Should I use mixers?

[pugman]

I'm not sure I follow what you mean here. You want to use a decentralized exchange to mix your coins? Why would you not just use a tried and tested mixer such as ChipMixer instead? Or do you mean a decentralized exchange which will not discriminate against you for trading mixed coins or mixing your withdrawals?

I'm confused, are you looking for:
1. decentralized exchange,
2. decentralized mixer or
3. decentralized exchange which also have mixing protocol (such as PayJoin) ?

I seem to have caused a bit of confusion, let me rephrase:

I am looking for exchanges that won't block my account/amount if I withdraw or deposit the funds using a mixer. That is what I meant. I don't care all that much if I use a centralized exchange but I do care if my funds get blocked by the exchange. Do I make sense to you guys, or am I playing the lead role from Dumb and Dumber?

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[o_e_l_e_o]

I am looking for exchanges that won't block my account/amount if I withdraw or deposit the funds using a mixer.

That makes perfect sense. The safest option is to use decentralized, peer to peer exchanges in which the only place you deposit bitcoin to is a multisig escrow address where you share the keys with the party you are trading with. That way, there is no way to freeze your coins if the exchange doesn't like your use of mixers (although true decentralized exchanges obviously don't care what you do with your coins, as it should be).

For trading between fiat and bitcoin or a select few major altcoins, then I would suggest Bisq, Hodl Hodl, or LocalCryptos.

I don't trade shitcoins, so I can't offer a suggestion for a good DEX for them. Be aware that many places which advertise themselves as a DEX are nothing of the sort, though, and simply use it as a marketing tactic.

[pugman]

I am looking for exchanges that won't block my account/amount if I withdraw or deposit the funds using a mixer.

That makes perfect sense. The safest option is to use decentralized, peer to peer exchanges in which the only place you deposit bitcoin to is a multisig escrow address where you share the keys with the party you are trading with. That way, there is no way to freeze your coins if the exchange doesn't like your use of mixers (although true decentralized exchanges obviously don't care what you do with your coins, as it should be).

For trading between fiat and bitcoin or a select few major altcoins, then I would suggest Bisq, Hodl Hodl, or LocalCryptos.

I don't trade shitcoins, so I can't offer a suggestion for a good DEX for them. Be aware that many places which advertise themselves as a DEX are nothing of the sort, though, and simply use it as a marketing tactic.

I have recommended LocalCryptos to multiple people because I know its P2P, but is it actually actually good?

Is there at least a decent enough shitcoin hosting decentralized exchange yet?

Also, does binance prohibit its users from using mixers and such??

[o_e_l_e_o]

I have recommended LocalCryptos to multiple people because I know its P2P, but is it actually actually good?

Depends what criteria you are judging it by. If you judge it by how quick it is to make a trade on a centralized exchange such as Binance, then no DEX will ever be better. However, I do like LocalCryptos and would certainly call it a good DEX. They have a nice escrow system in place, which rather than using multi-sig uses a smart-contract like script which allows parties to share secret codes which each other offline or online to be able to sign the release transaction. You can read more about it here: https://blog.localcryptos.com/how-bitcoin-escrow-works/. It has end to end encrypted messaging by default. It's not quite as good as Bisq from a privacy point of view for obvious reasons, but it is still a good exchange.

[figmentofmyass]

Also, does binance prohibit its users from using mixers and such??

we need to make a distinction between binance.com and its more tightly regulated fiat exchanges. there was a highly publicized case in late 2019 where a binance.sg (singapore) user had his account frozen for sending coins to wasabi wallet and engaging in coinjoins. in response to all the drama, CZ published a blog. if you read between the lines, he is saying binance.com is unregulated and as such, doesn't engage in the same practices:

As a user, you have choices:

-Use a regulated exchange knowing there will be AML checks running in the background, similar to banks. Please make sure that you're following the laws wherever you reside when it comes to crypto trading. It will save yourself and the exchange a lot of trouble. Moving from one exchange to the next won’t help.

-Use a non-regulated exchange, knowing that there are risks here too. Choose your exchange wisely.

if you look in binance.com's terms, they don't mention mixers or coinjoins. i'm not aware of any issues there yet.

I have recommended LocalCryptos to multiple people because I know its P2P, but is it actually actually good?

in terms of liquidity, it's definitely not like LBC was back in the days, but i've had nothing but good experiences on localcryptos. it's the only place i've been able to find p2p cash trades for the last year or so.

[o_e_l_e_o]

if you look in binance.com's terms, they don't mention mixers or coinjoins. i'm not aware of any issues there yet.

Do other centralized exchanges, or even the "regulated" arms of Binance, specifically mention mixers or coinjoins in their terms?

You have highlighted the main issue with using "non-regulated" centralized exchanges: Things can change, and when they do, they often do without warning. Any country in the world could suddenly decide to start clamping down on all exchanges, and the exchanges would respond by either refusing access/locking accounts/freezing coins, or demanding KYC, and give the user no warning whatsoever. This has happened many times before and will happen many times again. Whenever you use any centralized exchange, even ones advertised as no KYC, you take a risk with both your coins and your personal info.

[figmentofmyass]

if you look in binance.com's terms, they don't mention mixers or coinjoins. i'm not aware of any issues there yet.

Do other centralized exchanges, or even the "regulated" arms of Binance, specifically mention mixers or coinjoins in their terms?

gemini does define these activities in their user agreement as "conduct violations":

use on any dark market, ransomware, mixing service (i.e., a mixer or tumbler used to obscure the source of funds), or illegal activity that would violate, or assist in violation of, any Applicable Laws and Regulations (as defined in the ‘Applicable Laws and Regulations’ section), or which would involve proceeds of any unlawful activity.

they're smart enough never to tell customers why their accounts are being closed though, so there are no publicized cases of related account suspensions or terminations.

you're probably correct that explicit mention in the terms doesn't actually matter. some sites probably just lump it under stuff about general BSA compliance or risk mitigation. this clause probably applies in coinbase's case:

By opening a Coinbase Account, you confirm that you will not use Coinbase Services in connection with any of following businesses, activities, practices, or items:
-High risk businesses: any businesses that we believe poses elevated financial risk, legal liability, or violates card network or bank policies

You have highlighted the main issue with using "non-regulated" centralized exchanges: Things can change, and when they do, they often do without warning. Any country in the world could suddenly decide to start clamping down on all exchanges, and the exchanges would respond by either refusing access/locking accounts/freezing coins, or demanding KYC, and give the user no warning whatsoever.

binance has gotten by for years by constantly jumping jurisdictions (china, japan, hong kong, malta, the seychelles, the caymans, etc) and operating very opaquely, but i do wonder how long the game of cat and mouse can continue. there are only so many tax and money laundering havens in the world.

[pugman]

Also, does binance prohibit its users from using mixers and such??

we need to make a distinction between binance.com and its more tightly regulated fiat exchanges. there was a highly publicized case in late 2019 where a binance.sg (singapore) user had his account frozen for sending coins to wasabi wallet and engaging in coinjoins. in response to all the drama, CZ published a blog. if you read between the lines, he is saying binance.com is unregulated and as such, doesn't engage in the same practices:

As a user, you have choices:

-Use a regulated exchange knowing there will be AML checks running in the background, similar to banks. Please make sure that you're following the laws wherever you reside when it comes to crypto trading. It will save yourself and the exchange a lot of trouble. Moving from one exchange to the next won’t help.

-Use a non-regulated exchange, knowing that there are risks here too. Choose your exchange wisely.

if you look in binance.com's terms, they don't mention mixers or coinjoins. i'm not aware of any issues there yet.

I have recommended LocalCryptos to multiple people because I know its P2P, but is it actually actually good?

in terms of liquidity, it's definitely not like LBC was back in the days, but i've had nothing but good experiences on localcryptos. it's the only place i've been able to find p2p cash trades for the last year or so.

I have recommended LocalCryptos to multiple people because I know its P2P, but is it actually actually good?

Depends what criteria you are judging it by. If you judge it by how quick it is to make a trade on a centralized exchange such as Binance, then no DEX will ever be better. However, I do like LocalCryptos and would certainly call it a good DEX. They have a nice escrow system in place, which rather than using multi-sig uses a smart-contract like script which allows parties to share secret codes which each other offline or online to be able to sign the release transaction. You can read more about it here: https://blog.localcryptos.com/how-bitcoin-escrow-works/. It has end to end encrypted messaging by default. It's not quite as good as Bisq from a privacy point of view for obvious reasons, but it is still a good exchange.

Thank you both, its exactly what I wanted to hear. I am looking forward to using LocalCryptos for reals for reals.

On another note, if I withdraw money from these regulated/centralized exchanges, deposit them into a random wallet, then send those funds through a mixer and deposit them into my real wallet, then my account shouldn't be banned. Right? RIGHT? I don't want my account blocked again

[o_e_l_e_o]

On another note, if I withdraw money from these regulated/centralized exchanges, deposit them into a random wallet, then send those funds through a mixer and deposit them into my real wallet, then my account shouldn't be banned. Right? RIGHT?

Yes, no, maybe. These centralized exchanges are neither open nor honest about how they reach the decision to lock an account, about what triggers their automatic algorithms, about how far forward or backwards they trace withdrawals or deposits, and so on. They obviously can't trace every withdrawal ad infinitum, but who knows how many transactions they do trace, and this number will vary between exchanges.

I would expect that a single hop between exchange and mixer, especially if you are just making one-input-one-output transactions, isn't going to make much if any difference to the likelihood of your account being locked. Probably best to find other people who are using the same exchange you are and ask their experiences.

[magneto]

I hope everyone here knows what mixing services are, and for those who don't:

BTC mixers work as a medium, a medium that works like an escrow, gives you back your own coins but on your desired addresses and that too, from different places so for you to become non-traceable at your end. Now, these mixers don't know where these coins will be going to, so it's only you who knows about your coins, your addresses and your transactions.

So, what's the reason behind this thread?

Actually, most exchanges are reluctant to providing their users the authority of using mixers while depositing on their platform and I have heard so many news about exchanges stopping and freezing the account and some didn't even release the account as of today. I'm a privacy conscious person and would like to ask you whether I should still use mixers when depositing on an exchange or not.

I'd go through a checklist to ensure that you are making the optimal decision.

Check up on your particular exchange first. Do they have a historical record of suspending accounts that are suspected of using mixed coins? If yes, then consider whether or not you value privacy or the convenience of the exchange more. There is a real chance that you will never be able to use your account there again if you do get suspended. Coinbase comes to mind as one particular culprit - they love to suspend accounts on every possible suspicion.

If there is no historical record of this type of suspensions, mixers are certainly warranted to protect your privacy. Since CM and others offer their services for free anyway, it's worth using it. Just make sure that you still keep a record of all deposits and transactions for tax purposes.

[shield132]

I hope everyone here knows what mixing services are, and for those who don't:

BTC mixers work as a medium, a medium that works like an escrow, gives you back your own coins but on your desired addresses and that too, from different places so for you to become non-traceable at your end. Now, these mixers don't know where these coins will be going to, so it's only you who knows about your coins, your addresses and your transactions.

So, what's the reason behind this thread?

Actually, most exchanges are reluctant to providing their users the authority of using mixers while depositing on their platform and I have heard so many news about exchanges stopping and freezing the account and some didn't even release the account as of today. I'm a privacy conscious person and would like to ask you whether I should still use mixers when depositing on an exchange or not.

I'd go through a checklist to ensure that you are making the optimal decision.

Check up on your particular exchange first. Do they have a historical record of suspending accounts that are suspected of using mixed coins? If yes, then consider whether or not you value privacy or the convenience of the exchange more. There is a real chance that you will never be able to use your account there again if you do get suspended. Coinbase comes to mind as one particular culprit - they love to suspend accounts on every possible suspicion.

If there is no historical record of this type of suspensions, mixers are certainly warranted to protect your privacy. Since CM and others offer their services for free anyway, it's worth using it. Just make sure that you still keep a record of all deposits and transactions for tax purposes.

What happens if I use two wallet. My main wallet is wallet A but I withdraw money from an exchange to wallet B without any 3rd parties but once I receive money on wallet B, I send it to wallet A that has changeable address too. In case I want super extra security, I send money from wallet A to another new primary address, call it wallet "Main A" and in this transaction, I use mixer. Chipmixer gives us the possibility to have chips with different stakes and as far as I know, you can keep them as long as you wish (not right? Then correct me). And then if I receive 1 bitcoin on mixer, I 'll divide it and sometimes send 0.4 btc, or 0.375.
I ask this because as I see some exchanges block addresses that use mixers, personally I have never had such issue with the mixers that I use. That's why I ask, how do you deal with this problem?

[ChipMixer]

Since CM (...) offer their services for free

It is pay-what-you-want.

Check up on your particular exchange first. Do they have a historical record of suspending accounts that are suspected of using mixed coins? If yes, then consider whether or not you value privacy or the convenience of the exchange more.

Reasons to block are many. Morality, gambling, country of origin. If exchange blocks for any reason - consider changing exchange.

[o_e_l_e_o]

What happens if I use two wallet. My main wallet is wallet A but I withdraw money from an exchange to wallet B without any 3rd parties but once I receive money on wallet B, I send it to wallet A that has changeable address too. In case I want super extra security, I send money from wallet A to another new primary address, call it wallet "Main A" and in this transaction, I use mixer.

So basically you are going:

Exchange -> Address A -> Address B -> Mixer -> Address C

It's difficult for anyone to say for sure, but as I said in my above comment, if an exchange will block your account if you mix your coins immediately after withdrawal, then I can't imagine that a single extra hop is going to make any difference to that, especially if you are moving all the coins in one without any change.

Chipmixer gives us the possibility to have chips with different stakes and as far as I know, you can keep them as long as you wish (not right? Then correct me).

This is correct. You can also combine and coins you have left on ChipMixer with future deposits to further obfuscate your withdrawals.

That's why I ask, how do you deal with this problem?

I deal with this problem by not using centralized exchanges. You can't have your coins seized if they never leave your control.

[pugman]

Yes, no, maybe. These centralized exchanges are neither open nor honest about how they reach the decision to lock an account, about what triggers their automatic algorithms, about how far forward or backwards they trace withdrawals or deposits, and so on. They obviously can't trace every withdrawal ad infinitum, but who knows how many transactions they do trace, and this number will vary between exchanges.

I would expect that a single hop between exchange and mixer, especially if you are just making one-input-one-output transactions, isn't going to make much if any difference to the likelihood of your account being locked. Probably best to find other people who are using the same exchange you are and ask their experiences.

Yeah its extremely annoying that us users can't do anything about "corporate exchanges", but guess one has to live by "It is what it is" meme.

Anyways, thanks for your input on this, I am a teeny bit more aware of how to get things going from now, and a very interesting conversation overall, thanks mate. 

Really hope better decentralized exchanges come by, a decentralized version of binance would be really nice, but welp, one can dream.

[shield132]

So basically you are going:

Exchange -> Address A -> Address B -> Mixer -> Address C

It's difficult for anyone to say for sure, but as I said in my above comment, if an exchange will block your account if you mix your coins immediately after withdrawal, then I can't imagine that a single extra hop is going to make any difference to that, especially if you are moving all the coins in one without any change.

Apologize for confusing example.
What I want to say is following: Let's imagine I have dynamic addresses (all of them). Received money from an exchange to wallet A, then sent from wallet A to wallet B, from wallet b - to mixer. From mixer I sent it to my main wallet but what I do is that I split chips and sometimes send 0.3 btc, sometimes 0.7 btc. I collect bitcoins and send different stakes in order to get rid of any suspicion.
I received money on A and sent to B. I'll claim that wallet A is my primary address and I have an unpaid loan of a person that uses wallet B and it's not my job what he does with walelt B.

Also, another reason why that rule is dumb is that what if I want to send btc to my friend and he sends me mixer address? Is it my fault? How should I know whether address belongs mixer or not? Dumb rule!

Anti-money laundering politics is the worst politics ever, worse by the logic behind it. Rich people launder without any resistance It's very hilarious, it's a joke.