Project Development board change/move?

[dkbit98]

Project Development board is being under attack for weeks from same scam fake Satoshi First smart contract at bitcoin and members like:
 Kira17119,
 xSTRIFERx,
 Jolendone12,
 SA.TO.SHI_BTC
... and others

My suggestion is to make some changes and enable public trust feedback and warning message in Project Development board, and make it same like in other forum sections where negative feedback can be seen with warning message if I gave him negative tag feedback.

This is what they are posting, and you can not see any negative trust feedback on his profile:



It should be like this:

[1714872007]

1714872007

[1714872007]

1714872007

[1714872007]

1714872007

[hilariousandco]

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea in that board as it's potentially dealing with money, but they get reported and nuked pretty fast so probably doesn't matter too much.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea in that board as it's potentially dealing with money, but they get reported and nuked pretty fast so probably doesn't matter too much.

Besides, I think if anyone wants to do business they eventually do some research about the user and looking at the trust page, trust rating is one of them. So I think it's fine the way it is. The project development board is a discussion board not related to any service.

[dkbit98]

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea in that board as it's potentially dealing with money, but they get reported and nuked pretty fast so probably doesn't matter too much.

It's not dealing with money, but it's dealing with malware that can steal money from you if you are newbie and you download that software.rar file.
I don't see that it showing trust on profiles is such a big deal to add there.

Besides, I think if anyone wants to do business they eventually do some research about the user and looking at the trust page, trust rating is one of them. So I think it's fine the way it is. The project development board is a discussion board not related to any service.

Some people are downloading that crap, and that is why they repeat to post it.

[Vod]

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea in that board as it's potentially dealing with money, but they get reported and nuked pretty fast so probably doesn't matter too much.

It does matter, because if their post doesn't break any rules, it will stay up and newbies will contact them.

The trust numbers should be shown.

[PrimeNumber7]

The description of Project Development is:

Organization of Bitcoin and related projects, bounty campaigns, advertising etc.

Most of the above categories can be described as "commerce" which is what all the Marketplace sub-boards are made up of.

This sub was created well before the marketplace sub boards were created (according to their respective board IDs), but I believe it would be most appropriate for Project Development to be moved into the Marketplace sub.

Also, the description of Project Developement (and its description in the Unofficial list of forum rules) implies that threads such as signature campaigns belong in this sub, as opposed to Services where they are currently mostly located. This may have been appropriate when the forum was very small, but I believe it is now more appropriate for these threads to be in Services. As a result of the above, I would also suggest revising the description of Project Development to something along the following:

Organization of Bitcoin and related projects (sites, software not yet developed/in development), No hiring here although "looking for partners" threads should be here

It also appears there are a number of threads in Project Development that although they are being improved, are currently "live"/"in production" and have been for a long time, and as such would be better suited for Service Announcement.

[Casdinyard]

The description of Project Development is:

Organization of Bitcoin and related projects, bounty campaigns, advertising etc.

Most of the above categories can be described as "commerce" which is what all the Marketplace sub-boards are made up of.

Isn't advertising not part of the 'commerce' in its actual definition?

Commerce
social dealings between people.

Therefore, anything to be seemed a project and advertising it would still be fit in the Project Development board. As you can see, I've been there for numerous times and one thing is for sure. Even those that bombards it with scam attempts would simply fail, as most of active users there (including me) keeps a warning post/comment whenever a thread is published that looks for investors. Changing or restricting more in Proj Dev board might be the worst change that might happen in this forum, as some newbies do really have a valid and good ideas on making a certain project happen.

[hilariousandco]

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea in that board as it's potentially dealing with money, but they get reported and nuked pretty fast so probably doesn't matter too much.

It's not dealing with money, but it's dealing with malware that can steal money from you if you are newbie and you download that software.rar file.
I don't see that it showing trust on profiles is such a big deal to add there.

Well if we're going by that logic malware can and is posted on all boards and someone could steal money from you there so should we show the feedback in all subs?

[Mitchell]

I don't see a problem with trust being shown everywhere. Doesn't hurt anyone, might help someone.

[hilariousandco]

I don't see a problem with trust being shown everywhere. Doesn't hurt anyone, might help someone.

I don't have a problem with it either, but theymos has said before he doesn't want it influencing opinion of people in other boards where trading isn't relevant. There are pros and cons to both ways though.

[hilariousetc]

I don't see a problem with trust being shown everywhere. Doesn't hurt anyone, might help someone.

I don't have a problem with it either, but theymos has said before he doesn't want it influencing opinion of people in other boards where trading isn't relevant. There are pros and cons to both ways though.

His statement is no longer relevant since trust also used for purpose besides trading such as obvious scam attempt, sharing malware and imposing someone else.

I don't think that's true. There are certainly cases to be made for both sides of the argument, and I would say that showing the trust score everywhere will no doubt stop at least a few potential scams, but on the flip side it will also cause some disruption as people will use someone's feedback score as a point of attack and an ad hominem to an argument. Of course, it doesn't matter too much as you can just click on their profile and see their score but it does effect how you perceive people. I remember in the past seeing certain user's posts, wondering if they're a troll or just an idiot and then you see their feedback with multiple red tags and suddenly their behaviour makes sense. I've also seen in the past people bring up a certain users trust score as if that makes their case invalid and that's where it becomes an issue. Also, on the flip-side of that, sometimes feedback does help you judge a person, but that's where the issues can arise. Theymos probably won't change it but it will be interesting to know it he still feels the same or has in fact changed his mind.

[OcTradism]

I don't see a problem with trust being shown everywhere. Doesn't hurt anyone, might help someone.

I support your opinion.

I think theymos enable and disable Trust ratings by boards (commerical or non commercial) boards because past drama on Trust (old trust system, not current trust system). With the old Trust system, DT1 members have too huge power and when one of them leaves a negative trust, trust rating of receiver will turn to be - 50, -100, etc. It hurts eyes and creates panic from receiver.

Now, the trust sytem has been improved. One trust rating is one rating: positive, negative, neutral. Users with -10 trust ratings from DT members now look not too bad like what they used to have in the past (-300 ratings. If I was receiver, I would have been panic too).

[OgNasty]

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea in that board as it's potentially dealing with money, but they get reported and nuked pretty fast so probably doesn't matter too much.

It does matter, because if their post doesn't break any rules, it will stay up and newbies will contact them.

The trust numbers should be shown.

First of all, the trust network is in shambles because of abusers like you Vod and can hardly be trusted to provide any sort of guidance on whether a project is good or bad. 

Secondly, newbies aren't some stupid idiots that throw their money into any fool project without doing any due dilligence and if they are, then a fool and their money will be quickly parted anyway.

Finally, the trust numbers are shown if you click the profile and not difficult at all to find.  Don't worry, you'll still be able to have a negative impact the lives of those trying to build Bitcoin projects.

[suchmoon]

I don't see a problem with trust being shown everywhere. Doesn't hurt anyone, might help someone.

I don't have a problem with it either, but theymos has said before he doesn't want it influencing opinion of people in other boards where trading isn't relevant. There are pros and cons to both ways though.

At the very least it should be shown to those who have custom trust lists. I know this wouldn't quite solve malware issues because new-ish users (and thus less likely to have custom trust lists) are most vulnerable to that but if the above argument about influencing opinions really holds water then how about at least giving the benefit of the doubt to users who actually know how the trust system works and built their trust lists so that they would see the trust ratings the way they want to see them.

<rant>
As to the opinions... I find it quite ridiculous that we're trying to protect the feelings of red-trusted users, who may or may not be "discriminated" in a discussion because of their red trust, at the expense of everyone else. More than that, we don't moderate scams so we're expecting everyone - including newbies - to DYOR while making information such as trust ratings harder to access.
</rant>

[dkbit98]

The description of Project Development is:

Organization of Bitcoin and related projects, bounty campaigns, advertising etc.

Most of the above categories can be described as "commerce" which is what all the Marketplace sub-boards are made up of.

This sub was created well before the marketplace sub boards were created (according to their respective board IDs), but I believe it would be most appropriate for Project Development to be moved into the Marketplace sub.

Also, the description of Project Developement (and its description in the Unofficial list of forum rules) implies that threads such as signature campaigns belong in this sub, as opposed to Services where they are currently mostly located. This may have been appropriate when the forum was very small, but I believe it is now more appropriate for these threads to be in Services. As a result of the above, I would also suggest revising the description of Project Development to something along the following:

Organization of Bitcoin and related projects (sites, software not yet developed/in development), No hiring here although "looking for partners" threads should be here

It also appears there are a number of threads in Project Development that although they are being improved, are currently "live"/"in production" and have been for a long time, and as such would be better suited for Service Announcement.

Very good observation and I don't have much to add here.

Best solution for everyone would be to move Project Development board to better place, or change it's description.

I think some topic rearrangements would be very healthy for some other boards also.

[Pmalek]

<rant>
As to the opinions... I find it quite ridiculous that we're trying to protect the feelings of red-trusted users, who may or may not be "discriminated" in a discussion because of their red trust, at the expense of everyone else. More than that, we don't moderate scams so we're expecting everyone - including newbies - to DYOR while making information such as trust ratings harder to access.
</rant>

I don't think it is about protecting their feelings. Consider this: Can a scammer/troll/negative trust user also be knowledgeable about Bitcoin, have great programming skills, and be a security conscious individual?

He can be both at the same time. Imagine there is a discussion about staying anonymous while transferring Bitcoin. And our scammer/troll/negative trust user offers excellent advice and a guide about protecting your identity. How do you think his advice will be perceived by the community when they see his -30 trust score? Many would probably not consider it or take it seriously.

I understand how theymos was thinking when he made the trust ratings invisible in certain boards, because someone's expertise in a Bitcoin-related discussion has nothing to do with how likely he is to cheat or steal money, etc.

I do agree with dkbit98's advice to make the trust ratings visible in Project Development because links to websites and software can be shared there. For that reason, I would like to see who is the person sharing it. I reported one thread like that yesterday, and it took several hours before it was deleted.     

[hilariousetc]

<rant>
As to the opinions... I find it quite ridiculous that we're trying to protect the feelings of red-trusted users, who may or may not be "discriminated" in a discussion because of their red trust, at the expense of everyone else. More than that, we don't moderate scams so we're expecting everyone - including newbies - to DYOR while making information such as trust ratings harder to access.
</rant>

It's not really about protecting their feelings and the argument still stands that even if you're a scammer or an unscrupulous user that doesn't really have any bearing if you wanted to talk about politics or something else. If you're a genuinely nasty user then I don't really care that much, but what I do have a problem with though is just the users who've been tagged for something that someone else doesn't like or is frowned upon here. Not all feedback 'crimes' are equal here. Selling an account will likely get you negative but it's not against the rules and is hardly a crime. I have negative feedback from Timelord and if he ever gets on DT then that is going to show up. That shouldn't be there in the first place and I certainly wouldn't want it showing up in certain subs.

[Nellayar]

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea in that board as it's potentially dealing with money, but they get reported and nuked pretty fast so probably doesn't matter too much.

It's not dealing with money, but it's dealing with malware that can steal money from you if you are newbie and you download that software.rar file.
I don't see that it showing trust on profiles is such a big deal to add there.

Besides, I think if anyone wants to do business they eventually do some research about the user and looking at the trust page, trust rating is one of them. So I think it's fine the way it is. The project development board is a discussion board not related to any service.

Some people are downloading that crap, and that is why they repeat to post it.

Exposing some malware sites to newbies can lead them in a hack. Even it does not talk about money, they might be also violated some rules in forum that is posting malware activities. When we download ir, we may also fall into bait that may harm our funds.

I did not usually go in project development. And I did not know what happening there. But if it talks about malicious site or malwares then moderator should stop them so that the newbies will not be entertained by them anymore.

[PrimeNumber7]

The description of Project Development is:

Organization of Bitcoin and related projects, bounty campaigns, advertising etc.

Most of the above categories can be described as "commerce" which is what all the Marketplace sub-boards are made up of.

Isn't advertising not part of the 'commerce' in its actual definition?

Commerce
social dealings between people.

Prior to reading your post, I have never heard of commerce being used in that context. A quick google search indicates that definition is dated. I was able to find a more appropriate oxford definition of "commerce":

the activity of buying and selling, especially on a large scale

I don't see a problem with trust being shown everywhere. Doesn't hurt anyone, might help someone.

Bitcointalk is a discussion forum that includes marketplace subforums. It is not a forum dedicated to economic transactions. I don't think someone with a strong trading history (or whatever other reason they have a high trust rating) should give them additional weight in non-trading discussions. Similarly, someone with a less than spotless trading history should not have their posts receive less weight in non-trading discussions on the sole basis of their trading history if their point is otherwise insightful.

[suchmoon]

I don't think it is about protecting their feelings.

It's not really about protecting their feelings

Really, that's what you both took from my rant?

No, seriously, I get it. But what's the worst that can happen with those ratings visible? It's just a possibility that someone may see the opinion of a red-trusted user as less  valuable. And perhaps it is. Or isn't. If said user is concerned about it I'd call it hurt feelings, nothing more. Quite regularly someone would dig up my untrusted feedback and call me a scammer so trust visibility has little to do with people being idiots about it.

Bottom line - why don't we leave it to users to decide for themselves. We expect everyone to fend for themselves in the ocean of scams proliferating here but we hide a tool they could use. Keep in mind that scammers don't follow the rules when it comes to posting their scams. If you enable trust ratings in Project Development they'll use some other board where the ratings are not visible.

[Little Mouse]

Keep in mind that scammers don't follow the rules when it comes to posting their scams. If you enable trust ratings in Project Development they'll use some other board where the ratings are not visible.

True, scammer will find a way or another but making feedback visible in the board would make users a little concern because not everyone has idea about the forum. For example, Velkro is promoting his vanity address generator in Beginners and Help board, anyone can easily fall into the trap. But if feedback was visible there, some may wouldn't.

[hilariousetc]

I don't think it is about protecting their feelings.

It's not really about protecting their feelings

Really, that's what you both took from my rant?

No, seriously, I get it. But what's the worst that can happen with those ratings visible? It's just a possibility that someone may see the opinion of a red-trusted user as less  valuable. And perhaps it is. Or isn't. If said user is concerned about it I'd call it hurt feelings, nothing more. Quite regularly someone would dig up my untrusted feedback and call me a scammer so trust visibility has little to do with people being idiots about it.

Bottom line - why don't we leave it to users to decide for themselves. We expect everyone to fend for themselves in the ocean of scams proliferating here but we hide a tool they could use. Keep in mind that scammers don't follow the rules when it comes to posting their scams. If you enable trust ratings in Project Development they'll use some other board where the ratings are not visible.

As I said before, I wouldn't have a problem with it being shown everywhere, but I'm just reiterating theymos logic/reasoning for not doing it. Maybe he'll change his mind or maybe he won't. Hopefully he will comment to update us but I wouldn't hold your breath. Like you said, people do dig up people's feedback as a point of attack and often when it's not relevant but when it's there in your face it tends to get brought up even more. Again, I'm not saying that's why we should keep it like it is. Showing the feedback will almost certainly lead to some people not being scammed because of it and personally I would prefer people to not get scammed than people bickering ver reputation issues but it is what it is.