~OgNasty's self scratching

[nutildah]

...
 I find this kind of thread is a bit extorting to me as I do not want to see me on top of the self scratch list. As I was years ago.

Here's the thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand about the trust system, the difference between a trust rating and a trust list inclusion:

• If you trust somebody, then leave them a positive trust.
• If you trust their ability to use the trust system correctly, then include them in your trust list.

If mikeywith fits the second category in your opinion, then by all means, add him to your trust list!

What Og was doing was adding users to his trust list who haven't left trust ratings in years, left only a trust rating for Og, or never built a custom trust list... therefore, there's no discernible reason why anybody should add them to their trust list! Its quite obvious he was adding them on the basis that they left him a positive trust, and making them DT ups his own trust score, which is pretty cheeseball maneuvering.

Just because you trust somebody's ability to execute trades faithfully on-forum, it does not mean that they have good judgment when it comes to use the trust system. Someone could be highly trustworthy and a salt-of-the-earth person IRL, but they might have terrible judgment of others and leave crap trust ratings. It happens quite a bit actually.

[1714024842]

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[1714024842]

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[Vod]

So I have a problem with the attack being done to OgNasty as a similar one was done to me years ago in this section.

I find this kind of thread is a bit extorting to me as I do not want to see me on top of the self scratch list. As I was years ago.

1)  OgNasty has a history of this.   Half a dozen people are not saying something because he is doing something you described .   He did this simply because he wants me to shut up about his 6k btc loss.

2)  OgNasty has a history of playing the victim as well.  He brought your name into this thread - take the extortion up with him. 

[OgNasty]

Everyone I added I trust their ability to use the trust system. Just because you may not know them as well as I do from the information you have available to you nutilduh, doesn’t mean you can accurately speculate what my motivations are.

See how fast they are burying philipma1957’s comments? That’s what they do. They even use their previous harassment of me to say I have a history of doing this and since they harassed other users into removing their old trust inclusions (like philipma1957 described was done to him) they claim I’m the only person to add these users for my own benefit. It’s ridiculous.

[Vod]

Everyone I added I trust their ability to use the trust system.

achtung082 hasn't been online in over three months.   

[philipma1957]

~

mikeywith is already in DT so your inclusion doesn't "scratch" you in any way. This is in no way comparable to what OgNasty is doing with his +20.

I'm sorry to hear that you see that incident years ago this way. I thought I was doing you a favor letting you know that you have an accusation against you that you may have not seen.

It's unfortunate that it has come to this comparison. OgNasty is a habitual liar. He's been doing using the trust system to settle his petty personal disputes for years. Not something I would say about you and most other top-trusted users on this forum. Even having to spell that out is just feeding OgNasty's ego. Yes, he might not steal your money. No, he can't be trusted to be truthful and have sound judgement.

See this is why the internet sucks.  Touting a person would be a horse racing tip.  So if someone touts you about a thread he is tipping you off about a thread.

Thus my post was complimentary to you. Actually both you and Og stuck up for me in that thread.

 BTW that thread burns me to this day.

Wish I could find it. But that if I find it and read it I will just feel pissed off about a completely different person than anyone on this thread.



So While I picked Mikeywith and he was already on the list.

I HAVE MORE THAN 40 PEOPLE I pull off the list due to that thread.
I also requested to be removed from DT 1 list over that thread.

But Both Suchmoon and Og stuck up for me.

I hold grudges about that thread big time. but not against Suchmoon or Og when it comes to that thread.  Or for that matter any other thing.

Being here since 2012 Now has me in a funny position I like suchmoon and Og

Don't know much about Vod except he fights with Og

[Vod]

Don't know much about Vod except he fights with Og

I received all my trust despite not having traded on this forum.  

Anyway can buy/sell/escrow and build up such a list.   It's much more difficult to have people trust you based on something other than $$.

On topic:   If this latest round of abuse doesn't help Og, he'll do it again to more inactive users that left him trust one time.

[suchmoon]

See this is why the internet sucks.

That it does. So let me rephrase it: sorry that I misread your post. And that you got dragged into this.

I still stand by my opinion that the situations (yours and OgNasty's) are not even remotely comparable.

[nutildah]

Everyone I added I trust their ability to use the trust system.

For four of those, your decision is based on nothing discernible to the outside world (except for the fact that they left you a positive trust).

Just because you may not know them as well as I do from the information you have available to you nutilduh, doesn’t mean you can accurately speculate what my motivations are.

I don't need to know them to know they have no business being on DT.

[OgNasty]

I received all my trust despite not having traded on this forum.  

Another way of saying this is that you didn’t earn any of your trust.

I still stand by my opinion that the situations (yours and OgNasty's) are not even remotely comparable.

That’s because you are irrational and guided by petty emotions.

I don't need to know them to know they have no business being on DT.

This is such an ignorant statement, I find it hard to believe anyone could take your position on this issue seriously after reading it and discovering you are a moron.

[LoyceV]

mikeywith is trustworthy

I'm cherry-picking this part of your post, because I think this is the wrong reason to add someone to your Trust list.
I believe this is the correct use of the Trust system:

Don't confuse your Trust list with feedback
Trust feedback: leave feedback to people you trust or don't trust. Or leave neutral comments.
Trust list: a list of people who's judgement on others you trust (username) or don't trust (~username).

So if you think mikeywith is trustworthy, leave him positive feedback.
I can think of other reasons to include him in your Trust list, just not this one.

Update: I now see nutildah said the same on the next page. I'll leave this here anyway, because it's still a common mistake to confuse Trust list and Trust feedback (and it doesn't help that the forum calls everything "Trust").

I received all my trust despite not having traded on this forum. 

Another way of saying this is that you didn’t earn any of your trust.

Challenge accepted!
First, see this:

Trust summary. Read the description per Type carefully:
     

Now tell you which positive feedback is more deserved:
Mine from jeremypwr:

One of the most trustworthy people around.
Thanks for all you do.

Or montreal1's from OgNasty:

I successfully escrowed a trade between DebitMe & montreal1.

In my opinion, Vod has a point here:

Anyway can buy/sell/escrow and build up such a list.   It's much more difficult to have people trust you based on something other than $$.

[nutildah]

I don't need to know them to know they have no business being on DT.

This is such an ignorant statement, I find it hard to believe anyone could take your position on this issue seriously after reading it and discovering you are a moron.

OK, well, you've clearly run out of things to say, and I suspect you still don't understand the difference between a trust rating and a trust list. You've had however many years and never figured it out, perhaps you're simply not capable of understanding it.

All the more reason why you shouldn't be on DT.

[peloso]

Everyone I added I trust their ability to use the trust system.

achtung082 hasn't been online in over three months.  

you are fucking bastard
squall1066  hasn't been online in over 2 years
Tman hasn't been online in over 1 year
fuck your and your gang double standart


p.s to all condoms ( like as suchmoon, Loycev, owlcatz and other bastards ) that atacked Og
i ask you morons ! WHY TMAN IS STILL IN YOUR TRUS LIST?


hey fucking owlcats ! Lauda terminated and she in your fucking trust list  WHY?

[owlcatz]

WHY TMAN IS STILL IN YOUR TRUS LIST?

hey fucking owlcats ! Lauda terminated and she in your fucking trust list  WHY?

Because I value their feedback. Also, it's my trust list. So fuck off, Retardo.

[philipma1957]

mikeywith is trustworthy

I'm cherry-picking this part of your post, because I think this is the wrong reason to add someone to your Trust list.
I believe this is the correct use of the Trust system:

Don't confuse your Trust list with feedback
Trust feedback: leave feedback to people you trust or don't trust. Or leave neutral comments.
Trust list: a list of people who's judgement on others you trust (username) or don't trust (~username).

So if you think mikeywith is trustworthy, leave him positive feedback.
I can think of other reasons to include him in your Trust list, just not this one.

Update: I now see nutildah said the same on the next page. I'll leave this here anyway, because it's still a common mistake to confuse Trust list and Trust feedback (and it doesn't help that the forum calls everything "Trust").

I received all my trust despite not having traded on this forum.  

Another way of saying this is that you didn’t earn any of your trust.

Challenge accepted!
First, see this:

Trust summary. Read the description per Type carefully:
      

Now tell you which positive feedback is more deserved:
Mine from jeremypwr:

One of the most trustworthy people around.
Thanks for all you do.

Or montreal1's from OgNasty:

I successfully escrowed a trade between DebitMe & montreal1.

In my opinion, Vod has a point here:

Anyway can buy/sell/escrow and build up such a list.   It's much more difficult to have people trust you based on something other than $$.

You and I have a major disagreement over this.

My rules for trust as in a feedback and for putting people on my trust list do not match with yours.



Okay theymos is on my trust list for obvious political reasons.
I have been questioned
over buysolar
I have been questioned
over generalt

So here goes a new one


wndsnb is not on any of my lists I did a third deal involving him this week.
he has been here for 6 years. He now has some actual dt1 trust.
he has given good advice he has not abused the system

So I am going to put him on both my feedback trust and my actual trust list.

Which will be an example of self scratching. If he decides to give me a feedback.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=366233.

if you look at him he has been underrated for forum merits for years
he never earned a lot of merits because he did not seek them out.

To further continue my rant I want people to understand this particular attack on Ognasty was used on me.

So I will carefully show many people left off my lists due to the attack done to me.

I don't like this attack on anyone because I have seen it done to minerjones ,myself and Ognasty.

And I think it is a form of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Now if you look at what I did with wndsnb a contributing member to the forum if he gives me a feedback I look like a self scratch.

So you hinder me from rating people that I do business with.

Or you hinder me from doing business from people I previously rated.

It is wrong.

rant over.

not quite as

I repeat this affects any and all of us that buy sell or escrow on the forum.

[suchmoon]

That’s because you are irrational and guided by petty emotions.

LOL

IIRC in the old "self-scratching" accusation I was defending your right to include anyone you see fit - now that was an irrational belief that a DT1 member hand-picked by theymos would never do such a petty thing as boosting their own trust score or abusing the system for their personal disputes. Sadly you have proven me wrong in so many ways.

For the record, I still think that you should feel free to include anyone you see fit but you also need to accept the fact that you're no longer the invincible DT1 that you used to be. If you bring too much shit into DT you should get excluded like any other garbage like peloso. Regardless of how much money you haven't stolen.

[Laudanum]

WHY TMAN IS STILL IN YOUR TRUS LIST?

hey fucking owlcats ! Lauda terminated and she in your fucking trust list  WHY?

Because I value their feedback. Also, it's my trust list. So fuck off, Retardo.

This is bogus and was simply self scratching anyway. They were a tight group of back scratchers. All rushing to collude and trust abuse people to maintain some attempt of control. Merits swapped , trust includes , and who knows what alts they had or still have.

Owlskatz is clearly a broken minded fool who trusts the proven and self confessed trust abuse of proven scammers. Also part of those same scammers extortion racket as the link above demonstrates.

Want to debunk this ? Try it?

The entire merit and trust system top beneficiaries have their positions and pay cheques here on the basis of back scratching and reach arounds. It is undeniable. Self scratching well multi self scratching is called collusion. The entire DT system is built upon it from merit up.

Their arguments are hilarious. Think about it dummies dont just agree with what they are telling you DT is all about.
At a core level it is to help prevent people getting scammed dont lose sight of that fact. If not why have it at all?
The over complex mess can make you feel there is additional requirements. There is not.
Financially trustworthy people can make bad calls sure but anyone can pretend to have good judgement until they are entrenched enough to not have to any longer. That is the stage you are at right now sadly.

They are claiming of course you can have people in positions of trust that are proven scammers or proven willing scam facilitators for pay or proven extortionists? Why? Because you dont need to trust them only their judgement of others.

Lol that's why DT has ended up going from hand picked elder members with large and valuable reputations that could be removed by theymos if there was evidence of serious wrongdoing to a pack of scammers and greedy nobody newbies entrenching themselves in DT who can not be removed even with proof of scamming or serious financially motivated wrong doing because they collude to keep each other there. Their core directive is collude or be removed.

The entire thing is a fucking joke. It removed all accountability of DT current crooks. Well they are accountable to themselves and their colluding crooked pals only.

The design is completely moronic it forces collusion to remain in DT.

This you dont need to trust people just their opinions of others is the dumbest shit I've heard here yet.

OG and PMA57 being told who they can trust and put on their trust lists by proven scammers and scammer protecting newbies.
Lol well you 2 fools brought this on yourselves. It was clear this new bunch of greedy self serving scum dont want anyone on DT that can challenge their hold on chipmixer and other rev streams and milking the forum dry.

But too weak to say " hey these people are dirty greedy scum, scamming willing to facilitate scammers for pay, scamming in their auctions, extorting members and trust abusing any that stood up to them and told the truth.

Soon you will be doing exactly as they tell you or whoops put off DT then later you'll have some red tags.

The design is broken only an idiot would implement such a design on an anonymous forum where anyone can spin up alts and power them up with merits and inclusions.

DT must be

1. Elder members with valuable legacy
2. Trading history to examine.
3. Removed at once if any instance of scamming or financial wrongdoing is located at all.

They are claiming back scratching motivation because they SAY it is not enough that you trust them financially.
Yes you can monitor their feedback and later remove.
I would rather do that than add someone who is a scammer or unknown who I agree with some of his current feedback.
You will still have to monitor their actions anyway so where is the problem.
I will add someone who has been trustworthy financially and watch them any day over some that have shown they are financially untrustworthy but maybe pretending to have good judgement of others until it effects them personally. This can be gamed and has been until the critical mass of colluding scum is fully entrenched.

The entire argument they are presenting is bogus and requires constant monitoring anyway.

It is simply because they want to be able to have scamming scum on DT like lauda and tman and say okay well I cant debunk your evidence they both scammed, cant debunk the evidence they extorted but oh look they can pretend to be fair and honest when it does of effect them and they have great judgement they think we should be on DT lol.

It's strange on such a nerd based forum that there are 99.99% morons that can't field their own arguments or debunk bogus claims that pretend they are optimal that are clearly moronic.

Start picking specific examples that is their weakness they try to talk generally and bamboozle you. Then all agree with each other as if weight of numbers of agreeing but clearly wrong idios makes it correct lol.

The core issue with this forum is the " non scammers" and okay folks are either very weak or very stupid or both.
They are not up for a real fight with real scammers who will fight tooth and nail to ensure they get to keep milking the forum.

[philipma1957]

WHY TMAN IS STILL IN YOUR TRUS LIST?

hey fucking owlcats ! Lauda terminated and she in your fucking trust list  WHY?

Because I value their feedback. Also, it's my trust list. So fuck off, Retardo.

This is bogus and was simply self scratching anyway. They were a tight group of back scratchers. All rushing to collude and trust abuse people to maintain some attempt of control. Merits swapped and who knows what alts they had or still have.

Owlskatz is clearly a broken minded fool who trusts the proven and self confessed trust abuse of proven scammers. Also part of those same scammers extortion racket as the link above demonstrates.

Want to debunk this ? Try it?

The entire merit and trust system top beneficiaries have their positions and pay cheques here on the basis of back scratching and reach arounds. It is undeniable. Self scratching well multi self scratching is called collusion. The entire DT system is built upon it from merit up.

Their arguments are hilarious. Think about it dummies dont just agree with what they are telling you DT is all about.
At a core level it is to help prevent people getting scammed dont lose sight of that fact. If not why have it at all?
The over complex mess can make you feel there is additional requirements. There is not.
Financially trustworthy people can make bad calls sure but anyone can pretend to have good judgement until they are entrenched enough to not have to any longer. That is the stage you are at right now sadly.

They are claiming of course you can have people in positions of trust that are proven scammers or proven willing scam facilitators for pay or proven extortionists? Why? Because you dont need to trust them only their judgement of others.

Lol that's why DT has ended up going from hand picked elder members with large and valuable reputations that could be removed by theymos if there was evidence of serious wrongdoing to a pack of scammers and greedy nobody newbies entrenching themselves in DT who can not be removed even with proof of scamming or serious financially motivated wrong doing because they collude to keep each other there. Their core directive is collude or be removed.

The entire thing is a fucking joke. It removed all accountability of DT current crooks. Well they are accountable to themselves and their colluding crooked pals only.

The design is completely moronic it forces collusion to remain in DT.

This you dont need to trust people just their opinions of others is the dumbest shit I've heard here yet.

OG and PMA57 being told who they can trust and put on their trust lists by proven scammers and scammer protecting newbies.
Lol well you 2 fools brought this on yourselves. It was clear this new bunch of greedy self serving scum dont want anyone on DT that can challenge their hold on chipmixer and other rev streams and milking the forum dry.

But too weak to say " hey these people are dirty greedy scum, scamming willing to facilitate scammers for pay, scamming in their auctions, extorting members and trust abusing any that stood up to them and told the truth.

Soon you will be doing exactly as they tell you or whoops put of DT then later you'll have some red tags.

The design is broken only an idiot would implement such a design on an anonymous forum where anyone can spin up alts and power them up with merits and inclusions.

DT must be

1. Elder members with valuable legacy
2. Trading history to examine.
3. Removed at once if any instance of scamming or financial wrongdoing is located at all.

They are claiming back scratching motivation because they SAY it is not enough that you trust them financially.
Yes you can monitor their feedback and later remove.
I would rather do that than add someone who is a scammer or unknown who I agree with some of his current feedback.
You will still have to monitor their actions anyway so where is the problem.
I will add someone who has been trustworthy financially and watch them any day over some that have shown they are financially untrustworthy but maybe pretending to have good judgement of others until it effects them personally. This can be gamed and has been until the critical mass of colluding scum is fully entrenched.

The entire argument they are presenting is bogus and requires constant monitoring anyway.

It is simply because they want to be able to have scamming scum on DT like lauda and tman and say okay well I cant debunk your evidence they both scammed, cant debunk the evidence they extorted but oh look they can pretend to be fair and honest when it does of effect them and they have great judgement they think we should be on DT lol.

It's strange on such a nerd based forum that there are 99.99% morons that can't field their own arguments or debunk bogus claims that pretend they are optimal that are clearly moronic.

Start picking specific examples that is their weakness they try to talk generally and bamboozle you. Then all agree with each other as if weight of numbers of agreeing but clearly wrong idios makes it correct lol.

Actually this is a pretty good post. I see you have a list of enemies by reading your feedbacks.

This is why I did not want to get involved in much of this. If you look at the thread,
I see it as another way to attack people that actually do some business on bitcointalk.

...
 I find this kind of thread is a bit extorting to me as I do not want to see me on top of the self scratch list. As I was years ago.

Here's the thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand about the trust system, the difference between a trust rating and a trust list inclusion:

• If you trust somebody, then leave them a positive trust.
• If you trust their ability to use the trust system correctly, then include them in your trust list.

If mikeywith fits the second category in your opinion, then by all means, add him to your trust list!

What Og was doing was adding users to his trust list who haven't left trust ratings in years, left only a trust rating for Og, or never built a custom trust list... therefore, there's no discernible reason why anybody should add them to their trust list! Its quite obvious he was adding them on the basis that they left him a positive trust, and making them DT ups his own trust score, which is pretty cheeseball maneuvering.

Just because you trust somebody's ability to execute trades faithfully on-forum, it does not mean that they have good judgment when it comes to use the trust system. Someone could be highly trustworthy and a salt-of-the-earth person IRL, but they might have terrible judgment of others and leave crap trust ratings. It happens quite a bit actually.

I understand how it works.  The problem is when someone does both things and I add them to my trust list and my feedback I get listed as a self scratcher.

I am defending my position to list a person on both lists if they deserve it. NOT Og not minerjones. or my self  but the right to do a double listing of deserving people on my lists or anyone else's right to do the same.

this pretty much covers my position. about self scratch and why it is a loaded way to attack a person.

BTW lets see if wndsnb  whom I added to my trust list and my feedback list (today) decides to give me a positive feedback which would raise me so far he has not. But if he does I self scratched.

I will be looking at more to add to my trust list basically to protest these self scratch attacks.


I finally found one to raise my 81 to a 83

HerbPean

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=332031

and he is pretty good member who is trustable.

I also sent him a few merit simply because I don't like what was done in this thread.

This thread weakens the ability to sell buy and escrow on bitcointalk if you want to give out trust listings and feedbacks.

END OF STORY IT IS NOT ABOUT og or me or minerjones. 

It is about any using the marketplace sections on the forum.

[LoyceV]

You and I have a major disagreement over this.

My rules for trust as in a feedback and for putting people on my trust list do not match with yours.

If that's intentional, I won't stop you of course But I do think the Trust system functions best if most people use it the way it's intended.

Admin said this:

LoyceV's guide seems reasonable.

And this:

Trust lists

 - If you find someone who has sent accurate trust actions and has no inaccurate/inappropriate trust actions, add them to your trust list. Inclusion in trust lists is a more a mark of useful contributions than your trust in them, though at least a little trust is necessary.
 - If you think that someone is not using the trust system appropriately, or if you disagree with some of their subjective determinations, exclude them from your trust list. If bad outcomes happen in DT, this is partly the fault/responsibility of: the bad actors themselves; DT1 who include the bad-actors; DT1 who don't exclude the bad-actors; DT1 who include or don't exclude failing DT1; anyone else who includes failing DT1. While it's best to spend some time trying to fix things at the lower levels before escalating it, it's reasonable to complain to any of those people, as I did regarding Lauda that one time, for example. (Of course, the system itself is probably also imperfect, and that's on me.)

A very simple solution for most of the "self-scratching" drama would be to require at least 2 inclusions from DT1 to be on DT2. That would mean nobody has to decide on their own who gets to be DT2, and nobody can increase their own Trust ratings without at least someone else agreeing.

[Vod]

I received all my trust despite not having traded on this forum.  

Another way of saying this is that you didn’t earn any of your trust.

Community disagrees with you.  You trust people when you had nothing to risk, simply so they trust you back.  My trust is earned. 

Can you try to help peloso understand that adding TMAN to my trust list months before he left is not the same as you adding an account months after it left?

[suchmoon]

So you hinder me from rating people that I do business with.

Or you hinder me from doing business from people I previously rated.

There seems to be some misunderstanding or confusion here.

Rating (sending feedback to) people who are unlikely to scam (positive) or high-risk (negative) is the primary use of the trust system and directly related to doing business here. Nothing that LoyceV said hinders that.

Including or excluding users in your trust list is different. You need to weigh whether the person's use of the trust system will have value to other users (at least to you and those who include you, or to the default trust system if you're in DT1). This isn't directly related to business, other than perhaps asking yourself "would this person's sent trust ratings and trust inclusions/exclusions be useful or harmful to other users trying to do business here".

It literally says so at the top of your trust list (emphasis mine): "List the users who you trust to have good trust ratings and good trust lists, one user per line. Prefix a user's name with a tilde (~) if you want to exclude them from your trust network."

Seems quite straightforward. Don't overcomplicate it.