the FAQ I read on chipmixer, they do mix coin and hand over the private key of the coin to the person that want use their mixing service. I think the private key will be generated in a way it will not be manipulated and only you will be able to check and see it. Correct me if I am wrong. Although, there are different ways mixers can mix bitcoin.
Back when Casascius coins were produced, there was a big issue surrounding physical coins: how and why should we trust a coin mint printing private keys, when the mint generated the keys itself?

If a website gives you a private key to an address that has already been generated and filled with some coins, you can't trust them for "hiding the keys after generating them" or something like that. They owned them before you do, so they may as well still own them if that makes sense. I really do need an input from someone else though: does this count as non-custodial, as soon as you also have the privkeys?

I think this is a nice suggestion, but I know about Dash and Zcash too, they are cryptocurrencies that can not be tracked, any wallet that provide decentralized exchange is good enough for this.
The XMR vs DASH vs XZC debate regarding privacy is a big headache and pretty subjective tbh. Dash and Zcash, AFAIK, have optional privacy. That's a double-edged sword. Theymos has posted a Reddit reply to someone's thread which is a pretty interesting read - so is this post about Dash's privacy features. They're quite old though, and things might've significantly changed since then.
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October 27, 2020, 02:56:07 PM
 #6

According to the FAQ I read on chipmixer, they do mix coin and hand over the private key of the coin to the person that want use their mixing service. I think the private key will be generated in a way it will not be manipulated and only you will be able to check and see it. Correct me if I am wrong. Although, there are different ways mixers can mix bitcoin.
Back when Casascius coins were produced, there was a big issue surrounding physical coins: how and why should we trust a coin mint printing private keys, when the mint generated the keys itself?

If a website gives you a private key to an address that has already been generated and filled with some coins, you can't trust them for "hiding the keys after generating them" or something like that. They owned them before you do, so they may as well still own them if that makes sense. I really do need an input from someone else though: does this count as non-custodial, as soon as you also have the privkeys?

I think this is a nice suggestion, but I know about Dash and Zcash too, they are cryptocurrencies that can not be tracked, any wallet that provide decentralized exchange is good enough for this.
The XMR vs DASH vs XZC debate regarding privacy is a big headache and pretty subjective tbh. Dash and Zcash, AFAIK, have optional privacy. That's a double-edged sword. Theymos has posted a Reddit reply to someone's thread which is a pretty interesting read - so is this post about Dash's privacy features. They're quite old though, and things might've significantly changed since then.

Additionally, a lot of Zcash users are not even using that optional privacy that is offered.

For mixers, I'd say that deciding factor is how they generate those private keys and if (as well as HOW) they get rid of those private keys. I'd say it's all automated, and that would make it non-custodial exchange. If on other hand, they save those private keys somewhere or if someone can access them that would make it custodial exchange.
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October 27, 2020, 03:02:17 PM
 #7

According to the FAQ I read on chipmixer, they do mix coin and hand over the private key of the coin to the person that want use their mixing service. I think the private key will be generated in a way it will not be manipulated and only you will be able to check and see it. Correct me if I am wrong. Although, there are different ways mixers can mix bitcoin.
I was just thinking how mixer could get private key, I'm not doubting if chipmixer did not generate PK or not, I know private key is used to import bitcoin balance from one wallet to another, although mixers are not wallet rather, can it be possible to import bitcoin balance from chipmixer to another mixer using private key? I don't know if my question is appropriate. 
thesmallgod
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October 27, 2020, 04:52:49 PM
 #8

all coin mixer is non custodian if they are not I think their objective is defeated because they are created to increase the security of crypto transaction and make the users to be more anonymous. Getting regulated means their operation is not going to provide users with more anonimity. Most of them exisiting today are created with faceless team
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October 28, 2020, 08:07:58 AM
 #9

Are there non custodial and decentralized coin mixers?
If not so, are they possible?

You are looking for wallets or services that support CoinJoin. Examples of that are the Wasabi wallet and JoinMarket.

Just know that all mixers are noncustodial services...

For mixers, I'd say that deciding factor is how they generate those private keys and if (as well as HOW) they get rid of those private keys. I'd say it's all automated, and that would make it non-custodial exchange. If on other hand, they save those private keys somewhere or if someone can access them that would make it custodial exchange.

I was just thinking how mixer could get private key, I'm not doubting if chipmixer did not generate PK or not, I know private key is used to import bitcoin balance from one wallet to another, although mixers are not wallet rather, can it be possible to import bitcoin balance from chipmixer to another mixer using private key? I don't know if my question is appropriate.  

all coin mixer is non custodian if they are not I think their objective is defeated because they are created to increase the security of crypto transaction and make the users to be more anonymous. Getting regulated means their operation is not going to provide users with more anonimity. Most of them exisiting today are created with faceless team

That's all nonsense. Mixers like ChipMixer are custodial and centralized. You send them coins and then they are supposed to send you coins. There have been plenty of scam mixers that just keep your coins. You must trust them with your coins. That makes them custodial.

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October 28, 2020, 12:45:03 PM
 #10

Using Coinjoin still requires the trust of a 3rd party, the server's owner since it has data from participants, and do not steal your bitcoins. So I'm not sure if we can truly call this a decentralized method?. However, there are solutions to not rely on a middleman(?)

Correct me if I'm wrong

Not even considering if the protocol isn't implemented correctly (and it happened before with blockchain Sharedcoin https://github.com/kristovatlas/coinjoin-sudoku)

Samourai is (or was) an "hybrid" coinjoin

Edit: Also to add since the title says "Regulation", projects such as Wasabi could well be "regulated" in the future.

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