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Author Topic: Why do mixing companies want stolen bitcoins?  (Read 458 times)
BlackHatCoiner
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October 15, 2020, 11:53:02 AM
 #1

I'm not going to talk about those who use mixing companies just for privacy, but for those that use it to launder their money. Mixing companies mix people's bitcoins by giving them other funds that are not address connected with the stolen ones. This way, the thief can use his bitcoins without worrying about anything. (Although, he has to trust the mixing company)

As a fee for this procedure, mixing companies charge their users an amount of coins. I think they pay analogously of how many coins they want to mix. Anyway, here's the question:

Why do mixing companies want stolen bitcoins? Don't they get tracked by the FBI? Even if 1 bitcoin is stolen, it can be tracked. What do they do it after they receive it? Do they sell it for monero?





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October 15, 2020, 11:59:11 AM
Merited by ETFbitcoin (1)
 #2

Most of them send bitcoins they receive back to their next clients sooner or later..
Mixing is basically breaking the link between 2 wallets, it does not mean that the funds you receive as an output from the mixer cannot be coupled to any illegal activity... And that shouldn't be a problem either: can you prove that any fiat money in your wallet was never stolen or used to buy illegal narcotics?

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October 15, 2020, 12:17:06 PM
 #3

it does not mean that the funds you receive as an output from the mixer cannot be coupled to any illegal activity...
According to chipmixer, it gives you some private keys that have no connection with the stolen funds. How exactly can the mixer's private keys be reported as illegal activity?

And that shouldn't be a problem either: can you prove that any fiat money in your wallet was never stolen or used to buy illegal narcotics?
You can't compare bitcoin with fiat, because they're not the same thing. About the dollars you have in your pocket, yes you can't know if they came through some drug dealing. And the reason is that there is no ledger. On bitcoin, though, you can see if a hacker moved bitcoins from the time he stole them.





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October 15, 2020, 12:18:21 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4), mocacinno (1)
 #4

The point of mixing is that the service doesn't ask about the source of money. If they did, it wouldn't be mixing anymore, just some pinky-promise "privacy" service where you trust that they won't give all the data to the authorities when requested. Btw, if mixers keep logs, they can still know the inputs and the outputs, and maybe they actually do cooperate with authorities, who knows? This is why criminals start to preferring Monero, where privacy is made on a protocol level.





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October 15, 2020, 12:28:41 PM
 #5

--snip--
According to chipmixer, it gives you some private keys that have no connection with the stolen funds. How exactly can the mixer's private keys be reported as illegal activity?
They give you private keys, which can be used to calculate public keys, which can be hashed.. These hashes (commonly known as addresses) can be funded with funds that can be linked with illegal activity. Just not with YOUR illegal activity... And that's the whole point of mixing...

--snip--
You can't compare bitcoin with fiat, because they're not the same thing. About the dollars you have in your pocket, yes you can't know if they came through some drug dealing. And the reason is that there is no ledger. On bitcoin, though, you can see if a hacker moved bitcoins from the time he stole them.
Sure you can... Banknotes have serial numbers...
It's perfectly possible for governement instances to see if a certain banknote was stolen from a bank... Or they can do trace tests for cocaine...
The point is: it's money... It shouldn't matter if it can be linked to illegal activity, as long as said illegal activity wasn't commited by the person whose currently in possession of the banknote in question. Nobody is going to convict you because you got a 5€ that was stolen by somebody else a long time ago as change when you bought a magazine.

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October 15, 2020, 12:32:26 PM
 #6

The point of mixing is that the service doesn't ask about the source of money. If they did, it wouldn't be mixing anymore, just some pinky-promise "privacy" service where you trust that they won't give all the data to the authorities when requested.

If I ran a mixer I absolutely would reject stolen coins that are directly traceable. You can be an enabler of privacy and not criminality. If it's a bit murky so be it, if it's straight from an outrageously publicised theft then I would refuse to aid their getaway. Needless heat and helping scum to profit is not my idea of fun.
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October 15, 2020, 02:01:33 PM
 #7

If I ran a mixer I absolutely would reject stolen coins that are directly traceable.
But to do that, then you must investigate and trace all deposits. You must keep logs of all the deposits, and you must use blockchain analysis tools on every deposit to see if it is stolen or has links with any illegal activity. Any coins which are flagged up by your algorithm are then locked or seized. At that point, your mixer is essentially no different to depositing and withdrawing coins from a centralized exchange. It is not private, it is not safe, and no one with any sense is going to use it.

It's the same principle as governments trying to ban encryption or force back doors in to encryption software to "stop the terrorists". Once you allow the privacy to be compromised for anyone, then it is useless for everyone.

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October 15, 2020, 02:20:41 PM
 #8

The point of mixing is that the service doesn't ask about the source of money. If they did, it wouldn't be mixing anymore, just some pinky-promise "privacy" service where you trust that they won't give all the data to the authorities when requested.

If I ran a mixer I absolutely would reject stolen coins that are directly traceable. You can be an enabler of privacy and not criminality. If it's a bit murky so be it, if it's straight from an outrageously publicised theft then I would refuse to aid their getaway. Needless heat and helping scum to profit is not my idea of fun.

I would also reject stolen coins because it is a crime, but many who accept stolen coins are predictable for extraordinary profits, and they hold stolen coins no matter if they are true or false.

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October 15, 2020, 02:42:10 PM
 #9

Why do you know the mixed companies want more Bitcoin stolen?
Surely criminals will use mixers to launder money. Of course, the mash company will get a certain expense, but I don't see them big enough to enrich the company.
Mixers are created not only to launder dirty money, but they also provide user privacy and prevent the traceability of others.
What if the government asks mixed companies to block addresses from stealing bitcoins?





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October 15, 2020, 02:51:13 PM
 #10

I don't think 'want' is a word you are looking for. Mixing services are employed to sever a connection of transactions at a particular point, making the user somewhat anonymous again since the trail is already convoluted or tainted with lots of in-betweens. They are receiving fees for the coins that they mix, and they do not have control on whatever coins they receive in the process, so it's not really uncommon for them to receive coins that are tainted with illegalities but still accept them since that is what their service is for.

I mean, if I am an anonymous entity hiding in the sidelines and someone wanted to trade his/her stuff with mine in exchange of a small sum, why shouldn't I do it?

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October 15, 2020, 02:54:51 PM
 #11

Why do mixing companies want stolen bitcoins?
It's not the service is all about. It's about mixing coins from the entire circulation or storage that they have and then giving the sender with a new set of bitcoins without any connection to the wallet where he had sent it. Mocacinno explained  properly what's the business model of mixers.
It doesn't mean that they are a mixer, they want stolen bitcoins to service.



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October 15, 2020, 03:05:37 PM
 #12

Most of them send bitcoins they receive back to their next clients sooner or later..
Mixing is basically breaking the link between 2 wallets, it does not mean that the funds you receive as an output from the mixer cannot be coupled to any illegal activity... And that shouldn't be a problem either: can you prove that any fiat money in your wallet was never stolen or used to buy illegal narcotics?

Interesting.
Digital fiat currencies aren't that transparent. I don't know of anyway to prove that apart from trusting those who control them "privately" to prove it. The case is different with Bitcoin... it's public and transparent, and lots of activities/transactions on its network can be seen and possibly tracked by anyone.

In regard to mixing stolen money by mixing services, I wonder if any of them have been caught deliberately mixing stolen bitcoins. That will be very immoral.



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October 15, 2020, 03:14:12 PM
 #13

Why do mixing companies want stolen bitcoins? Don't they get tracked by the FBI? Even if 1 bitcoin is stolen, it can be tracked. What do they do it after they receive it? Do they sell it for monero?
Mixing as a service is provided for everyone to have privacy and they will not monitor the source of your coins nor will ask you to fill in a form and reveal your identity and that is the whole purpose of mixing  Tongue. It is possible to track the mixed coins, all mixer does is split the coins into several multiple transaction and you will get the coins that are not related to your wallet and it is a rinse and repeat process.

In the future we might hear people getting caught using mixed coins if some of the coins you received came from hacked sources, with many companies monitoring these transactions it is highly possible we might see those scenarios in the future.


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October 15, 2020, 03:22:20 PM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (2)
 #14

But to do that, then you must investigate and trace all deposits. You must keep logs of all the deposits, and you must use blockchain analysis tools on every deposit to see if it is stolen or has links with any illegal activity. Any coins which are flagged up by your algorithm are then locked or seized. At that point, your mixer is essentially no different to depositing and withdrawing coins from a centralized exchange. It is not private, it is not safe, and no one with any sense is going to use it.

It's the same principle as governments trying to ban encryption or force back doors in to encryption software to "stop the terrorists". Once you allow the privacy to be compromised for anyone, then it is useless for everyone.

And there can be a huge problem with false positives, since every coin has some precentage of taint to it, so you could be freezing legitimate funds. Or someone who wants to breach others privacy could contact you and pretend they are a victim of a theft and request your data about certain transactions.

If I ran a mixer I absolutely would reject stolen coins that are directly traceable. You can be an enabler of privacy and not criminality. If it's a bit murky so be it, if it's straight from an outrageously publicised theft then I would refuse to aid their getaway. Needless heat and helping scum to profit is not my idea of fun.

If there's something like a very recent exchange hack and you're 1000% sure that this is the stolen money, than it makes sense, but if you try to, like o_e_l_e_o said, verify every single transaction, it would do more harm than good.





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October 15, 2020, 03:29:46 PM
 #15

...
Why do mixing companies want stolen bitcoins? Don't they get tracked by the FBI? Even if 1 bitcoin is stolen, it can be tracked. What do they do it after they receive it? Do they sell it for monero?

i can't believe that service is legal, but what i know is they have some nice skills and algorithms to mix the coins and avoid tracking. I don't think they buy monero because for that they should send the bitcoins to an exchange.


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October 15, 2020, 03:34:46 PM
 #16

If there's something like a very recent exchange hack and you're 1000% sure that this is the stolen money, than it makes sense, but if you try to, like o_e_l_e_o said, verify every single transaction, it would do more harm than good.

Of course, and I wouldn't have the time anyway and I presume mixers can't be arsed because of that. But if it's red hot and direct from the source then I would choose not to aid them.
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October 15, 2020, 03:44:50 PM
 #17

Why do mixing companies want stolen bitcoins?
depends on the mixer , i guess its possible for them to know if where the coins came from . they can wait for a while if there will be people that will claim the coin and declare that it was stolen and the mixer can refuse the transaction but there could be mixer that dont care but only care for the profits .

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Don't they get tracked by the FBI? Even if 1 bitcoin is stolen, it can be tracked. What do they do it after they receive it? Do they sell it for monero?
why will they track by fbi .they are just doing a business  but if fbi declare a rule related to stolen coins , they will do what i said earlier which is inspection . why will they sell it for monero ? they are the mixer them selves . the profit can be keep and use for thier personal needs

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October 15, 2020, 04:00:13 PM
 #18

Most probably mixer collects fresh funds from peer to peer exchange and they would create many transactions to make trace longer. And that's how mixer collects again fresh funds. They would exchange it for monero or other coins and eventually hold bitcoin for their mixer. I am in one mixing chat group called jambler, they only exchange BTC to BTC with some extra return. As I noticed from them that they accept only funds from LocalBitcoins and stock exchange. Then they pay a few percentages extra funds to the exchanger.

If I ran a mixer I absolutely would reject stolen coins that are directly traceable.
I think it wouldn't easy since you have to trace the transaction then block it. If you do like this, then no one will use your mixer due to fear of loss. Also, we know about hack or scams after revealed it. News spread only when hacked big exchanges. But there is very little news about the small hack. Hackers would mix their stolen coins before revealed the news. Who knows if hackers make a withdrawal directly to the mixer address. Then even you can't trace them that they are hackers if they make a small transaction.





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October 15, 2020, 04:07:25 PM
 #19

I think it wouldn't easy since you have to trace the transaction then block it. If you do like this, then no one will use your mixer due to fear of loss.

I didn't say it was practical or feasible. It no doubt is not.

I guess you could run a 'nice' mixer with Carebears and stuff on the main page and farm out a horrible one with photos of axes and roadkill and stuff. Then I'd lease that to the FBI.
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October 15, 2020, 04:20:15 PM
 #20

Mixing isn't made or this purpose, it is just that criminals find it a very easy way to get out and leave no shadow behind. Does mixing companies want stolen bitcoins? Basically, NO, who wants to be involved in a crime at all? Besides, I don't think mixing companies would not be that too reliable or the authorities to investigate, how are they going to know who tried to mixed a stolen $100K from an exchange?

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