New Nocoiner narrative, "Bitcoin is not scarce".

[XZERO1]

Nocoiners = Those who lost the opportunity to buy Bitcoin when it was cheap and now instead of buying it at a higher price and accept that, they prefer to just trash it and constantly trying to persuade other people that it has no future.

There are 2,100,000,000,000,000 satoshis in 21Million Bitcoins, and we have 7.6 billion people in the world, and that means every person can have 276,315 satoshis if we divide them equally between people, so that means none of these arguments make any sense considering people can own satoshis which is the smallest unit of Bitcoin.

[avikz]

Because according to her, Bitcoin's divisbility up to 8 decimal places will make Bitcoin "not scarce". We have also seen trolls in the forum say it. Tell these trolls that a whole pizza, divided to 8 slices of that same pizza, then further divided to 16 slices, is still that same whole pizza.

Lol! These are like "Modi Bhakts" in India! They understand that they are wrong but still hold onto their ground of fake beliefs! No matter how wrong things have gone, they will still take the name of Modi! So these type of breeds are not new in the market!

But I feel her pain! When your belief doesn't doesn't go as per your expectation and you realize that you have lost a massive opportunity due to these fake beliefs, it really hurts inside you and you find a ground vomit the anger!

[KonstantinosM]

The pizza analogy is so dumb.

You cut a pizza in 1000 pieces, you no longer have pizza. You have crumbs.

When you cut something in half you don't have twice the amount. You don't have half the amount either. You have exactly the same amount.


Most anything can be divided. Your room can be divided into two, and you can put two people in that space, it can be infinitely divided and we can stick 100 people in your room. Your room will now heat up because of all the human bodies, and smell of breath and become unsafe and you won't be happy anymore.


Gold could be divided into atoms. Here is avogadros number: 6.0221409^23 so a mole of gold (197 grams) can be divided into 169,331,290,000,000,000,000 atoms of gold.
That's 169 quntillions for only 197 grams of gold.

Does that mean that gold is not scarce anymore? Since we all could have quadrillions of atoms of it (out of a single molde?

Since gold still has a value, and a high one at that the new nocoiner narrative is false.


Going back to food. Just because you could theoretically cut a pizza into 7 billion pieces it doesn't mean that you could feed the entire world on 1 pizza.

As for the loaves and fishes Bible nonsense, it's supposed to be a miracle, like harry potter waved his dick around and multiplied the bread and fish.

[arcmetal]

Going back to food. Just because you could theoretically cut a pizza into 7 billion pieces it doesn't mean that you could feed the entire world on 1 pizza.

But of course "frances coppola" believes that you can. 

The funny part is that bitcoin can run on just one bitcoin.  If all the coins were lost except for one, the whole network would function just fine, just as it does today.  But that one coin would be worth about $500 billion.

It is too bad that some can't understand these things.  Or, they do understand and just prefer to spread fud.

[mariah.sadio]

We will never agitate every nocoiner to join crypto space. Its already easier to just ignore them

[gmaxwell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtLEWVu815o

[BrewMaster]

The pizza analogy is so dumb.

it is dumb because it is an answer to a dumb statement. it is not supposed to be wise/correct.
the dumb statement is that if you split 1 whole bitcoin into satoshis bitcoin supply is no longer scarce. among the bullshit tweets there were some points towards the shitcoin forks too which is yet another dumb statement.

my observation is that she is just another hypocrite like the rest of them that no one would be surprised when they learn in near future that she has been buying bitcoin.

[pixie85]

In Short, She is correct and as usual , you are stupid.  

Stop trolling please.

the 21mill limit becomes meaningless if more then 21m people can have some
subdivisions is another form of inflation.

But right now there's more than 21 million bitcoin users and all of them "have some"  

Technically if that woman and you are right then someone who has 1 mBTC doesn't have bitcoin. Try explaining it to all those people who thought they were buying bitcoin no regardless of how much fiat they spent.

[franky1]

the 21mill limit becomes meaningless if more then 21m people can have some
subdivisions is another form of inflation.

It appears that you have that backwards.  21 million units is a hard limit, therefore, there is no inflation if you can't add more units.

If more than 21 million people try to buy bitcoins, not all will have one bitcoin.  So the limit becomes more important, not less important, if more people than 21 million try to have it.

in investments share dilutions is a form of inflating companies holdings

Again, you have what bitcoin is doing backwards.  In share dilutions, more shares are created. For example, if 100 shares exist today, but tomorrow they add 50 more shares, then the total number of shares are diluted to 150.

No one is adding more bitcoins than the current final count of 21 million.

in share dilutions more SHARES are created without expanding the company physically.
having more shares(units) is meaning there are more shares(units) to share with people
i know you and windfury are stuck with the silly 'bucket' measure of a btc. but the sharable units the amount of units able to be shared would increase if the divisions went from 8 to 12.

if a company only had 4 shares. then those 4 people have power and there would be real demand to try changing out those 4 people. however if there are 4000 shares. then its not so scarce. not so much demand. and those holding have less importance.

something is not scarce if everyone can have it.

in practical maths/economics there is no physical/logical difference between having 2,100,000,000,000,000 sharable units with a basket term set at every 100000000000 units or having 21billion basket terms with only 100000000 units. the only difference becomes in conceptual language of buzzwords

scarcity is about how sharable something is

bread in your kitchen pantry is not scarce because its only one loaf and you have a family of 4. bread is widely available to the family because its sliced bread

i understand a certain few people are deeply stuck in the greyscale fangirl club and want bitcoin to subdivide more. but atleast be honest about it.
the game windfury is playing (whether he realises it or not) is not that bitcoin at its continual 8 decimal division is less scarce than a few years ago. but instead to try convincing people that it will still be scarce with 1000x more ability to be shared between people in the future

im kind of doubting windfury has had any investment experience or economic experience.

[20kevin20]

~

Purchasing a pizza and cutting it in half does not give you double pizzas. It only splits it into two pieces, but put together it's still the same.

Say some brand new tech is developed and a new scientific discovery is made, which makes us able to grain a 1oz coin of gold into pieces as small as the millionth part of a picogram. Does this remove gold's scarcity? It doesn't. Just because you can split it into more pieces does not multiply its existent supply.

I personally cannot compare the physical vs virtual worlds because both of them are constantly changing and in both of them we make new discoveries. Even the millionth of a picogram could probably be split into millions/billions/trillions of other pieces, it's just that we have not discovered a way to do so yet.

From Wikipedia: "Scarcity as an economic concept ... refers to the basic fact of life that there exists only a finite amount of human and nonhuman resources.."

If you can divide Bitcoin into more units than you could've done before, it does not make it less limited. It does not make it easier to gather an entire BTC. If BTC had 16 instead of 8 zeros after the decimal, it would be just as hard to get 1 satoshi as it is today.

[arcmetal]

the 21mill limit becomes meaningless if more then 21m people can have some
subdivisions is another form of inflation.

It appears that you have that backwards.  21 million units is a hard limit, therefore, there is no inflation if you can't add more units.

If more than 21 million people try to buy bitcoins, not all will have one bitcoin.  So the limit becomes more important, not less important, if more people than 21 million try to have it.

in investments share dilutions is a form of inflating companies holdings

Again, you have what bitcoin is doing backwards.  In share dilutions, more shares are created. For example, if 100 shares exist today, but tomorrow they add 50 more shares, then the total number of shares are diluted to 150.

No one is adding more bitcoins than the current final count of 21 million.

in share dilutions more SHARES are created without expanding the company physically.
having more shares(units) is meaning there are more shares(units) to share with people
i know you and windfury are stuck with the silly 'bucket' measure of a btc. but the sharable units the amount of units able to be shared would increase if the divisions went from 8 to 12.

if a company only had 4 shares. then those 4 people have power and there would be real demand to try changing out those 4 people. however if there are 4000 shares. then its not so scarce. not so much demand. and those holding have less importance.

something is not scarce if everyone can have it.

in practical maths/economics there is no physical/logical difference between having 2,100,000,000,000,000 sharable units with a basket term set at every 100000000000 units or having 21billion basket terms with only 100000000 units. the only difference becomes in conceptual language of buzzwords

scarcity is about how sharable something is

bread in your kitchen pantry is not scarce because its only one loaf and you have a family of 4. bread is widely available to the family because its sliced bread

i understand a certain few people are deeply stuck in the greyscale fangirl club and want bitcoin to subdivide more. but atleast be honest about it.
the game windfury is playing (whether he realises it or not) is not that bitcoin at its continual 8 decimal division is less scarce than a few years ago. but instead to try convincing people that it will still be scarce with 1000x more ability to be shared between people in the future

im kind of doubting windfury has had any investment experience or economic experience.

It would seem that your understanding of logic, math and physics does not match up with reality.  But if this is the way that a typical financial type understands the basics, then this explains a lot for me.

See, back in around 2011 when I discovered bitcoin, I had wondered why the financial types had such a hard time with it.  The programmers loved the idea of bitcoin, they understood it, but for some reason the financial people would write many articles deriding it.  And your explanation is helpful in sort of finally explaining why they hated bitcoin so much.

It would seem that since bitcoin is not "divisible", "expandable", "inflatable", or otherwise what we are really talking about is: "exploitable", like financial derivatives, then the financial types would have no way to fool their investors with their flawed explanations of price, value, hand-waving machinations, etc.

[CarnagexD]

I've seen people argue over and over again about how she is right since "bitcoin can be bought without buying the whole coin's value anyway". Which is totally stupid and outrageous. Just because you can buy a portion of it does not mean it's not scarce or anything.

The 21 Million supply's scarcity is alleviated by utility tokens like Satoshis. But on their own, they don't hold any value at all.

~

Purchasing a pizza and cutting it in half does not give you double pizzas. It only splits it into two pieces, but put together it's still the same.

Say some brand new tech is developed and a new scientific discovery is made, which makes us able to grain a 1oz coin of gold into pieces as small as the millionth part of a picogram. Does this remove gold's scarcity? It doesn't. Just because you can split it into more pieces does not multiply its existent supply.

I personally cannot compare the physical vs virtual worlds because both of them are constantly changing and in both of them we make new discoveries. Even the millionth of a picogram could probably be split into millions/billions/trillions of other pieces, it's just that we have not discovered a way to do so yet.

From Wikipedia: "Scarcity as an economic concept ... refers to the basic fact of life that there exists only a finite amount of human and nonhuman resources.."

If you can divide Bitcoin into more units than you could've done before, it does not make it less limited. It does not make it easier to gather an entire BTC. If BTC had 16 instead of 8 zeros after the decimal, it would be just as hard to get 1 satoshi as it is today.

Exactly what my point is. Divvying something up does not make it any less scarce, you just divided it up into more pieces with less value than what they had to begin with.

[franky1]

It would seem that your understanding of logic, math and physics does not match up with reality.  But if this is the way that a typical financial type understands the basics, then this explains a lot for me.

See, back in around 2011 when I discovered bitcoin, I had wondered why the financial types had such a hard time with it.  The programmers loved the idea of bitcoin, they understood it, but for some reason the financial people would write many articles deriding it.  And your explanation is helpful in sort of finally explaining why they hated bitcoin so much.

It would seem that since bitcoin is not "divisible", "expandable", "inflatable", or otherwise what we are really talking about is: "exploitable", like financial derivatives, then the financial types would have no way to fool their investors with their flawed explanations of price, value, hand-waving machinations, etc.

well for logic. you just have to look for code
this is where the unit of measure is actualy in satoshi first. and then the 'coin' is created by using math to have then a basket term.

maybe if in the 9 years you were in bitcoin you looked at the code logic. as i have done
static const CAmount COIN = 100000000;
static const CAmount MAX_MONEY = 21000000 * COIN;

its not just have coin and then have max limit of 21m... and then later decide to divide it down.

it starts with 100000000 and then gives that measure a basket term of 'coin' and then say there can only be 21m COIN

what you will realise in code logic is that everything is measured in satoshi units. not decimals of btc.
the basket term of 'btc' is just as unimportant to code as a 'ubit' is
the math and logic of bitcoin code uses the units of measure of satoshi's

it is human/user interface that then do the illogic of talking about it in basket terms

but if you think its ok to change the simple math of:
static const CAmount COIN = 100000000;
static const CAmount MAX_MONEY = 21000000 * COIN;
to
static const CAmount COIN = 1000000000000;
static const CAmount MAX_MONEY = 21000000 * COIN;

then nothing is different when it comes to counting the units of measure if you done
static const CAmount COIN = 100000000;
static const CAmount MAX_MONEY = 210000000000 * COIN;

as its the same thing at code logic level

the amount of sharable units at code logic would be the same both ways if editing math of coin or maxmoney.. but offering people 1000x more both ways compared to original code

i know you lot are stuck in the human scope of basket terms.. like 'btc' or 'gold bars'
thinking there can only be ~15mill gold bars (190,000tonne) of gold(at 12.4kg bar baskets)
so your blindly thinking only 15million people can own gold. and thus making gold scarce

but reality is gold is not scarce. its in your device your using to view this forum. you have gold. and your not one of the limited 15m you previously thought could only have gold

here is the thing. gld junkies worked this out centuries ago. which is why they gave up the concept of measuring gold in the foolish basket term of bars.
the actual amount of gold is measured in math of the underlying sub unit (grams>kg>tonne)

when you learn a gold bar held in national reserves is only 12.4kg purely from human decision of random math of choosing 12.4 instead of say 15kg. and not to do with scarcity or availability of the number of grams in the world. you soon start to want to count gold in ounces/grams because having a gold bar of 12.4kg means nothing when they can change it to being 0.124kg, 15kg if they chose to
cores future plan is to change the basket term of 'btc' to have more sharable units

emphasis on SHARABLE as thats the point of scarcity

[arcmetal]

well for logic. you just have to look for code
this is where the unit of measure is actualy in satoshi first. and then the 'coin' is created by using math to have then a basket term.

maybe if in the 9 years you were in bitcoin you looked at the code logic. as i have done
static const CAmount COIN = 100000000;
static const CAmount MAX_MONEY = 21000000 * COIN;

One shouldn't assume things of someone they do not know.  How do you know that I am not one of those that has done more than just "look" at the code.

its not just have coin and then have max limit of 21m... and then later decide to divide it down.

it starts with 100000000 and then gives that measure a basket term of 'coin' and then say there can only be 21m COIN

what you will realise in code logic is that everything is measured in satoshi units. not decimals of btc.
the basket term of 'btc' is just as unimportant to code as a 'ubit' is
the math and logic of bitcoin code uses the units of measure of satoshi's

it is human/user interface that then do the illogic of talking about it in basket terms

but if you think its ok to change the simple math of:
static const CAmount COIN = 100000000;
static const CAmount MAX_MONEY = 21000000 * COIN;
to
static const CAmount COIN = 1000000000000;
static const CAmount MAX_MONEY = 21000000 * COIN;

then nothing is different when it comes to counting the units of measure if you done
static const CAmount COIN = 100000000;
static const CAmount MAX_MONEY = 210000000000 * COIN;

as its the same thing at code logic level

the amount of sharable units at code logic would be the same both ways if editing math of coin or maxmoney.. but offering people 1000x more both ways compared to original code

I think if you had been one of my programmers I might have made sure you ended up working on strictly non-essentials.

 Ill-logic produces ill-programs, and useless data.

i know you lot are stuck in the human scope of basket terms.. like 'btc' or 'gold bars'
thinking there can only be ~15mill gold bars (190,000tonne) of gold(at 12.4kg bar baskets)
so your blindly thinking only 15million people can own gold. and thus making gold scarce

but reality is gold is not scarce. its in your device your using to view this forum. you have gold. and your not one of the limited 15m you previously thought could only have gold

here is the thing. gld junkies worked this out centuries ago. which is why they gave up the concept of measuring gold in the foolish basket term of bars.
the actual amount of gold is measured in math of the underlying sub unit (grams>kg>tonne)

when you learn a gold bar held in national reserves is only 12.4kg purely from human decision of random math of choosing 12.4 instead of say 15kg. and not to do with scarcity or availability of the number of grams in the world. you soon start to want to count gold in ounces/grams because having a gold bar of 12.4kg means nothing when they can change it to being 0.124kg, 15kg if they chose to
cores future plan is to change the basket term of 'btc' to have more sharable units

emphasis on SHARABLE as thats the point of scarcity

At this point I am just going to give up on explaining more, and just resign to the fact that you are one of those that thinks that "splitting up a single pizza into two halves gives you two pizzas".  Up to this point in time I would not have believed that anyone could have a thought process that would have allowed such nonsense, but here we are in this new world of "alternative facts".

Just beware that thinking in such terms for too long can lead to ruin, if you aren't lucky.  Either your poorly written program creates havoc, or maybe one day thinking that your 10 in your pocket was really 100 and you try paying the loan shark that 100 by handing him a ten.

[arcmetal]

I've seen people argue over and over again about how she is right since "bitcoin can be bought without buying the whole coin's value anyway". Which is totally stupid and outrageous. Just because you can buy a portion of it does not mean it's not scarce or anything.

The 21 Million supply's scarcity is alleviated by utility tokens like Satoshis. But on their own, they don't hold any value at all.

~

Purchasing a pizza and cutting it in half does not give you double pizzas. It only splits it into two pieces, but put together it's still the same.

Say some brand new tech is developed and a new scientific discovery is made, which makes us able to grain a 1oz coin of gold into pieces as small as the millionth part of a picogram. Does this remove gold's scarcity? It doesn't. Just because you can split it into more pieces does not multiply its existent supply.

I personally cannot compare the physical vs virtual worlds because both of them are constantly changing and in both of them we make new discoveries. Even the millionth of a picogram could probably be split into millions/billions/trillions of other pieces, it's just that we have not discovered a way to do so yet.

From Wikipedia: "Scarcity as an economic concept ... refers to the basic fact of life that there exists only a finite amount of human and nonhuman resources.."

If you can divide Bitcoin into more units than you could've done before, it does not make it less limited. It does not make it easier to gather an entire BTC. If BTC had 16 instead of 8 zeros after the decimal, it would be just as hard to get 1 satoshi as it is today.

Exactly what my point is. Divvying something up does not make it any less scarce, you just divided it up into more pieces with less value than what they had to begin with.

Why is this simple concept so difficult for some to comprehend ?

Somewhere out there someone is teaching some really poor logic, or some lack the capacity to understand.

[Khaos77]

Divide by 10000000000000000.

In the Physical World , you can't keep dividing , as the item loses the characteristics it originally had.
Just try and survive on eating .00000001 of a pizza every meal.

There are no such limits in the virtual realm.
1 bitcoin = 1.00000000
instead of having a single bitcoin, you have 100000000 units.
Meaning your supposed
21000000 bitcoins total supply is really 2100000000000000 units ie: 2.1 Quadrillion Units
And since their is no limiting factor to virtual world division, going to the 12th or 16th place or higher is endless supply.
*Note:LN already makes up a 12 place.*

In Short, She is correct and as usual , you are stupid.  

Wo, your logic is totally twisted, and you don't seem to have a basic understanding of fractions.  Understanding fractions is something that is usually learned in elementary school.  I'd suggest asking a ten year old for a thorough explanation of how fractions work.  Start with asking what happens when you cut something in half.

We here don't have time to teach such basic skills.

On the bright side, I think you've won the prize for the dumbest comment in this entire forum.  (and I've seen my share of dumb comments in this forum, but this one takes the cake)  woo hoo.

Oh wait, you're joking.  Never mind.

Sorry , if you can't understand, it is because you are also stupid.  (Not Joking.)  

FYI:
Will you claim a satoshi is not bitcoin.
At the 8th decimal point to the right of zero ,
if there are 21 million bitcoins, then there are 2.1 Quadrillion Satoshis .
There are very few people that can afford to buy 100000000 Satoshis to own 1 bitcoin.
Satoshi is the smallest usable portion of bitcoin in the current program code.
That is nothing more than a piece of code easily changed to add more decimals to the right.
And as long as they say 21 million limit to the left, stupid people don't understand the overall supply is being increased.
They say look at the left and you say ok, when they overly inflate supply on the right.
Reason no one cares how many bitcoins get lost , is they will always inflate to the right of which their is no real limit except program code which is easily changed. LN already allows 12 places to the right of the decimal instead of the original 8.

[Pearls Before Swine]

I fully understand bitcoin's divisibility, but when you've got big companies and whales with a ton of money buying bitcoin all at once (which is what we're seeing now), and given that bitcoin's supply is fixed, scarcity could indeed become a 'problem'.  OTOH that problem might lead to bitcoin being worth a whole heck of a lot more than it is now, and I'm thinking people who predicted it would hit $1mil+ might not have been so crazy after all.

But it's scarcity on the open market that I'm talking about, and that will all depend on whether holders like Grayscale and others don't sell.  If they do, then all bets are off.

[cr1776]

...
Because according to her, Bitcoin's divisbility up to 8 decimal places will make Bitcoin "not scarce". We have also seen trolls in the forum say it. Tell these trolls that a whole pizza, divided to 8 slices of that same pizza, then further divided to 16 slices, is still that same whole pizza.

My initial thought is that she is an idiot who doesn't understand math.  I think in reality, she is carrying water for the fiat loving, anti-freedom political class who sees bitcoin eating away at her power.

Of course, since she won't define her terms precisely, she can make claims with a bunch of hand waving in order for her to try and trick people.

What exactly does she mean by "scarce"?
1 - scarce meaning that only so much of it is available.
2 - scarce meaning that only so many people can own a whole bitcoin, e.g. only so many people can own 100 million Satoshis.  
3 - scarce meaning that only so many people can own ANY quantity of bitcoin, e.g. how many people could own 1 satoshi (or even less with lightning).

If you say #3 is what she's talking about, then she's right that it isn't scarce because everyone can have *some*. Normal, rational, reasonable people would think of #1 and #2 were what one would think about when they say "scarce" but she is relying on people to think she knows more than she does and accept her stupidity as enlightenment.

Reminiscent of someone not understanding Zeno's Paradox.

[arcmetal]

...
Because according to her, Bitcoin's divisbility up to 8 decimal places will make Bitcoin "not scarce". We have also seen trolls in the forum say it. Tell these trolls that a whole pizza, divided to 8 slices of that same pizza, then further divided to 16 slices, is still that same whole pizza.

My initial thought is that she is an idiot who doesn't understand math.  I think in reality, she is carrying water for the fiat loving, anti-freedom political class who sees bitcoin eating away at her power.

Of course, since she won't define her terms precisely, she can make claims with a bunch of hand waving in order for her to try and trick people.

What exactly does she mean by "scarce"?
1 - scarce meaning that only so much of it is available.
2 - scarce meaning that only so many people can own a whole bitcoin, e.g. only so many people can own 100 million Satoshis.  
3 - scarce meaning that only so many people can own ANY quantity of bitcoin, e.g. how many people could own 1 satoshi (or even less with lightning).

If you say #3 is what she's talking about, then she's right that it isn't scarce because everyone can have *some*. Normal, rational, reasonable people would think of #1 and #2 were what one would think about when they say "scarce" but she is relying on people to think she knows more than she does and accept her stupidity as enlightenment.

Reminiscent of someone not understanding Zeno's Paradox.

cr1776, that is an excellent response.  You state a tactic so many use to fool many more.

This lays a trap that the fooled can't get out of, given Mark Twain's quote:

“It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled.”

I'd give you merit, but I'm all out.

[Wind_FURY]

Because according to her, Bitcoin's divisbility up to 8 decimal places will make Bitcoin "not scarce". We have also seen trolls in the forum say it. Tell these trolls that a whole pizza, divided to 8 slices of that same pizza, then further divided to 16 slices, is still that same whole pizza.

It gets worse ...

"math is hard"
- https://twitter.com/_benkaufman/status/1343839142287990784



 

...

"Gonna be hard to find a dumber tweet on Crypto Twitter Today"
- https://twitter.com/BitcoinMemeHub/status/1344046965416464390



...

Q. Now write the expression for the volume of a thick crust pizza with height "a" and radius "z".

 

I'm out of merits. Give the man the merit he deserves!

I can't wait for her to post her "piece", and laugh. The nocoiners are desperate for a narrative that it makes them not care to destroy their own reputation, and look stupid.

Next nocoiner/troll narrative, "Invest in Bitcoin Cash, it's Bitcoin, but cheaper".