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Author Topic: betcoin.AG SCAM - confiscated around 0.5 btc from a winning account  (Read 545 times)
KILLYMNE (OP)
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December 06, 2020, 04:15:48 PM
 #21

Its lie. I never been contacted by Sbr. I make report long time ago but they never answer me.
I also sent to SBR selfie with id from my house etc etc...
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zikzik
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December 06, 2020, 04:23:49 PM
 #22

These accounts were quick to accept the mediator decision on 1 account but not on the second, where it didn't benefit them. We were happy to abide by the mediator decision from the start, and did just that.

PLEASE STOP LYING

As far as i know (and the other user just confirmed it here) SBR was in talks ONLY with me. I have accepted the decision where my money was returned in FULL.

But to say that i have made some decisions for both accounts IS A LIE.

I NEVER MADE ANY DECISION FOR THE SECOND ACCOUNT, AS I AM NOT THE OWNER OF THAT ACCOUNT.
SBR was talking ONLY to me and the decision i made (to agree to a full return of my money) was ONLY FOR MY account OBVIOUSLY.

SBR (or betcoin.ag) has NEVER TALKED to the other account owner !!!

Betcoin.ag just keeps lying.
The good thing EVERYBODY, now i can prove more and more of their lies. They LIED EVEN TO SBR. And i have PROOF of that. In the coming days i will be releasing more and more info about the scam practices that Betcoin.ag is taking.

They though they can buy me out, paying me my full money. But they still want to punish my reputation and make me look like a scammer.

I WILL NOT ALLOW IT.

I (and ONLY I) made a deal with you, when you return my money and i close all the forum posts and end this situation (which is of course not good for you). I fulfilled my obligations, I DID ALL THAT YOU ASKED (wrote a nice sorry message, closed the forum thread, etc). BUT you now try to make me a scammer again and steal another person's money because of me. My reputation is very important for me and because of this i will help KillyPG.

At least i will show all the lies you tell. You were 100% sure before that i will loose a mediation case, because of your 100500 pages report on "how i scammed you" (i actually lost money with you remember? lol). BUT IN THE END YOU WERE HAPPY TO PAY ME IN FULL

That is all because i am not a scammer. AND I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WIHT THE KILLYPG ACCOUNT

and I WILL PROVE IT !!!!!!!!!!!!
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December 07, 2020, 08:25:56 PM
 #23

I have posted it in my thread, and will also do the same here. I will finally reveal all the information guys, it will certainly open your eyes on the practices betcoin.ag takes. They dont want to admit their mistakes - FINE, let everybody know about them PROVEN BY FACTS.


So, concerning KillyPG account, Betcoin.ag claims that i was opened and operated my me.

This accusation is supported by only two facts:

1. The deposit to KillyPG account was made from the same btc wallet address as one of the deposits to my account
2. They claim that the betting pattern of KillyPG is the same as my betting patter (that is we took the same bets in order to "abuse their system by circumventing the betting limits")

THERE IS NOTHING ELSE that they have, that can support their claim that it was me who opened and operated the KillyPG account. I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT NOW, as i have been in the mediation case with SBR and was presented with all the facts and accusations that betcoin.ag have.

There is nothing else to connect the account with me. We are different people in different countries. KillyPG did not break any rules, he did not use any VPNs and his country Montenegro is perfectly allowed on betcoin.ag platform.

SO THAT IS IT. ALL THE ACCUSATIONS ARE BASED ON TWO CLAIMS ABOVE.


Remember that now we are only concerned with the KillyPG account. My account is out of the question now, the fact that i have used VPNs and other stuff is not relevant anymore, because the case of my account is closed and i did get my money in full back.

Betcoin.ag refused to pay KillyPG's winning from his account, accusing him of the two things above.

Now i did admit the #1 claim in my very first post and still consider that there was nothing wrong with this fact. KillyPG is not a crypto user and as i have owed him money - he simply asked me to pay him back via depositing to his betcoin.ag account, as he did not even have a btc wallet to use.

Now the interesting part about the "fact #2" is that I (and other forum users) have been asking betcoin.ag rep to provide in this topic the list of all the bets i took and the bets KillyPG took for all of us to see, HOW WE HAVE BEEN "abusing their system by circumventing the betting limits". Remember, betcoin.ag claims that i have opened this extra KillyPG account for this very exact reason.

So I have been asking betcoin.ag to provide this info here (KillyPG also authorized them to disclose his bets here) for weeks, but they ALWAYS REFUSED TO DO IT.

I mean WHY WOULD THEY NOT WANT TO DO IT? It woud "certainly" prove their point Wink

I have been saying all along, that they would not do it simply because anybody with a brain cell would right away see that the two accounts are operated by different people (bettors with different betting patterns, different styles and different bets).

I have also asked the SBR mediator to request this info from betcoin.ag, but he did not do it also, as he felt i should get my money back regardless and he did not go into those details.

So betcoing.ag would not release the bet lists as they knew it would prove i am not connected to the KillyPG account. Thats was a nice situation for them Wink

Fortunately for KillyPG, when betcoin.ag was forced to pay back my money (and KillyPG also), they did it by reopening accounts for the purpose of withdrawing. When i logged in i saw that i could copy all the information from the account and i advised KillyPG to do the same.

SO NOW WE HAVE THE FULL BET LISTS OF BOTH ACCOUNTS Wink
Betcoin.AG
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December 08, 2020, 08:12:17 AM
Last edit: December 08, 2020, 08:32:20 AM by Betcoin.AG
 #24

The deal was that everyone would abide by the decision of the mediator, who was in frequent communication with both parties and spent many hours analyzing evidence. This recommendation was that both accounts were to receive the lesser of the amount between the account balance and total of deposits. We were informed by the mediator that it is SBR policy to return deposits, as they do not support punitive actions upon players.

We were disappointed with the result, but ensured that both accounts were paid within the hour. Zik013 received 1.1 BTC (the account balance, which was less than the total of deposits). KillyPG received 0.1 BTC (The deposit amount, which was less than the account balance).

Since punitive damages were not allowed to be collected, the mediator also suggested that as part of the agreement, Zik013 would have to close his thread, mark it as resolved and make a post showing that he believes our actions were justified. Zik013 was also informed by the mediator at that time that while he would be receiving the account balance, the KillyPG account would be receiving deposit only.

Prior to posting these recent updates, Zik013 sent us a message saying that if we did not pay KillyPG his winnings, he would post negative things about us in various forums. Considering he has "no affiliation with this person", he seems awfully invested in his finances. His claimed reasoning for this is that it affects his tipster business when his clients don't get their winnings. Perhaps someone worried about the sustainability of their tipster business should be more concerned about the fact that he posted in this thread several times that he was a losing gambler.

Less than a week after being paid, Zik013 has gone back on his agreement, reopened the thread and continues to defame Betcoin. We believe that this is the true “scam”, since part of the deal to receive his funds was that his thread be marked resolved and closed and once he received his payment, he went back on that.

Below we will post a statement from the SBR mediator regarding the results of this case.

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December 08, 2020, 08:17:30 AM
 #25

The following is an unedited statement from the mediator in the case:

My name is Brad Scott and I work with SBR (sportsbookreview.com) helping players resolve disputes with sportsbooks.
 
I have been asked to provide a statement for public consumption regarding the complaint submitted by Betcoin.ag user ZIK013, so am addressing this to the wider crypto betting community.
 
Brief Background:

Betcoin.ag decided that user ZIK013 was playing from The Ukraine, was working with a syndicate from that country and was multi-accounting with account KillyPG.
 
They wanted to confiscate the account balances in line with their stated policy regarding The Ukraine  https://www.betcoin.ag/suspending-service-russia-and-ukraine-effective-immediately
 
SBR was asked to advocate for ZIK013 and after reviewing the available evidence advised ZIK013 that trying to come to an amicable agreement was the best option to see him paid.
 
Betcoin.ag said that if ZIK013 would make a public statement on the Bitcointalk forum saying that he understood why Betcoin were so suspicious and were not unreasonable to have acted as they did, and SBR would provide a report to back up that post, they would treat this as a simple multi-accounting case and not invoke their rule regarding The Ukraine

ZIK013 agreed to this, made the requested post on Bitcointalk forum, and was allowed to withdraw the account balance of that account, and the total deposits that had been made to the KillyPG account. This is what I advised ZIK013 would happen and is in line with fair industry practice for multi accounting, the lesser of current balance or total deposits.
 
ZIK013 has changed his mind after being paid, so Betcoin has asked SBR to provide the promised report.
 
SBR Role:

SBR is not a regulator and does not make “orders”. We attempt to mediate fair solutions to disputes that both parties can be satisfied with and agree to. Confidence that the wider offshore industry can be trusted, without the onerous rules of onshore regulation, is the goal.
 
We advocate for the player and try to avoid doing anything that might compromise their position, so it is with regret that I am now forced to honor the agreement and provide a public explanation of the mediation process.
 
This is not a ruling, just an explanation of the steps taken to find the best possible solution for the person we are advocating for.
 
Betcoin Allegations:

1) Playing from The Ukraine
2) Controlling more than one account & circumventing betting limits
3) Working as part of a Ukrainian syndicate
 
Evidence Offered:

1) Playing from The Ukraine

Betcoin offered activity logs where on three occasions the account was logged in from a VPN connection which changes to the same retail Ukraine ISP owned IP, causing an auto logout. The same regional VPN IP range was used both before and after these logout events, which Betcoin say is indicative of a VPN system drop out and reset.
 
I asked ZIK013 if he had any idea how this could happen.  He said he uses a multi layer setup involving virtual machines, TOR and rotating IPs from five VPN companies and it must have been from that. I said it appeared unlikely any of the 5 companies he named would control that IP and did he know if any of his providers offered “undetectable” or “retail” IPs. He said he did not really understand the system very well but some online friends had helped him set it up and one of them may have included their home IP from inside Ukraine in the rotation.

I thought that explanation brought up more questions than it answered, and there was no evidence of rotating IPs in the logs I was shown to support the theory, so decided it would be fruitless to go any further into this angle.

I asked what KYC proof ZIK013 could offer to show where he is.

ZIK013 said he is located at an address around 10 hours driving time from the suspect Ukraine IP, and in a different country. He said that he could offer passport and utility bills, a photo of himself outside his house which can be identified from Google Earth, an on demand video, or anything else within reason.
 
I believe this is more than enough to meet normal justifiable ID standards and is sufficient for ZIK013 to refute the claim that he is in The Ukraine.
 
Betcoin did not agree with that assessment, saying their experience is that operatives for the suspected group are always armed with fake KYC documents or use a “gnome” stand-in.

2) Controlling more than one account & circumventing betting limits

Betcoin is able to show that the ZIK013 and KillyPG accounts have been funded from the same source.
 
Betcoin offered six examples of the two accounts making the same maximum limit bets within less then 1 minute of each other.
 
Betcoin alleged that ZIK013 has been communicating on behalf of the KillyPG account and offered a number of examples comparing the writing style to justify their claim. I could not argue with their analysis.
 
ZIK013 said that KillyPG has made many bets that are not the same as his apart from these few examples, and is in control of his own account.
 
He says KillyPG is a subscriber to his Blogabet service and as such follows most of his bets soon after posted.

He said that the account funding was him innocently paying back money he owed and denied that he had ever communicated pretending to be the KillyPG account.

I sent ZIK013 three of Betcoin’s example bets and asked him to send me a link to Blogabet where he had posted those, hopefully just before KillyPG bet them.
 
I also asked ZIK013 if he was able to provide anything we can use to show how the money owed had originally changed hands, to support that story.

None of those three bets had been posted to Blogabet but ZIK013 provided evidence of a Telegram session where he says he shared those bets with private subscribers only.

He was unable to think of anything that could be used to help show it was a real debt.

I explained to ZIK013 that whether KillyPG is genuinely another person and all activity is innocent or not, Betcoin do have enough evidence to reasonably justify their claim that the accounts are working together and are circumventing their betting limits.

3) Working as part of a Ukrainian syndicate

Betcoin point to the Ukranian IP they detected
 
Betcoin offered examples of bets on lower leagues and alternative markets that they are suspicious of being syndicate plays

Betcoin claim that the source wallet only ever having transacted with the Binance exchange and Betcoin is indicative of how banned Ukrainian syndicates operate.

ZIK013 said he sometimes uses tips from other sources but denies acting on behalf of any other group or person.
 
ZIK013 was asked to show where several bets Betcoin were suspicious about had been posted on Blogabet, as this would go a long way to refuting the claim these were syndicate plays. But they had not been publicly posted.
 
ZIK013 said Betcoin were incorrect about the wallet usage as he had used it to fund several other bookmakers.

I put it to Betcoin that they were wrong about the wallet use history and they responded with this information;

“Here is a graph of their transactions https://imgur.com/a/4PuYgrC

That wallet on the far left starting with 13Taq is the wallet which funded both accounts. The Zik account had several other wallets which funded and received funds from Betcoin, which are part of that triangle on the left.

On the right side you see sending and receiving exposure and orange is for gambling. All Bitcoin gambling sites are a part of this software.
If I click on the orange for that wallet, you will see that it is 100% Betcoin.
https://imgur.com/a/VNzaTdG
 
To be thorough, I also checked the other 2 private wallets that were related to Betcoin and they are both 100% exposure to only Betcoin, as well.
https://imgur.com/a/N1LJFUA
https://imgur.com/a/hZOnzT2
 
He does have some other transactions which came directly from the Binance exchange but the wallet which was used to fund the Killy account and 1 of Zik's deposits was 100% only used for Betcoin.”
 
I explained to ZIK013 that although Betcoin are only assuming this is the case, I think they are not being unreasonable to be suspicious.
 
Resolution:

Given the weaknesses on both sides of the argument I suggested an agreement to allow both parties to get most of what they want. Betcoin to be cleared of the wrong doing that has been alleged, and ZIK013 to be paid out.

ZIK013 made the requested conciliatory public post and was paid his full balance, as it was less than his deposits, and the KillyPG account had all betting cancelled and the total deposits refunded, as the balance was higher than the deposits.

This is in line with SBR policy and fair industry practice and I think was the best solution for both parties in these circumstances.

I hope this helps provide some clarity for the bitcoin betting community.

KILLYMNE (OP)
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December 08, 2020, 08:52:42 AM
 #26

i write sbr report in October but i dont received answer by SBR even once time. I have on my desire sent to SBR evidence of my proof for living in Montenegro, but have not received any reply from SBR.

I gave the other user the list of all my bets, and you can see them all here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55777264#msg55777264

I was betting myself, some bets i took from Jimin the famous tipster, from his telegram amazing group
But you can see this bets are just small % of my total bets. I bet lot of more mine own picks.
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December 08, 2020, 08:56:04 AM
 #27

ZIK013 has changed his mind after being paid, so Betcoin has asked SBR to provide the promised report.
 

I have not changed my mind. But in all my dealings with SBR i could of course only speak about MYSELF.
I have no affiliation with the KillyPG account and as such i could not possible have had ANY DEALS about that account.

I am happy with the resolution of my own account, but in all the communications with the SBR i have repeated that i am not connected with the KillyPG account.
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December 08, 2020, 09:36:37 AM
 #28

Less than a week after being paid, Zik013 has gone back on his agreement, reopened the thread and continues to defame Betcoin. We believe that this is the true “scam”, since part of the deal to receive his funds was that his thread be marked resolved and closed and once he received his payment, he went back on that.

You keep lying.
THE DEAL WAS ABOUT MY ACCOUNT.
I could not have had any agreement about KillyPG account because IT IS NOT MINE.

As he stated several times already, he had made the SBR report long time ago, but NOBODY answered him.

You are just keep lying and scamming customers. But this time it DID NOT WORK.

You were afraid and HAD TO PAY ME. You wanted to shut my mouth. I DID. But you kept calling me a scammer, refused to pay other people BECAUSE OF ME.

YES I AM INVOLVED NOW. My name is involved. I will be involved as long as it takes for you to apologize and acknowledge that i am not a scammer, pay KillyPG his WINNINGS and close the case.

YOU WERE SO SURE that i would not get my money back from you. But you have already paid my 1.1 BTC and you will have to pay KillyPG also. Otherwise the whole world will see the scammers you are. I can promise you that.
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December 08, 2020, 09:51:36 AM
 #29

Prior to posting these recent updates, Zik013 sent us a message saying that if we did not pay KillyPG his winnings, he would post negative things about us in various forums.

OF COURSE i will. I will just post the truth about your scamming practices. I dont even have to write lies like you do, only the truth. The people will just figure it out themselves.

And yes, i did warn you. Being a fair person i did write to you first, before posting all my recent findings. I wanted to give you a fair warning. Remeber, it was you who first proposed in the private messages to delete any words about me being a scammer Wink

You were afraid that the public will see your scammings, and you still are. That is why you paid me. To shut my mouth. But you kept calling me a scammer and that was your big mistake.
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