P2P gambling idea - discussion

[AB de Royse777]

Years ago I was thinking about creating a system which will have restaurants and clients database. Clients will be able to choose a restaurant near them and the restaurant will deliver the food to their (clients) door. There will be a review system so both party will maintain a minimum quality for not losing their reputation.

- My girlfriend at that time answered: That's Just Eat
Before that I never heard of Just Eat. So I looked on the web and felt so frustrated that someone already had the idea and already built a decent market. At that time Just Eat had just started according to my research.

Earlier today I was thinking :
How about a betting platform where user A will offer an odd of his choice in a match/event/anything X, if user B likes this offer then they will accept it. Simple P2P betting.
We will provide the platform. The source of income for the platform owners will be a small percentage of every winning by users. Win - win for both users and platform owners.

Obviously this will be a Bitcoin featured platform.

PS: After a quick search I found a project which is on Ethereum smart contract. They are saying it's decentralized and I do not know how decentralization works in here since they are collecting a fee which means there is a central unit who are maintaining and monitoring everything. Maybe they are talking about the application which is a desktop application and since every user will download a copy of the application does that make it decentralized? I have no problem on sharing their site name. The name is: kryptium.io

Anyway, my idea is of a centralized platform like other casino/sportsbook but the difference here are that the players are playing against each others rather than betting against the house.

I would love to hear some opinion about this P2P platform idea. Please share your creative observation and features that could be useful to enhance the platform. Also, don't hesitate to leave your pessimistic thoughts too.

[1715207624]

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[1715207624]

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[AB de Royse777]

Some thoughts from ongoing discussions:

- Will have a central database as backend and regular frontend like any other bookies
- A fee will be taken from the winner or bet based or even no fees just a donation based platform.

[Csmiami]

I do kind of like the idea; but I would change at least one thing: Instead of getting the fee on the winnings; it may be better to charge that fee on the base bet, win or loose.

Apart from that; have you tought about what sports/cattegories/things would people be able to create bets? I suppose it'd be the platforms' responsibility to check the final result of a certain match/competition and that may restric some "local" bets of sorts

[betnomi]

This is a very appealing idea. We did some research regarding building something long these lines but there are a few technical challenges as far as making it completely decentralized and that is the "Oracle problem" as stated by @ETFbitcoin. Its a very difficult problem but not impossible to solve. If there is enough traction for this concept, count on us for our full support in any capacity.

[Vod]

This is a very appealing idea.

Of course it's appealing - that's why it would be illegal.   

[Yogee]

Does it really have to be decentralized? There will be a market for that even if it's not if you introduced it here since members are trusting their money on centralized gambling platforms already.

You actually reminded me of a topic I planned to create a few days ago. I wanted to ask if there was a specific thread in the gambling section where members can bet on sports since I haven't seen one. It's just like betting in your local neighborhood and someone will act as an escrow.

[NotATether]

Does it really have to be decentralized? There will be a market for that even if it's not if you introduced it here since members are trusting their money on centralized gambling platforms already.

There is one benefit in making a decentralized betting platform, people in restricted countries can also play there, and nobody will be asked for KYC before deposits and withdrawals. There are already some centralized casinos that don’t have these restrictions like SWC Poker and 777Coin but there is always a small but non-zero risk that one day they might want to get a license and so will have to implement these restrictions.

A decentralized casino respects people’s privacy while not running afoul with law enforcement at the same time.

[notblox1]

Anyway, my idea is of a centralized platform like other casino/sportsbook but the difference here are that the players are playing against each others rather than betting against the house.

Problem with this is how are you going to find liquidity and interest for people to place bets, and to trust your website.

Plus, you will need to have some kind of license for betting, or someone could just not allow people to register and bet.
You would probably need to have Curacao or some similar license.

[khaled0111]

PS: After a quick search I found a project which is on Ethereum smart contract. They are saying it's decentralized and I do not know how decentralization works in here since they are collecting a fee which means there is a central unit who are maintaining and monitoring everything.

Fees will be collected by the smart contract itself and probably will be sent to the dev's wallet. So, no, it doesn't require any human intervention.
The challenge here is if you are going to let players bet on anything they want, from where the smart contract will get the result of that bet? They are not really that smart after all! I believe this is what ETFbitcoin meant by the "oracle problem".
The project you mentioned, for example, gives you a list of upcoming events from which you can choose which one to bet on but you can't create your own event.

[Yogee]

Does it really have to be decentralized? There will be a market for that even if it's not if you introduced it here since members are trusting their money on centralized gambling platforms already.

There is one benefit in making a decentralized betting platform, people in restricted countries can also play there, and nobody will be asked for KYC before deposits and withdrawals. There are already some centralized casinos that don’t have these restrictions like SWC Poker and 777Coin but there is always a small but non-zero risk that one day they might want to get a license and so will have to implement these restrictions.

A decentralized casino respects people’s privacy while not running afoul with law enforcement at the same time.

We are talking about Royse777 plan here and not other casinos. I don't know what he's thinking but I don't even see this platform getting a license if it ever comes to fruition to be honest. It's also supposed to be a P2P so it wouldn't make sense to ban anyone based on their location. Maybe he could just asked for donation from winners instead of commission so the less likelihood of dealing with authorities in the future.

[AB de Royse777]

Betting on real life match/event/anything X? You fall to classic "Oracle problem", which uusally happen when you attempt to combine P2P system and real life event.

This is a very appealing idea. We did some research regarding building something long these lines but there are a few technical challenges as far as making it completely decentralized and that is the "Oracle problem" as stated by @ETFbitcoin. Its a very difficult problem but not impossible to solve. If there is enough traction for this concept, count on us for our full support in any capacity.

I looked on google about this "Oracle problem", I am not much into programming or algorithm but what I understand is - this is something to do with decentralized platform. I was thinking about a centralized system with a database in the backend and a frontend like regular bookmakers.

I do kind of like the idea; but I would change at least one thing: Instead of getting the fee on the winnings; it may be better to charge that fee on the base bet, win or loose.

We can set a commission structure however we want that should not be a concern.

Apart from that; have you tought about what sports/cattegories/things would people be able to create bets? I suppose it'd be the platforms' responsibility to check the final result of a certain match/competition and that may restric some "local" bets of sorts

Uses can have any sorts of bet in mind. As long as there are interest for others (at-least one) to accept the odd he offered, the platform should work. They will settle the bet, there will be no need for admin team unless they come to a disagreement of the outcome of the result.

For example one can offer:
SRH will win against DC and SRH will score over 185 runs, odd: 2.95
The user will also define the highest bet he will accept.
Now one or more user can accept this bet with any amount they want as long as the total risk amount for the odd creator does not exists.

If the odd creator lose then he will just hit a key that will say lost.
The users who accepted the odd will also have a button where they will hit won

If both hit does not conflict then it's a correct outcome and both party does not have a disagreement means the system will release the fund to the winners. In the case of not hitting any button, maybe the system will wait for x amount of hours before responding to at least one hit. The winning guy will always hit his buttons, at least I will do if I win something.

Of course it's appealing - that's why it would be illegal.   

What is illegal, P2P betting? I doubt.

Problem with this is how are you going to find liquidity and interest for people to place bets, and to trust your website.

Aren't we trusting all those bookies one way or other? It's a part of any business and reputation does not build up overnight. There will be ups and downs of course.

Plus, you will need to have some kind of license for betting, or someone could just not allow people to register and bet.
You would probably need to have Curacao or some similar license.

This is something I find ironic. We are all into bitcoin, crypto but we talk about licensing by centralized body :-D

Anyway, my goal is to have a business which will build up with the reputation we have in bitcointalk. If the business lose trust or end up having bad reputation in the community then there are no other way to stay in. Isn't it possible? It sounds out of the box though but I think this should be a standard business practice if we are doing it with crypto especially Bitcoin. In bitcoin community we trust.

The project you mentioned, for example, gives you a list of upcoming events from which you can choose which one to bet on but you can't create your own event.

Users will actually create their own listing. Please read above example.

We are talking about Royse777 plan here and not other casinos. I don't know what he's thinking but I don't even see this platform getting a license if it ever comes to fruition to be honest. It's also supposed to be a P2P so it wouldn't make sense to ban anyone based on their location. Maybe he could just asked for donation from winners instead of commission so the less likelihood of dealing with authorities in the future.

Perfect guess!
It will be a P2P so will be open for everyone. Maybe we will have a reputation system. A well reputed user in the platform will always have an edge in everything I guess.
The idea of donation is good too so that only happy customers are contributing in the expense of the site. However, a fee can be introduced in anytime too depending on the acceptance of the idea in the business if only donation does not cover the expense.

[Csmiami]

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Well, the only thing I can think of is that even if the creator of the bet specifies the max amount he is ready to bet on a single one; what would happen if a single user took the whole bet?

Example:

User A creates the bet for the match you've specified:

Code:

SRH will win against DC and SRH will score over 185 runs, odd: 2.95

He has a balance of 0.05BTC (I suppose that there needs to be some balance that would be locked to be able to create the bet). And he would like to bet all. A total amount of 0,0169491525423729BTC could be placed as a single bet by an unknown amount of users; right? So if someone places a bet of 0.012; would a third person also be able to create a bet of 0.012, or would they be restricted to 0,0049491525423729? Common sense makes me think so.

But, in the same situation, if someone was to bet in the other outcome (say, SRH looses @ 1.05), would people be able to place a bet based on the balance of the creator, or the balance+the bet on other odds?

Not sure I'm explaining myself here

[AB de Royse777]

----

Well, the only thing I can think of is that even if the creator of the bet specifies the max amount he is ready to bet on a single one; what would happen if a single user took the whole bet?

Example:

User A creates the bet for the match you've specified:

Code:

SRH will win against DC and SRH will score over 185 runs, odd: 2.95

He has a balance of 0.05BTC (I suppose that there needs to be some balance that would be locked to be able to create the bet). And he would like to bet all. A total amount of 0,0169491525423729BTC could be placed as a single bet by an unknown amount of users; right? So if someone places a bet of 0.012; would a third person also be able to create a bet of 0.012, or would they be restricted to 0,0049491525423729? Common sense makes me think so.

The reason for a list creator (the person who is offering a market) to have a limit is to ensure that he has available balance to make the payment. Of course one has to have a balance before creating a list.

Say the max limit is 10 of an offered odd.
One user took the offer and risked 2, which means now the max limit is 10 - 2
Anyone can take the offer as long as the max limit is 0

But, in the same situation, if someone was to bet in the other outcome (say, SRH looses @ 1.05), would people be able to place a bet based on the balance of the creator, or the balance+the bet on other odds?

This will require another listing and it could be any user.

[Csmiami]

---

well, that's some great thing. If you ever happen to need some help either brainstorming or with anything that's witgin my skillset; don't doubt to count me in

[AB de Royse777]

well, that's some great thing. If you ever happen to need some help either brainstorming or with anything that's witgin my skillset; don't doubt to count me in

I always have this dream to have a community based business which will run, manage by some community members and the entire community will have the benefit from it. Everyone will work online anonymously and bitcoin will be the currency system.

If this idea triggers enough interest then I will make an official topic about the project and will try to build a team for it. First let's see if we have a good market for this.

[shield132]

Wait wait, isn't betfair offering bet exchanges and p2p betting? If I amn't mistaken, you can offer custom odds to users and at the same time you can act as a sportsbook and accept bets from customers. So, your idea still exists It's called BetFair
My friend works in Flutter Entertainment and he told me that right now they don't plan to accept crypto payments but we may see it in two years, there was some discussion about it but nothing significant. I think PayPal's decision will push others to do the same and accelerate the adoption of cryptocurrencies by other major companies.

[AB de Royse777]

Wait wait, isn't betfair offering bet exchanges and p2p betting? If I amn't mistaken, you can offer custom odds to users and at the same time you can act as a sportsbook and accept bets from customers. So, your idea still exists It's called BetFair
My friend works in Flutter Entertainment and he told me that right now they don't plan to accept crypto payments but we may see it in two years, there was some discussion about it but nothing significant. I think PayPal's decision will push others to do the same and accelerate the adoption of cryptocurrencies by other major companies.

Thanks for ruining the party LOL
However, would you mind sharing the link, I could not see a tab or menu for it to visit and see how it is.

I am not surprised at all by the way. There should be service like this in a lot of corners in the world, the possibility is that we have not discovered them yet.

[shield132]

Wait wait, isn't betfair offering bet exchanges and p2p betting? If I amn't mistaken, you can offer custom odds to users and at the same time you can act as a sportsbook and accept bets from customers. So, your idea still exists It's called BetFair
My friend works in Flutter Entertainment and he told me that right now they don't plan to accept crypto payments but we may see it in two years, there was some discussion about it but nothing significant. I think PayPal's decision will push others to do the same and accelerate the adoption of cryptocurrencies by other major companies.

Thanks for ruining the party LOL
However, would you mind sharing the link, I could not see a tab or menu for it to visit and see how it is.

I am not surprised at all by the way. There should be service like this in a lot of corners in the world, the possibility is that we have not discovered them yet.

Oh sorry, I didn't want to ruin the "fun" but I was amazed that no one above me mentioned betfair
Here is the link: BetFair
You can find official guides on their websites too, check this: How to place a bet on the Betfair Exchange

Also, this is the link of their community: Betfair Community
Here you can see the youtube video guide too from BetFair: How to use The Betfair Exchange | Trading Football with Dimitar Berbatov
Well, have a good luck!

[Joel_Jantsen]

- My girlfriend at that time answered: That's Just Eat
Before that I never heard of Just Eat. So I looked on the web and felt so frustrated that someone already had the idea and already built a decent market. At that time Just Eat had just started according to my research.

To be honest, if you would have started a better App than Just-Eat, you would be successful. Just-Eat has a terrible UI and much worse business model. If I place an order from my phone directly to the restaurant, I sure can save a fiver.

Earlier today I was thinking :
How about a betting platform where user A will offer an odd of his choice in a match/event/anything X, if user B likes this offer then they will accept it. Simple P2P betting.
We will provide the platform. The source of income for the platform owners will be a small percentage of every winning by users. Win - win for both users and platform owners.

This has been done/presented numerous times before and AFAIK, there are a few websites in operations providing the same service.

I would love to hear some opinion about this P2P platform idea. Please share your creative observation and features that could be useful to enhance the platform. Also, don't hesitate to leave your pessimistic thoughts too.

Why would you want to put all the efforts into creating a platform when you can literally have a discord server, a trusted escrow with minimal escrow fee, and someone to manage all of it? I mean you can start from this and if it's getting big, you can start with an actual website.

[Kakmakr]

This is a very appealing idea.

Of course it's appealing - that's why it would be illegal.   

We also know that most "new" ideas that are challenging the traditional ideas ... must protect themselves against retribution in the form of decentralization. The flaw in this idea is the fact that the project would be centralized and that it will become a target for it's enemies.

The professional betting scene are tightly controlled and regulated within the financial system, with KYC requirements and also tax implications.

I would rather create a decentralized platform that can challenge the norm and proof the concept, without having to worry about being targeted or being shut down, just because they are pushing the boundaries. 

[AB de Royse777]

This has been done/presented numerous times before and AFAIK, there are a few websites in operations providing the same service.

I see an example here but this is not what I was thinking exactly.

Why would you want to put all the efforts into creating a platform when you can literally have a discord server, a trusted escrow with minimal escrow fee, and someone to manage all of it? I mean you can start from this and if it's getting big, you can start with an actual website.

This way I and if I have a team will need to have touch in every point but my idea is everything in between the users. If any case comes for admin to involve then they will act as resolution team. I think this only possible if there is a complete web application.

To be honest, if you would have started a better App than Just-Eat, you would be successful. Just-Eat has a terrible UI and much worse business model. If I place an order from my phone directly to the restaurant, I sure can save a fiver.

I guess I lost my interest at the end so could not move forward.