How can collapse of USD affect bitcoin?

[dead_bit]

Indian tribes used to trade beads or feathers amongst each other and use those as money because the tribe chief would reliably accept them as a show of homage to his authority (taxes). But should that chief die and be replaced by some dude who don't give two craps about beads or feathers then guess what happens?

Bitcoin is the beads. The USD is the chief.

Not exactly, the beads and feathers were replaced because they weren't useful in as many markets as the USD.

Well let's consider the alternatives... Centralized digital fiat currency won't exist at first. After an economic collapse; nobody will trust the same people who just ripped off the entire world. Banks will be shunned and the population will be fending for itself.

Gold and precious metals, bartering; commodities will come back into play in a big way. Now the biggest problem historically has been piracy of international trade. You can steal wealth from a trader because you know they have a bunch of it on-board the ship. You can raid the ship and physically steal wealth easily.

Bitcoin isn't susceptible in the same way. You can't carry it away.

The advantages of Bitcoin over fiat are amazing, but remember that fiat was also advantageous over gold. Therefore, the advantages of Bitcoin over gold are even more extreme. The issue has always been trust; financial institutions are the problem. Bitcoin will shine when fiat is gone.

beads and feathers were replaced so that everyone could have a fair shake in the market... not everyone was a hunter so not everyone could get the goods.

What are these amazing advantages you speak of?

[1713967285]

1713967285

[pungopete468]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

The world won't stop when the USD collapses. The medium of transfer will only change form. The market is artificially manipulated right now. If the USD fails the market will assess new values for everything.

At the end of the day; the world is run by people, not dollars. Should the dollar collapse the people will still remain. Bitcoin will be valued by utility. In a world where you need to carry 5lbs of coinage to buy groceries Bitcoin will have plenty of advantages...

I think if you look at a broader picture and reference the world before the dollar you will have a better understanding of how the world will react should the dollar collapse.

[dead_bit]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

The world won't stop when the USD collapses. The medium of transfer will only change form. The market is artificially manipulated right now. If the USD fails the market will assess new values for everything.

At the end of the day; the world is run by people, not dollars. Should the dollar collapse the people will still remain. Bitcoin will be valued by utility. In a world where you need to carry 5lbs of coinage to buy groceries Bitcoin will have plenty of advantages...

I think if you look at a broader picture and reference the world before the dollar you will have a better understanding of how the world will react should the dollar collapse.

I must respectfully disagree. Look at how much the world already reacted to a decline in the USD. We have the very recent 08-09 price movement of the USD to assess what will happen in the world. Besides, it's not simply the "USD" that you must worry about, but the fact that most of the worlds consumption occurs in America. You're missing the point entirely. A collapse of the USD, while not world stopping, will not help bitcoin. It would be like asking the heroin addict to stop cold turkey, it doesn't happen. You would have to gradually introduce something new to the system. Would bitcoin be that new substance? Only if stops being an investment tool.

[MatTheCat]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

Agreed.

At one point in history, nobody would accept a national currency that wasn't backed by gold as they required more than paper promises of a government that may be overthrown, go bankrupt etc etc. Post WW2, it turned out that the US had all the gold. So then we had the Bretton Woods system, whereby the dollar was treated as gold, but without the inconvenience and the expense of having to ship around precious metal between central bank vaults. Then in the 70's the US suspended and then abolished the link between the US dollar and gold. The decade that followed seen a brutal economic recession and a massive bull market in gold, but by the 80's the world found itself still accepting the dollar which by then was linked to the US's military might and their control of global oil markets. As most here know, this is the paradigm in which we are still living although a paradigm that is becoming increasingly shaky thanks in no small part to the financial system being allowed to hi-jack the system and multiply credit (USD and other currencies backed by USD) to orders of several magnitude. Bitcoin is merely a means of speculating and digitally transferring units of USD around the world.

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• A unit of account backed by the authority of an authority with tax raising powers.

Bitcoin is neither of those. Bitcoin is merely a vessel or potential vessel of any given unit of exchange which enough people are prepared to reliably swap for the Bitcoin. It is not about the Bitcoin, it is about what the Bitcoin can be swapped over for.

[NeedForBitcoin]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

[dead_bit]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

Agreed.

At one point in history, nobody would accept a national currency that wasn't backed by gold as they required more than paper promises of a government that may be overthrown, go bankrupt etc etc. Post WW2, it turned out that the US had all the gold. So then we had the Bretton Woods system, whereby the dollar was treated as gold, but without the inconvenience and the expense of having to ship around precious metal between central bank vaults. Then in the 70's the US suspended and then abolished the link between the US dollar and gold. The decade that followed seen a brutal economic recession and a massive bull market in gold, but by the 80's the world found itself still accepting the dollar which by then was linked to the US's military might and their control of global oil markets. As most here know, this is the paradigm in which we are still living although a paradigm that is becoming increasingly shaky. Bitcoin is merely a means of speculating and digitally transferring units of USD around the world.

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• A unit of account backed by the authority of an authority with tax raising powers.

Bitcoin is neither of those. Bitcoin is merely a vessel or potential vessel of any given unit of exchange which enough people are prepared to reliably swap for the Bitcoin. It is not about the Bitcoin, it is about what the Bitcoin can be swapped over for.

Eloquently spoken! And totally correct!

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

In a true Dollar collapse most won't even have internet so BTC will be totally useless.

[pungopete468]

beads and feathers were replaced so that everyone could have a fair shake in the market... not everyone was a hunter so not everyone could get the goods.

What are these amazing advantages you speak of?

 Over FIAT
=============

 - No capital control
 - No third party required for international or domestic transfers
 - Trustless system
 - Not inherently fractional
 - Favors a commodity rather than an IOU
 - Not nearly as susceptible to theft compared with carrying cash

 Over Gold/Commodity Backed
=============

 - Gold is cumbersome
 - Gold notes are fractional
 - Gold notes require trust
 - Gold is highly susceptible to theft
 - The true value of gold will be remarkably close to what it was pre-fiat (very cumbersome to carry)
 - Coinage is property of the issuing government and can be seized easily as history has shown
 - Subject to capital controls, tariffs, tolls, or any other inspection that reveals how much you are carrying
 - Regularly debased as opposed to a tax increase (it's shady to debase currency rather than increase tax but serves the same purpose)
 - The list goes on and on

[dead_bit]

beads and feathers were replaced so that everyone could have a fair shake in the market... not everyone was a hunter so not everyone could get the goods.

What are these amazing advantages you speak of?

 Over FIAT
=============

 - No capital control
 - No third party required for international or domestic transfers
 - Trustless system
 - Not inherently fractional
 - Favors a commodity rather than an IOU
 - Not nearly as susceptible to theft compared with carrying cash

 Over Gold/Commodity Backed
=============

 - Gold is cumbersome
 - Gold notes are fractional
 - Gold notes require trust
 - Gold is highly susceptible to theft
 - The true value of gold will be remarkably close to what it was pre-fiat (very cumbersome to carry)
 - Coinage is property of the issuing government and can be seized easily as history has shown
 - Subject to capital controls, tariffs, tolls, or any other inspection that reveals how much you are carrying
 - Regularly debased as opposed to a tax increase (it's shady to debase currency rather than increase tax but serves the same purpose)
 - The list goes on and on

1. So BTC value isn't currently influenced by speculation?
2. see point 1
3. Trustless? Define trustless because that statement means nothing
4. I agree there but the dollar wasn't always fractional either and it was that very function which killed it
5. what commodity? it isn't tied to anything, unless we have gold bitcoins now
6. ok, because we don't see these exchanges getting ripped off for however many btc

as far as gold goes well there are obvious benefits but I'll dispel it all in one simple statement.

In the event of a major economic collapse you all have the assumption you will be able to afford the internet and power. I'm doubting that anyone could in the event of a collapse. Once those two factors are gone, BTC dies a quick death.

[TeeBone]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

Agreed.

At one point in history, nobody would accept a national currency that wasn't backed by gold as they required more than paper promises of a government that may be overthrown, go bankrupt etc etc. Post WW2, it turned out that the US had all the gold. So then we had the Bretton Woods system, whereby the dollar was treated as gold, but without the inconvenience and the expense of having to ship around precious metal between central bank vaults. Then in the 70's the US suspended and then abolished the link between the US dollar and gold. The decade that followed seen a brutal economic recession and a massive bull market in gold, but by the 80's the world found itself still accepting the dollar which by then was linked to the US's military might and their control of global oil markets. As most here know, this is the paradigm in which we are still living although a paradigm that is becoming increasingly shaky thanks in no small part to the financial system being allowed to hi-jack the system and multiply credit (USD and other currencies backed by USD) to orders of several magnitude. Bitcoin is merely a means of speculating and digitally transferring units of USD around the world.

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• A unit of account backed by the authority of an authority with tax raising powers.

Bitcoin is neither of those. Bitcoin is merely a vessel or potential vessel of any given unit of exchange which enough people are prepared to reliably swap for the Bitcoin. It is not about the Bitcoin, it is about what the Bitcoin can be swapped over for.

All of your posts, whether economic or world related, are the shizznit. Really though, i for one am glad you're around here. You give some food for thought to the kool-aid heads.

[Ibian]

Bitcoin requires the existance of the State for it to thrive.

It specifically does not require that. Part of the design.

[pungopete468]

1. So BTC value isn't currently influenced by speculation?
2. see point 1
3. Trustless? Define trustless because that statement means nothing
4. I agree there but the dollar wasn't always fractional either and it was that very function which killed it
5. what commodity? it isn't tied to anything, unless we have gold bitcoins now
6. ok, because we don't see these exchanges getting ripped off for however many btc

as far as gold goes well there are obvious benefits but I'll dispel it all in one simple statement.

In the event of a major economic collapse you all have the assumption you will be able to afford the internet and power. I'm doubting that anyone could in the event of a collapse. Once those two factors are gone, BTC dies a quick death.

1. I'm asserting that everything on the market today; goods, services, gold, and Bitcoin included are all suffering from the effect of our credit based system. The market is not an accurate representation today of what it should be in reality.
3. Trustless means that you don't need to trust a third party to facilitate your transaction. You don't need to trust the authenticity of the issuer because Bitcoin is a protocol; not a central third party.
4. The dollar must be fractional to facilitate quick or digital transfers; unlike Bitcoin where transfers do not create a fractional system.
5. Bitcoins are tied to every commodity in the same way that every other commodity is tied to one-another. The value of Bitcoin is a factor of trading for goods, services, or investments/commodities.
6. The exchanges are required to trade for fiat. The exchanges aren't a representation of the security of Bitcoin. The exchange servers have always been the vulnerable point.

After fiat collapses the market will correct itself. Anybody who can afford internet now will likely be able to afford the internet after a collapse. The infrastructure already exists, the price will adapt.

[dead_bit]

1. So BTC value isn't currently influenced by speculation?
2. see point 1
3. Trustless? Define trustless because that statement means nothing
4. I agree there but the dollar wasn't always fractional either and it was that very function which killed it
5. what commodity? it isn't tied to anything, unless we have gold bitcoins now
6. ok, because we don't see these exchanges getting ripped off for however many btc

as far as gold goes well there are obvious benefits but I'll dispel it all in one simple statement.

In the event of a major economic collapse you all have the assumption you will be able to afford the internet and power. I'm doubting that anyone could in the event of a collapse. Once those two factors are gone, BTC dies a quick death.

1. I'm asserting that everything on the market today; goods, services, gold, and Bitcoin included are all suffering from the effect of our credit based system. The market is not an accurate representation today of what it should be in reality.
3. Trustless means that you don't need to trust a third party to facilitate your transaction. You don't need to trust the authenticity of the issuer because Bitcoin is a protocol; not a central third party.
4. The dollar must be fractional to facilitate quick or digital transfers; unlike Bitcoin where transfers do not create a fractional system.
5. Bitcoins are tied to every commodity in the same way that every other commodity is tied to one-another. The value of Bitcoin is a factor of trading for goods, services, or investments/commodities.
6. The exchanges are required to trade for fiat. The exchanges aren't a representation of the security of Bitcoin. The exchange servers have always been the vulnerable point.

After fiat collapses the market will correct itself. Anybody who can afford internet now will likely be able to afford the internet after a collapse. The infrastructure already exists, the price will adapt.

1. I can agree with point 1 in the sense that the market is not an accurate reflection of value.

2. This does nothing to affect the value of bitcoin. BTC is just as prone to corruption, theft, and lying as any other investment tool.

3. The term fractional has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about. The dollar is fractional to cover the sheer cost of what it is asked to do. It was made into a fractional reserve currency because it could not expand the money supply in a way that was sufficient to expand the economy. It was finite and so only so much of it could be used.

4. Bitcoin isn't used to trade for anything so your statement is pointless. Please show me where you can buy something for bitcoin.

5. The exchange servers will always be necessary because no one will ever accept bitcoin.

How will all this infrastructure be maintained? How will people be paid for the services they provide to maintain this infrastructure? Some enterprising individual might come up with some great answers but I have yet to see those answers get pushed forward. I have some answers but I'm banking on fiat not collapsing for a simple reason. All the guns say it won't. There are more guns then you could possibly imagine and if the guns say don't accept bitcoin everyone will fall into line. This is the world we live in, it's much more horrible and disingenuous then 1984. Hence why I make my "psychological" reference. All money is simply a psychological tool.

[Ibian]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

Ill trade you a quarter bitcoin for that nice boat of yours.

See how easy that was? No dollar or banker needed.

[dead_bit]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

Ill trade you a quarter bitcoin for that nice boat of yours.

See how easy that was? No dollar or banker needed.

What if he doesn't want btc for his boat? That's the inherent problem here. BTC isn't accepted in the mainstream world so that guy would be an idiot to take your BTC. Unless he saw an opportunity to exchange the BTC for USD. Still haven't changed anything because in the end it's still about the dollar.

[Ibian]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

Ill trade you a quarter bitcoin for that nice boat of yours.

See how easy that was? No dollar or banker needed.

What if he doesn't want btc for his boat? That's the inherent problem here. BTC isn't accepted in the mainstream world so that guy would be an idiot to take your BTC. Unless he saw an opportunity to exchange the BTC for USD. Still haven't changed anything because in the end it's still about the dollar.

This is all assuming bitcoin becomes a mainstream currency. I know, you wouldn't bet a satoshi on that, but a lot of us are banking on it.

For that matter, what if he doesn't want dollar? He won't, cause it will have collapsed in the scenario in question.

Barter is inefficient. A new form of money will be created when the old order dies. Nothing to worry about, except for fiat bagholders.

[pungopete468]

1. I can agree with point 1 in the sense that the market is not an accurate reflection of value.

2. This does nothing to affect the value of bitcoin. BTC is just as prone to corruption, theft, and lying as any other investment tool.

3. The term fractional has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about. The dollar is fractional to cover the sheer cost of what it is asked to do. It was made into a fractional reserve currency because it could not expand the money supply in a way that was sufficient to expand the economy. It was finite and so only so much of it could be used.

4. Bitcoin isn't used to trade for anything so your statement is pointless. Please show me where you can buy something for bitcoin.

5. The exchange servers will always be necessary because no one will ever accept bitcoin.

How will all this infrastructure be maintained? How will people be paid for the services they provide to maintain this infrastructure? Some enterprising individual might come up with some great answers but I have yet to see those answers get pushed forward. I have some answers but I'm banking on fiat not collapsing for a simple reason. All the guns say it won't. There are more guns then you could possibly imagine and if the guns say don't accept bitcoin everyone will fall into line. This is the world we live in, it's much more horrible and disingenuous then 1984. Hence why I make my "psychological" reference. All money is simply a psychological tool.

 - The value of Bitcoin today is not the same as the value of Bitcoin post-collapse. The trust issue isn't big - yet. Comparing Bitcoin in a world where *reliable* money is all tangible; Bitcoin has a distinct advantage because a burglar can't just walk away with it while you're away. It's WAY easier to break into somebodies house and rob the cash under the mattress than to brute force an encryption key.

 - In a non-fractional banking system there will be no such thing as an online purchase. If you can't be there in person to tender the payment then you are operating in a fractional system. I'm referring to the movement of money and the availability at any given point. Money in transit isn't money in hand.

 - Bitcoin is used to trade every day; I don't know where you get that idea... People get paid in Bitcoin for goods and services every day; not all of them are converted to fiat.

 - The exchange servers won't always be necessary. I could send a Bitcoin payment right now and it will never pass through an exchange server. Plenty of people accept Bitcoin already. I disagree when you say, "no one will ever accept bitcoin."

The answers you haven't seen get pushed forward haven't needed to be pushed forward yet. The maintenance is a job, the customers pay in some medium for the service, the company uses part of the proceeds from providing the service to pay for the maintenance. The dollar isn't important here, it's only a vessel for converting labor into food (or whatever else). Bitcoin is a more efficient vessel than the dollar.

All the guns in the world can't stop fiat from collapsing. Actually I think they are pushing for a collapse in hopes that the masses will accept the "necessity" of a power shift into an outright Authoritarian "World Government".

[dead_bit]

- The value of Bitcoin today is not the same as the value of Bitcoin post-collapse. The trust issue isn't big - yet. Comparing Bitcoin in a world where *reliable* money is all tangible; Bitcoin has a distinct advantage because a burglar can't just walk away with it while you're away. It's WAY easier to break into somebodies house and rob the cash under the mattress than to brute force an encryption key.

 - In a non-fractional banking system there will be no such thing as an online purchase. If you can't be there in person to tender the payment then you are operating in a fractional system. I'm referring to the movement of money and the availability at any given point. Money in transit isn't money in hand.

 - Bitcoin is used to trade every day; I don't know where you get that idea... People get paid in Bitcoin for goods and services every day; not all of them are converted to fiat.

 - The exchange servers won't always be necessary. I could send a Bitcoin payment right now and it will never pass through an exchange server. Plenty of people accept Bitcoin already. I disagree when you say, "no one will ever accept bitcoin."

The answers you haven't seen get pushed forward haven't needed to be pushed forward yet. The maintenance is a job, the customers pay in some medium for the service, the company uses part of the proceeds from providing the service to pay for the maintenance. The dollar isn't important here, it's only a vessel for converting labor into food (or whatever else). Bitcoin is a more efficient vessel than the dollar.

All the guns in the world can't stop fiat from collapsing. Actually I think they are pushing for a collapse in hopes that the masses will accept the "necessity" of a power shift into an outright Authoritarian "World Government".

- I think in a post collapse world trust will be the issue that crushes bitcoin. No one will want something they can't physically control.

- Once again, you are misunderstanding what fractional systems are, so I will leave it be.

- 99% of all trades end up with USD as the end result. Just because you bought something doesn't mean it wasn't dumped into dollars. If things are priced in dollars, and you pay in bitcoins, it still ends up in dollars. You not seeing the exchange doesn't make it not real.

- That is a simple miscommunication. I mean in a more broad way, not just the "exchanges" (i.e. cryptsy, etc.) But to go further, what stores will allow me to use my bitcoin wallet address to pay for something? Where can I go down the street to pay with bitcoins? The simple answer is nowhere. Why? It would require a massive infrastructure change and we're already talking post collapse so where will the capital come from to make this possible?

All the guns in the world have already stopped the collapse. You're allowing wishful thinking to cloud good judgement. What about our world is sound? What about our world makes sense? The fact that we need money at all is a fallacy in itself! But to be truthful, the world trusts dollars because America can land a military anywhere on the planet within 18 hours and crush the opposition.

[Ibian]

- That is a simple miscommunication. I mean in a more broad way, not just the "exchanges" (i.e. cryptsy, etc.) But to go further, what stores will allow me to use my bitcoin wallet address to pay for something? Where can I go down the street to pay with bitcoins? The simple answer is nowhere. Why? It would require a massive infrastructure change and we're already talking post collapse so where will the capital come from to make this possible?

Not touching the rest, but this is at least mildly interesting. The answer is "Berlin" and "the infrastructure is already in place". All a store needs to accept payment in bitcoin is a QR code and a computer with a wallet to confirm payment. Automatic conversion to fiat optional. The infrastructure, such as it is, has been in place for years. And it doesn't break down like the elaborate and expensive systems we currently use do, and requires nobodys approval. It's also free.

You have a lot of reading to do. I would suggest seeing to that before you continue arguing about things you clearly have little clue about.

[dead_bit]

- That is a simple miscommunication. I mean in a more broad way, not just the "exchanges" (i.e. cryptsy, etc.) But to go further, what stores will allow me to use my bitcoin wallet address to pay for something? Where can I go down the street to pay with bitcoins? The simple answer is nowhere. Why? It would require a massive infrastructure change and we're already talking post collapse so where will the capital come from to make this possible?

Not touching the rest, but this is at least mildly interesting. The answer is "Berlin" and "the infrastructure is already in place". All a store needs to accept payment in bitcoin is a QR code and a computer with a wallet to confirm payment. Automatic conversion to fiat optional. The infrastructure, such as it is, has been in place for years. And it doesn't break down like the elaborate and expensive systems we currently use do, and requires nobodys approval. It's also free.

You have a lot of reading to do. I would suggest seeing to that before you continue arguing about things you clearly have little clue about.

The capital would come from Berlin?

I have a lot of reading to do? As you tapdance around the plain truth... that no store in my immediate vicinity will accept my bitcoin. You sir, need to get out more often. (I know of no store that has QR scanners anywhere for at least 75 miles and I live in a decently populated area and the one store that does sells nothing that I would want or need as evidenced by the fact that it does little business in a decently sized commercial district)

Automatic conversion isn't optional... so that's not of any concern since no government accepts bitcoin for anything that I'm aware of.

If Bitcoin were to be "used by government agencies for the express purpose of paying ANYTHING AT ALL" it would be immediately subverted to all the same taxes and regulations that the dollar is currently held to. Do you think the government would simply go away because the dollar collapsed?

[pungopete468]

- I think in a post collapse world trust will be the issue that crushes bitcoin. No one will want something they can't physically control.

- Once again, you are misunderstanding what fractional systems are, so I will leave it be.

- 99% of all trades end up with USD as the end result. Just because you bought something doesn't mean it wasn't dumped into dollars. If things are priced in dollars, and you pay in bitcoins, it still ends up in dollars. You not seeing the exchange doesn't make it not real.

- That is a simple miscommunication. I mean in a more broad way, not just the "exchanges" (i.e. cryptsy, etc.) But to go further, what stores will allow me to use my bitcoin wallet address to pay for something? Where can I go down the street to pay with bitcoins? The simple answer is nowhere. Why? It would require a massive infrastructure change and we're already talking post collapse so where will the capital come from to make this possible?

All the guns in the world have already stopped the collapse. You're allowing wishful thinking to cloud good judgement. What about our world is sound? What about our world makes sense? The fact that we need money at all is a fallacy in itself! But to be truthful, the world trusts dollars because America can land a military anywhere on the planet within 18 hours and crush the opposition.

It's a pleasure debating our opposing opinions.

 - Bitcoin isn't a system built on trust. It's just math... There is no possibility of a "Bitcoin run" or "Bitcoin went bankrupt".

 - I know what fractional reserve systems are. Rather than attacking the entire system I'm focusing on a single aspect. When I consider a gold/resource based commodity as "fractional reserve" I'm telling you that people don't want to carry a coin purse around. The resource is deposited into a treasury and a note is issued to guarantee availability. You can only redeem these notes at the local treasury where the resource was deposited... Why would I accept a note to a local treasury in a different state? The only way to eliminate the "fractional reserve" aspect is to do away with paper notes. Bitcoin doesn't suffer the same issue...

 - The change will come either slowly by gradual innovation (before the collapse) or quickly from necessity. If Bitcoin is used to facilitate international trade then the incentive will be there. People don't always get paid to change the system. Sometimes people are forced to adapt out of necessity.

The guns haven't stopped anything, they stalled it. I think money is necessary; just think about it. How else could a dentist and a car salesman make a deal when the salesman has good teeth and the dentist needs a car?

The world doesn't trust dollars, the world trusted gold. The USA fleeced the world without the consent of the world. It's not going to last...