Make this forum a better place - part 3

[shield132]

We implemented merit system back in January 24, 2018. Personally, I think that merit played an important role in partly improving the posts quality but seems it’s still not enough.
Recently, there are a lot of complains regarding to low post quality, more newbie restrictions, etc.

Since theymos doesn’t want to apply more restrictions on newbies (and that’s logical) and wants to keep this forum newbie-friendly, I came up with an idea to implement “Reactions on posts”.

We can have:
1.   Like (good post)
2.   Dislike (bad post)
3.   Haha (not spammy but funny post) or any other idea for neutral comment.

Reactions on comments

The positive side of this implementation can be that bitcointalk members will be able to react on each-others posts. In overall, we will create statistics of high quality and low quality posters that will help us to identify spammers. When there are a lot of dislikes on posts, it will automatically alarm the moderator to remove the comment.

Feedbacks on profile

Users will be able to leave positive and negative feedback regarding to post quality (i.e. likes and dislikes) on user’s profile. How will it work? Well, it will help users to rank up along with activity and merit. Of course, requirements to rank up will be much lower compared to number of mertis and activity. This scheme is similar of invite system but very different, you are able to register without invite but you have to gain recommendation in order to rank up. What will be the advantage of this action? In order to increase your ranking, you’ll need to get likes on your profile from Full Members+. If someone decides to lie and falsely leaves positive feedback on alts, we will be able to identify alts and abuser users.

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[LoyceV]

I don't think this adds anything useful to the Merit system, and will lead to a whole new level of abuse.

When there are a lot of dislikes on posts, it will automatically alarm the moderator to remove the comment.

This forum gives users the freedom to express unpopular opinions. If you don't like someone's posts, Ignore them, but don't take away their right to express whatever they want. If it's spam, report it.

[o_e_l_e_o]

In overall, we will create statistics of high quality and low quality posters that will help us to identify spammers.

In theory, it's a good idea. In practice, it doesn't work.

Take a look at Reddit. The upvote/downvote system is supposed to be used for "objectively high quality" and "objectively low quality" posts. In reality, it is used to upvote anything which the user agrees with, and downvote anything they disagree with, creating an echo chamber of popular ideas and silencing anyone who says anything even slightly out of the mainstream. One of the best things about this forum is the freedom of speech it gives its users. This system would threaten that.

When there are a lot of dislikes on posts, it will automatically alarm the moderator to remove the comment.

We shouldn't be removing posts because people don't like the content, because as above, that would threaten the very nature of this forum. We should be removing posts because they are of low quality, and it is far easier to do that by just hitting the "report" button than it is by waiting for 10/20/50 people to "dislike" a post.

[Charles-Tim]

You need to read the quote below by theymos. What will be the difference between merit and demerit, and what you are suggesting. theymos had a reason he did not included demerit while merit alone has been keeping the forum healthy with quality posts.

There is currently no such thing as a "demerit". I'm hoping that the positive merits alone will be fine. I could add demerits pretty easily later on if necessary, though.

We can have:
1.   Like (good post)
2.   Dislike (bad post)
3.   Haha (not spammy but funny post) or any other idea for neutral comment.

This forum is not cryptotalk.org that is completely centralized and ban people (especially, the English board posters) anyhow they want. It has been the forum I have ever seen in my life that ban good posters while new posters are the ones posting with many poor posts.

[acroman08]

We can have:
1.   Like (good post)
2.   Dislike (bad post)
3.   Haha (not spammy but funny post) or any other idea for neutral comment.

other than the dislike button being abused by angry members for personal grudges, quarrel, dispute, etc... I feel that this will be abused by scammers giving upvotes to their thread post to possibly entice newbies looking for something to buy something in the forum into thinking that the scammer's service is trustworthy. and yeah, just like what LoyceV says this implementation will be open to a whole new level of abuse.

[witcher_sense]

We can have:
1.   Like (good post)
2.   Dislike (bad post)
3.   Haha (not spammy but funny post) or any other idea for neutral comment.

Let us imagine that your proposed system was implemented. I don't really like the idea you are proposing for some reason, and I will not press like on your post. Your post is well-written and cannot be considered spammy, so I will not press dislike either. I don't see anything funny in what you posted, so the haha button is not appropriate in this case. Instead of expressing the aforementioned attitudes through pressing corresponding buttons, I will therefore express my thoughts and ideas via neutral comments. Moreover, on a discussion forum, it is considered natural to discuss thoughts and ideas. The system you are proposing discourages discussions and encourages spam of another sort, spamming via emojis that don't imply any constructive discussion.

[arwin100]

We implemented merit system back in January 24, 2018. Personally, I think that merit played an important role in partly improving the posts quality but seems it’s still not enough.
Recently, there are a lot of complains regarding to low post quality, more newbie restrictions, etc.

Since theymos doesn’t want to apply more restrictions on newbies (and that’s logical) and wants to keep this forum newbie-friendly, I came up with an idea to implement “Reactions on posts”.

We can have:
1.   Like (good post)
2.   Dislike (bad post)
3.   Haha (not spammy but funny post) or any other idea for neutral comment.

Reactions on comments

The positive side of this implementation can be that bitcointalk members will be able to react on each-others posts. In overall, we will create statistics of high quality and low quality posters that will help us to identify spammers. When there are a lot of dislikes on posts, it will automatically alarm the moderator to remove the comment.

Feedbacks on profile

Users will be able to leave positive and negative feedback regarding to post quality (i.e. likes and dislikes) on user’s profile. How will it work? Well, it will help users to rank up along with activity and merit. Of course, requirements to rank up will be much lower compared to number of mertis and activity. This scheme is similar of invite system but very different, you are able to register without invite but you have to gain recommendation in order to rank up. What will be the advantage of this action? In order to increase your ranking, you’ll need to get likes on your profile from Full Members+. If someone decides to lie and falsely leaves positive feedback on alts, we will be able to identify alts and abuser users.

This is not facebook or twitter and merit has been introduced already so I think it's enough to give a merit if you think the post is helpful or relevant to read,  and I don't think it will be helpful since this suggestion can be used for certain abuse.

[Pmalek]

Reactions on comments

The positive side of this implementation can be that bitcointalk members will be able to react on each-others posts. In overall, we will create statistics of high quality and low quality posters that will help us to identify spammers. When there are a lot of dislikes on posts, it will automatically alarm the moderator to remove the comment.

This can be abused in several different ways. Let's say I don't like you. I dislike every post you make. I tell all my friends and even members of my local forum to dislike everything you write. I even go as far as offering some incentive for members to dislike your posts. Such an organized group would make you look like a spammer and have your posts deleted. If the mods don't delete your comments based on our organized dislikes, it means they aren't respecting the system they implemented, however bad or good it is.   

Feedbacks on profile

Users will be able to leave positive and negative feedback regarding to post quality (i.e. likes and dislikes) on user’s profile. How will it work? Well, it will help users to rank up along with activity and merit.

The rank up requirements have to be the same for everyone. Doesn't seem fair to introduce a system that measures some sort of popularity among Full Members+ in order to rank. Be it faster or slower. 

This scheme is similar of invite system but very different, you are able to register without invite but you have to gain recommendation in order to rank up. What will be the advantage of this action? In order to increase your ranking, you’ll need to get likes on your profile from Full Members+. If someone decides to lie and falsely leaves positive feedback on alts, we will be able to identify alts and abuser users.

Can I rank up faster if I show my boobs
This is again adding popularity into the equation. Those who are more popular (for whatever reason) will get more upvotes and can rank up faster than those who aren't as popular. You might say, the merit system is not any different. But it is. Even those who the community dislikes are rewarded merits if they have the needed knowledge and skills.

Quickseller has a -13 trust rating, but he has earned almost 1000 merits. I immediately thought of him because I came across posts of his that are good. The reasons why he is distrusted aren't imported in this discussion.   

[DdmrDdmr]

<…>

The "Like" seems like a subset of what Merits act as (emphasis on subset), and for those with merits to hand out, it would seem weird to need to consider whether to perform one of the actions, the other, or both on the same post.

Truth be told, at some point though, quite soon after joining the forum, I did ponder something similar to a certain degree (see an idea to democratize merit assignment to all levels (complementary)), that would convert positive votes to merits ... Of course, back then, I still wasn’t aware of how often and easily alt accounts were created, which makes the system easily playable, and prone to being rigged if there in an incentive.

The "Dislike" does not equate a report to moderator, and therefore should bear no weight on post removal. Probably, from a stimulus point of view, it’ better not to receive merits that collect dislikes.

Likely, the system in the altcoin section would lead to post receiving likes quite easily. After all, likes would be free, and it would probably act as a social tool to try to counter the lack of merits received there. It probably would not mark spammers there, as not that many non-spamers roam some of those threads.

[The Cryptovator]

Not agree with all of your ideas. This isn't Facebook to react Haha. It will lead to more trolls on the forum. If a post is supposed to be removed based on dislike, then it will be very easy to manipulate. Then again users will target other users, which will prevent freedom of speech. Because I am writing against your opinion if you or some other users do not like then simply it would be removed by dislike.

The merit system is working fine for me. Someone always will complain about whatever you implement on the forum. So it's no different for the merit system as well. Just let's help the forum by reporting spam posts and keep a role to build a decent forum.

[SFR10]

In addition to all of the above valid points ^{[e.g. abuse]}, I would like to point to the following things:

In overall, we will create statistics of high quality and low quality posters that will help us to identify spammers.

Not all low-quality posters are considered spammers ^{[the opposite can be said for a few high-quality members in this forum]}...
^{- I believe the current system [read > judge > report] leads to a clearer image than if they were to go with your proposal.}

If someone decides to lie and falsely leaves positive feedback on alts, we will be able to identify alts and abuser users.

Given how creative they've been in recent months/years, I strongly believe that none of us would be able to accurately identify alt account/s of those that try to abuse the system ^{[we might get some but not all of them]}...
^{- Since it's going to be subjective, then it's a grey area and that complicates everything.}

[hilariousetc]

We implemented merit system back in January 24, 2018. Personally, I think that merit played an important role in partly improving the posts quality but seems it’s still not enough.
Recently, there are a lot of complains regarding to low post quality, more newbie restrictions, etc.

Since theymos doesn’t want to apply more restrictions on newbies (and that’s logical) and wants to keep this forum newbie-friendly, I came up with an idea to implement “Reactions on posts”.

We can have:
1.   Like (good post)
2.   Dislike (bad post)
3.   Haha (not spammy but funny post) or any other idea for neutral comment.

Reactions on comments

The positive side of this implementation can be that bitcointalk members will be able to react on each-others posts. In overall, we will create statistics of high quality and low quality posters that will help us to identify spammers. When there are a lot of dislikes on posts, it will automatically alarm the moderator to remove the comment.

The trouble with disliking a post is it will just lead to abuse as people will auto-dislike the posts of a user they don't like. They could even use bots and multiple accounts to do this just to get the post reported. If a post is bad then it should just be brought to the attention of the mod via reporting it. As for a 'like' button I wouldn't be against it but that's kinda what the merit function is for, though I know not everyone has a lot of merit and sometimes you can like a post for being funny or whatnot without wanting to merit it. I would just encourage users to reports posts they think are spam or bad, but I also think we should still crack down on poorly run campaigns that are paying them to make the mess in the first place which would cut down on a lot of rubbish. Some perks for people who make a high volume of accurate reports would also be beneficial as a reward for reporting as currently it's a thankless task so most people probably don't bother. More people would probably report things if there was some advantage for doing so.

[ShowOff]

Thank you for voicing your idea for consideration of the forum admin even though I am 99% sure the idea will not come true.

I think we have to accept the fact that we must continue to do the same work to eradicate spam posts that are scattered across various board in this forum. I don't think this forum should be turned into a social media like Facebook, YouTube, where people can hit the like or dislike button on user published posts. Indirectly, your idea might be more easily abused by trolls who actually don't like someone. So I don't think this idea will solve the problem of low quality and spam posts. I just think that we should have more time to report any spam discoveries and low-quality posts to delete. These are just my thoughts.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

OP, you're no newcomer to this forum and I'm surprised you're coming up with this suggestion--because it's been suggested and summarily discarded a number of times over the past couple of years.  A like/dislike/ha ha system just isn't appropriate for this forum, where there's a ton of abuse (and potential for it) going on.

It's already been said multiple times, but we've got the merit system to reward high-quality posts.  True, a lot of members might now have enough sMerits to reward every post they like, but overall I don't think it's that important.  If a post is truly good, chances are that someone with enough sMerits to blow will merit it.

[ReiMomo]

I agree with them, it will I guess lead to abuse after all.

Even the merit system has been got abused by many others even it is limited by the individual, how come this dislike and like the system will not.
It's an extreme waste of time and not a good idea mate, let's consider the negative consequences that may occur once this is implemented.

We know that not all members here having LQ to each other for sure they will use that system for their personal emotions. Just like, oh I will react to this post by "like" because this user is my friend even the post is not good. Or, I hate this user, I react "dislike". Something like that is turned into a nonsense system once it is implemented.

If you will notice the Reddit platform, there are too many abuses on their upvote system, upvote buying, it will potentially do the same like that.

[HeRetiK]

I would dislike this post if I could

While likes / dislikes (or up and downvotes) seem to work fairly well in some communities (HN) it's very prone to brigading (Reddit) or creating echo chambers (Reddit, Facebook). Worse still, given the financial aspect of cryptocurrencies, the incentive to move the conversation in your favor or to silence critics is probably worse on Bitcointalk than in most other communities.

Additionally I feel like this would undermine the merit system, which IMO has a great advantage over classical upvote / downvote setups: Limited supply. You think twice before meriting a post, and when you do it, it's because you mean it. Or at least that's how I personally handle it anyway.

A set of neutral reaction buttons like "Haha" could be fun though, but I'm afraid it would add too much clutter.

[sheenshane]

IMO, that idea is in conflict with the current system we have, the merit system, and also those users who always reported spam posts.

It's very simple to determine spam if this your concern and raise this proposal, report the post and let the MODs decide that post if is spam, there's no need to have this like and dislike feature on the forum.  But probably good for a neutral one, I like the "haha" reaction, it might good if you will react "haha" than if you will type the abbreviation words, "LOL".  instead, directly react to the post without any benefit to the author.

For now, I can see the forum is fine and there's no need to have this feature it seems already we have a good one.

[LTU_btc]

Well, some forums allow to click "like" on posts and it's quite useful thing. When user agree or like someone's post, he don't have to reply to that post with basic reply like "I agree..." or something similar, he simply can click "like button. But here, I don't think such thing would be useful. We already have merits which do pretty much same task. And dislike, I don't think such thing would be useful. If post is really so bad, probably it should be reported. If you simply don't agree with other opinion, it's not a reason to dislike post. And "haha" reaction, c'mon, it's not Facebook, I don't think such thing is needed.
And about additional system to rank up, I don't think we should make things more complicated. IMO, merit system is fully enough for rank up.

[Laudanum]

Who decides what denotes a good post and bad post.

I mean merit is a bag of shit at best that has no meaning. At worst is a free speech crushing bad post endorsing scammers tool.
I believe the latter and have proven it several times.

These metrics are meaningless unless you have strict transparent criteria to measure posts against.
Then you can only entrust the smartest and most intelligent to allocate the merits.
How else would a person know or appraise the post as valuable aka assisting in some discernable way to to reach the optimal solution to a problem or question posed by the OP?

Even then wtf has that got to do with being financially trustworthy?

You could use you method to locate obvious spammers but it could also be abused.
It is likely more valuable than the merit system because it does not tie in with the trust system which is one of the most dangerous parts of the flawed design. 

Both are pretty useless.
They work better on other forum where there is no direct financial gain worth abusing them for.

Here all the most greedy and determined with eventually game it to their own advantage just like the merit system here

Notice the ones with all the merits ( they gave each other and all the trust includes those merits allowed them to give each other) all have the highest paid sig and other positions to milk the forum?

That's what happens when you have a sloppy system full of holes.